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Who’s in Charge Here? The Illusions of Church Infallibility
White Horse Inn Blog ^ | Jun.13, 2012 | Michael Horton

Posted on 06/13/2012 2:59:02 PM PDT by Gamecock

In my experience with those who wrestle with conversion to Roman Catholicism—at least those who have professed faith in the gospel, the driving theological issue is authority. How can I be certain that what I believe is true? The gospel of free grace through the justification of sinners in Christ alone moves to the back seat. Instead of the horse, it becomes the cart. Adjustments are made in their understanding of the gospel after accepting Rome’s arguments against sola scriptura. I address these remarks to friends struggling with that issue.

Reformation Christians can agree with Augustine when he said that he would never have known the truth of God’s Word apart from the catholic church. As the minister of salvation, the church is the context and means through which we come to faith and are kept in the faith to the end. When Philip found an Ethiopian treasury secretary returning from Jerusalem reading Isaiah 53, he inquired, “Do you understand what you are reading?” “How can I,” the official replied, “unless someone guides me?” (Ac 8:30-31). Explaining the passage in the light of its fulfillment in Christ, Philip baptized the man who then “went on his way rejoicing” (v 39).

Philip did not have to be infallible; he only had to communicate with sufficient truth and clarity the infallible Word.

For many, this kind of certainty, based on a text, is not adequate. We have to know—really know—that what we believe is an infallible interpretation of an ultimate authority. The churches of the Reformation confess that even though some passages are more difficult to understand, the basic narratives, doctrines and commands of Scripture—especially the message of Christ as that unfolds from Genesis to Revelation—is so clearly evident that even the unlearned can grasp it.

For the Reformers, sola scriptura did not mean that the church and its official summaries of Scripture (creeds, confessions, catechisms, and decisions in wider assemblies) had no authority. Rather, it meant that their ministerial authority was dependent entirely on the magisterial authority of Scripture. Scripture is the master; the church is the minister.

The following theses summarize some of the issues that people should wrestle with before embracing a Roman Catholic perspective on authority.

1. The Reformers did not separate sola scriptura (by Scripture alone) from solo Christo (Christ alone), sola gratia (by grace alone), sola fide (through faith alone). As Herman Bavinck said, “Faith in Scripture rises or falls with faith in Christ.” Revealed from heaven, the gospel message itself (Christ as the central content of Scripture) is as much the basis for the Bible’s authority as the fact that it comes from the Father through the inspiration of the Spirit. Jesus Christ, raised on the third day, certified his divine authority. Furthermore, he credited the Old Testament writings as “scripture,” equating the words of the prophets with the very word of God himself and commissioned his apostles to speak authoritatively in his name. Their words are his words; those who receive them also receive the Son and the Father. So Scripture is the authoritative Word of God because it comes from the unerring Father, concerning the Son, in the power of the Spirit. Neither the authority of the Bible nor that of the church can stand apart from the truth of Christ as he is clothed in his gospel.

2. Every covenant is contained in a canon (like a constitution). The biblical canon is the norm for the history of God’s saving purposes in Christ under the old and new covenants. The Old Testament canon closed with the end of the prophetic era, so that Jesus could mark a sharp division between Scripture and the traditions of the rabbis (Mk 7:8). The New Testament canon was closed at the end of the apostolic era, so that even during that era the Apostle Paul could warn the Corinthians against the “super-apostles” by urging, “Do not go beyond what is written” (1 Co 4:6). While the apostles were living, the churches were to “maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you” (1 Co 11:2), “…either by our spoken word or by our letter” (2 Th 2:15). There were indeed written and unwritten traditions in the apostolic church, but only those that eventually found their way by the Spirit’s guidance into the New Testament are now for us the apostolic canon. The apostles (extraordinary ministers) laid the foundation and after them workers (ordinary ministers) build on that foundation (1 Co 3:10). The apostles could appeal to their own eye-witness, direct, and immediate vocation given to them by Christ, while they instructed ordinary pastors (like Timothy) to deliver to others what they had received from the apostles. As Calvin noted, Rome and the Anabaptists were ironically similar in that they affirmed a continuing apostolic office. In this way, both in effect made God’s Word subordinate to the supposedly inspired prophets and teachers of today.

3. Just as the extraordinary office of prophets and apostles is qualitatively distinct from that of ordinary ministers, the constitution (Scripture) is qualitatively distinct from the Spirit-illumined but non-inspired courts (tradition) that interpret it. Thus, Scripture is magisterial in its authority, while the church’s tradition of interpretation is ministerial.

4. To accept these theses is to embrace sola scriptura, as the Reformation understood it.

5. This is precisely the view that we find in the church fathers. First, it is clear enough from their descriptions (e.g., the account in Eusebius) that the fathers did not create the canon but received and acknowledged it. (Even Peter acknowledged Paul’s writings as “Scripture” in 2 Peter 3:16, even though Paul clearly says in Galatians that he did not receive his gospel from or seek first the approval of any of the apostles, since he received it directly from Christ.) The criteria they followed indicates this: To be recognized as “Scripture,” a purported book had to be well-attested as coming from the apostolic circle. Those texts that already had the widest and earliest acceptance in public worship were easily recognized by the time Athanasius drew up the first list of all 27 NT books in 367. Before this even, many of these books were being quoted as normative scripture by Clement of Rome, Origin, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and others. Of his list, Athanasius said that “holy Scripture is of all things most sufficient for us” (NPNF2, 4:23). Also in the 4th century Basil of Caesarea instructed, “Believe those things which are written; the things which are not written, seek not…It is a manifest defection from the faith, a proof of arrogance, either to reject anything of what is written, or to introduce anything that is not” (“On the Holy Spirit,” NPNF2, 8:41). Second, although the fathers also acknowledge tradition as a ministerially authoritative interpreter, they consistently yield ultimate obedience to Scripture. For example, Augustine explains that the Nicene Creed is binding because it summarizes the clear teaching of Scripture (On the Nicene Creed: A Sermon to the Catechumens, 1).

6. Roman Catholic scholars acknowledge that the early Christian community in Rome was not unified under a single head. (Paul, for example, reminded Timothy of the gift he was given when the presbytery laid its hands on him in his ordination: 1 Tim 4:14). In fact, in the Roman Catholic-Anglican dialogue the Vatican acknowledged that “the New Testament texts offer no sufficient basis for papal primacy” and that they contain “no explicit record of a transmission of Peter’s leadership” (“Authority in the Church” II, ARCIC, para 2, 6). So one has to accept papal authority exclusively on the basis of subsequent (post-apostolic) claims of the Roman bishop, without scriptural warrant. There is no historical succession from Peter to the bishops of Rome. First, as Jerome observed in the 4th-century, “Before attachment to persons in religion was begun at the instigation of the devil, the churches were governed by the common consultation of the elders,” and Jerome goes so far as to suggest that the introduction of bishops as a separate order above the presbyters was “more from custom than from the truth of an arrangement by the Lord” (cited in the Second Helvetic Confession, Ch 18). Interestingly, even the current pope acknowledges that presbyter and episcipos were used interchangeably in the New Testament and in the earliest churches (Called to Communion, 122-123).

7. Ancient Christian leaders of the East gave special honor to the bishop of Rome, but considered any claim of one bishop’s supremacy to be an act of schism. Even in the West such a privilege was rejected by Gregory the Great in the sixth century. He expressed offense at being addressed by a bishop as “universal pope”: “a word of proud address that I have forbidden….None of my predecessors ever wished to use this profane word ['universal']….But I say it confidently, because whoever calls himself ‘universal bishop’ or wishes to be so called, is in his self-exaltation Antichrist’s precursor, for in his swaggering he sets himself before the rest” (Gregory I, Letters; tr. NPNF 2 ser.XII. i. 75-76; ii. 170, 171, 179, 166, 169, 222, 225).

8. Nevertheless, building on the claims of Roman bishops Leo I and Galsius in the 5th century, later bishops of Rome did claim precisely this “proud address.” Declaring themselves Christ’s replacement on earth, they claimed sovereignty (“plenitude of power”) over the world “to govern the earthly and heavenly kingdoms.” At the Council of Reims (1049) the Latin Church claimed for the pope the title “pontifex universalis“—precisely the title identified by Gregory as identifying one who “in his self-exaltation [is] Antichrist’s precursor….” Is Pope Gregory the Great correct, or are his successors?

9. Papal pretensions contributed to the Great Schism in 1054, when the churches of the East formally excommunicated the Church of Rome, and the pope reacted in kind.

10. The Avignon Papacy (1309-76) relocated the throne to France and was followed by the Western Schism (1378-1417), with three rival popes excommunicating each other and their sees. No less than the current Pope wrote, before his enthronement, “For nearly half a century, the Church was split into two or three obediences that excommunicated one another, so that every Catholic lived under excommunication by one pope or another, and, in the last analysis, no one could say with certainty which of the contenders had right on his side. The Church no longer offered certainty of salvation; she had become questionable in her whole objective form–the true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution” (Principles of Catholic Theology, 196).

11. Medieval debates erupted over whether Scripture, popes or councils had the final say. Great theologians like Duns Scotus and Pierre D’Ailly favored sola scriptura. Papalists argued that councils had often erred and contradicted themselves, so you have to have a single voice to arbitrate the infallible truth. Conciliarists had no trouble pointing out historical examples of popes contradicting each other, leading various schisms, and not even troubling to keep their unbelief and reckless immorality private. Only at the Council of Trent was the papalist party officially affirmed in this dispute.

12. Papal claims were only strengthened in reaction to the Reformation, all the way to the promulgation of papal infallibility at the First Vatican Council in 1870. At that Council, Pope Pius IX could even respond to modern challenges to his authority by declaring, “I am tradition.”

13. Though inspired by God, Scripture cannot be sufficient. It is a dark, obscure, and mysterious book (rendered more so by Rome’s allegorizing exegesis). An infallible canon needs an infallible interpreter. This has been Rome’s argument. The insufficiency of Scripture rests on its lack of clarity. True it is that the Bible is a collection of texts spread across many centuries, brimming with a variety of histories, poetry, doctrines, apocalyptic, and laws. However, wherever it has been translated in the vernacular and disseminated widely, barely literate people have been able to understand its central message. Contrast this with the libraries full of decreetals and encyclicals, councilor decisions and counter-decisions, bulls and promulgations. Any student of church history recognizes that in this case the teacher is often far more obscure than the text. It’s no wonder that Rome defines faith as fides implicita: taking the church’s word for it. For Rome, faith is not trust in Jesus Christ according to the gospel, but yielding assent and obedience unreservedly simply to everything the church teaches as necessary to salvation. There are many hazards associated with embracing an infallible text without an infallible interpreter. However, the alternative is not greater certainty and clarity about the subject matter, but a sacrifice of the intellect and an abandonment of one’s personal responsibility for one’s commitments to the decisions and acts of others.

14. Those of us who remain Reformed must examine the Scriptures and the relevant arguments before concluding that Rome’s claims are not justified and its teaching is at variance with crucial biblical doctrines. A Protestant friend in the midst of being swayed by Rome’s arguments exclaims, “That’s exactly why I can’t be a Protestant anymore. Without an infallible magisterium everyone believes whatever he chooses.” At this point, it’s important to distinguish between a radical individualism (believing whatever one chooses) and a personal commitment in view of one’s ultimate authority. My friend may be under the illusion that his or her decision is different from that, but it’s not. In the very act of making the decision to transfer ultimate authority from Scripture to the magisterium, he or she is weighing various biblical passages and theological arguments. The goal (shifting the burden of responsibility from oneself to the church) is contradicted by the method. At this point, one cannot simply surrender to a Reformed church or a Roman church; they must make a decision after careful personal study. We’re both in the same shoes.

15. Most crucially, Rome’s ambitious claims are tested by its faithfulness to the gospel. If an apostle could pronounce his anathema on anyone—including himself or an angel from heaven—who taught a gospel different from the one he brought to them (Gal 1:8-9), then surely any minister or church body after the apostles is under that threat. First, Paul was not assuming that the true church is beyond the possibility of error. Second, he placed himself under the authority of that Word. Just read the condemnations from the Council of Trent below. Do they square with the clear and obvious teaching of Scripture? If they do not, then the choice to be made is between the infallible writings of the apostles and those after the apostles and since who claim to be the church’s infallible teachers.

As I have pointed out in previous posts, the frustration with the state of contemporary Protestantism is understandable. I feel it every day. Yet those who imagine that they will escape the struggle between the “already” and the “not yet,” the certainty of a promise and the certainty of possession, the infallibility of God’s Word and the fallibility of its appointed teachers, are bound to be disappointed wherever they land. As Calvin counseled on the matter, Scripture alone is sufficient; “better to limp along this path than to dash with all speed outside it.”


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: agendadrivenfreeper; bloggersandpersonal; michaelhorton; reformation; romancatholicism; whi
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To: metmom
Titanites: That is an invented conflict of those who do not trust in the Scriptures.

No, it's actually Holy Spirit inspired Scripture written by Paul. Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

The Holy Spirit inspired Scripture written by Paul that you quoted is talking about righteousness through the law, which is correct. We are not talking of works of the law:

    Romans 3:20 20 Therefore by the <>deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
No, the works we are talking about are like in Matthew 25:31-46 where Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. Remember the questions:
    1. Did you feed the hungry?

    2. Did you clothe the naked?

    3. Did you give a drink to the thirsty, etc.

And if you aren't doing those kind of works it will not be good for you:
    Matt 25:41-46 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 'for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 'I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do [it] to one of the least of these, you did not do [it] to Me.' "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
These are the same works talked about in James 2. It is surprising that people who claim to know Scripture do not know the difference between these works and works of the law.
161 posted on 06/15/2012 3:00:03 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: Petrosius; CynicalBear

If the works of the Law, handed down by God Himself couldn’t save, then what makes anyone think any rules or works they decide to add themselves are going to save?

Do Catholics get to decide for themselves what good works qualify for God to accept? Why should He accept man-made additions to His own Law?


162 posted on 06/15/2012 3:05:17 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Natural Law; metmom; boatbums; FatherofFive; NKP_Vet; Petrosius
>>The accidents of the Eucharist pass through the body, but the substance of God remains.<<

I feel really sorry for Catholics. Those of us who rely on Christ alone have Jesus in us 24/7/365 and will for eternity.

» John 17:23: Christ Himself prays to His Father: "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one." » Romans 8:10: Paul tells us, "If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin." » Galatians 2:20: Paul speaks of himself and all true Christians: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." » Ephesians 3:17-18: Referring to the "inner man," Paul mentions that he prays "that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith." » I John 3:24: John writes: "Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He has given us."

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.

Catholics claim it’s their faith be we know it’s not our faith but the faith of Christ that we are saved.

Paul says, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” Galatians 2:20

Notice it says by the faith of Christ. Not >u>my faith in Christ. It’s not our faith we rely on, it’s Christ’s faith which we were promised would sustain us. It’s not our righteousness we rely on which Catholics constantly try to impose.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:9

We aren’t even capable of having faith without Christ giving it to us. It’s His faith that He gives us by living in us.

It’s the faith of Christ in us that imparts righteousness to us and not the following of the law of the flesh that Catholics insist is what is needed for salvation. The RCC teaches that it’s by living according to the laws of the flesh that is needed for salvation. True believers are told that it’s Christ Jesus living in us that gives us that righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31

It’s God who gets the glory for it is God who works through us and not we who follow some law of the flesh. Now if each of us who truly have accepted Jesus as our savior possess the righteousness of Christ would you please tell me who has more righteousness then Christ?

163 posted on 06/15/2012 3:06:50 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: metmom
One is cleansed from all sins.

All sins that one has committed and confessed.

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
You can't confess sins you have not yet committed.

We are set free. If Catholics want to put themselves under bondage to try to live a perfect life that nobody is capable of living and try to earn heaven by their own efforts, well, have at it.

You are set free if you confess the sins committed. Catholics are not under bondage as long as they confess their sins and are truly sorry for them. If you are not confessing your sins, you are not doing it right.

164 posted on 06/15/2012 3:07:07 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: FatherofFive

Like I said. The day I see you physically eat a scroll or a book. If you take one literally you must take it all literally. I suppose you will see a door when Jesus shows up.


165 posted on 06/15/2012 3:09:13 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Titanites
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

We who have put our faith in Christ alone for salvation have been clothed in the righteousness of Christ, HIS perfect life and good works are credited to our account.

Additionally, that is the judgment of the unsaved, those who rejected Christ's finished work on the cross and appealed to their own good works to save them. God is giving them what they want.

They want to get into heaven on their good works? God will judge them by that. And it's not going to turn out well.

166 posted on 06/15/2012 3:16:26 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CTrent1564
Thanks for that theological statement from the Church of Metmom. Of course, as you are well aware, I reject the theological statements from the Church of Metmom.

It's right out of the Bible.....

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

167 posted on 06/15/2012 3:18:46 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear
"I feel really sorry for Catholics."

All I ask is what He asks; that you pray for us and love us as we and He loves you.

Peace be with you

168 posted on 06/15/2012 3:18:46 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: FatherofFive
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Phil. 2:12,13)

Yup. I'm free.

169 posted on 06/15/2012 3:21:56 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
good works are credited to our account.

Yes, good works are credited to our account. You don't have to remind God of them, as was asked here and was the question I was responding to.

Additionally, that is the judgment of the unsaved, those who rejected Christ's finished work on the cross and appealed to their own good works to save them.

Yes, without faith their good works are dead, and vice versa.

They want to get into heaven on their good works? God will judge them by that. And it's not going to turn out well.

Yes, for those without faith, that will certainly happen.

170 posted on 06/15/2012 3:24:19 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: CynicalBear

“I feel really sorry for Catholics”

Then you feel sorry Peter, Mark, John, Matthew, Luke, and the rest of the first Christians? They were all Catholic. And if you had lived before a German Monk named Luther, you would have also been a Catholic.

Deal with it partner,it’s fact.


171 posted on 06/15/2012 3:27:17 PM PDT by NKP_Vet (creep.)
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To: Titanites
Jesus didn't come to establish new works for us to do> He just elaborated on the Law, showing us what is required in intent, not just outward actions.

All He did was raise the bar.

Catholics misunderstand the Law.

For one thing, Jesus didn't come to change the Law but fulfill it.

Matthew 5:17-20 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

And the Law was never put into effect to save people anyway but rather to show us what God's standards are so that we could come to Christ for salvation.

Galatians 3:15-29 15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

"Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." = We are free from the obligation of trying to live by the Law when we've put our faith in Christ for salvation because we are now sons of God through faith.

172 posted on 06/15/2012 3:32:24 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: NKP_Vet; CynicalBear

For Catholics, everything revolves around Catholicism.

For Christians, everything revolves around Christ.


173 posted on 06/15/2012 3:37:44 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
showing us what is required in intent, not just outward actions

That contradicts the entire message of the New Testament. Salvation is by works - not works of the law, but works of faith. Faith with no action - prayer, love, taking care of your neighbor, etc. is dead and not real. Good works are the form of faith. So a man who claims faith but does not pray and live piously and charitably will die the death.

Many non-Catholics confuse St. Paul preaching against attempting salvation by the works of the Law (the Old Covenant) - "For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law" (Romans 3.28), with achieving salvation by good works in Christ. Jesus explicitly said in Matthew 7.21-23 that he will be telling the evil believers crying out "Lord, Lord" to "depart from me". Those who live the faith by being charitable to their neighbor will be welcomed into the Kingdom (Matthew 25.31-46, James 1.22-27).

Catholics misunderstand the Law.

No, they do not. It is the old covenant.

"Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

Nobody is saying that we are.

We are free from the obligation of trying to live by the Law when we've put our faith in Christ for salvation because we are now sons of God through faith.

And faith without works is dead. Don't confuse those works with "works of the Law".

174 posted on 06/15/2012 3:45:51 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: Petrosius
>> This discussion also highlights the danger of trying to interpret Scripture without proper understanding and guidance from the Church.<<

You can rely on the RCC if you want to but I’ll stay with Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

The church I belong to is much older than the RCC. It was started by the apostles.

Romans 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Colossians 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

Philemon 1:2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:

We see the RCC which was established thousands of years later this way.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

The self aggrandizing leadership in many organized religions today isn’t what God ordained.

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. You see, our way is much, much older than the apostate RCC organization and survived despite the evil oppression and persecution of the RCC. We don’t set up idols or revere mere men.

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

175 posted on 06/15/2012 3:56:19 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: NKP_Vet
>>They were all Catholic.<<

Not with a capital c they weren’t, they were part of the catholic (small c, as in universal) body of Christ as are all who have ever trusted in Christ alone. And there is no way Peter, Mark, John, Matthew, Luke, and the rest of the first Christians could possibly have been part of the RCC or any organized Catholic (Capital C, as in imposter) since there was none at the time.

176 posted on 06/15/2012 4:04:56 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Titanites
Wow.....

Just wow......

Way to misquote someone.

I did NOT say that good works are credited to our account as if to say that OUR good works are credited to our account.

I clearly and plainly said,.... and I quote.

"We who have put our faith in Christ alone for salvation have been clothed in the righteousness of Christ, HIS perfect life and good works are credited to our account."

If you're going to quote someone, do try to have enough integrity next time to quote the entire thing they say so that it is not misrepresenting their position.

177 posted on 06/15/2012 4:13:34 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Titanites

So, if you’re depending on your good works to get you in, how do you know you did enough?

And how do you know you did the right ones?

What if you come up short?

What kind of God do you serve who would leave you hanging like that in regard to your salvation and would let you come up short and send you to hell for it?


178 posted on 06/15/2012 4:15:29 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Titanites
That contradicts the entire message of the New Testament.

Really?

Matthew 5:21-22 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:27-28 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Don't confuse those works with "works of the Law".

Any works outside of the Law are sin. The Law DEFINES what good works are.

If you don't realize that the Law really teaches what Jesus taught in the Beatitudes, you don't know the Law very well. Any of the works Jesus taught in the Beatitudes are already part of the Law.

Catholics really do misunderstand the Law.

179 posted on 06/15/2012 4:23:23 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...

It’s interesting, isn’t it that Catholics continually lecture us about doing good works to get into heaven as if not one non-Catholic does any good works.

And, of course, they get to define what good works are and which ones qualify for entry into heaven.

What chutzpah.


180 posted on 06/15/2012 4:27:34 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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