Posted on 01/09/2012 9:10:42 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
If you are going to take that perspective then we are All part of the same family group - decendants of Noah, including the Arabs, so that doesn't rationalize seizing land by force and genocide for one group of descendents but not for another. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Further, if you are going to take a biblical perspective then NT prophecy tells us the Roman cleansing of the Jews from Palestine was done, by God, for the same reason he had the Jews cleanse the various tribes collectively referred to as the Cannanites from the same land. (As was the diaspora) Either way, the only claim anyone has had to the land since Joshua is force of arms. The Jews currently have right of possession but that's only good for as long as they can hold it.
Yes, it is a fact that we are all related to each other. But some of us are more closely realted than others. The laws of most states recognize that regarding inheritances.
You are more closely related to your cousin than I would be. If your cousin has no children or closer living relatives, dies and leaves an estate, you are entitled to his estate legally- and morally. I would have no rights to it- even if I killed you to acquire it and squatted in his house. It would legally and morally belong to your children.
The Jews have always had the right of possession. It was willed and commanded by HaShem (G-D). Jews do not believe in Jesus- for many reasons- nor we do not believe in a “New Testament”. There are many, many reasons for this too. For one thing, it does not even translate the original Hebrew of the Torah correctly.
Another reason why, is an example- what you stated, “then NT prophecy tells us the Roman cleansing of the Jews from Palestine was done, by God, for the same reason he had the Jews cleanse the various tribes collectively referred to as the Cannanites from the same land. “
That statement does not even make sense, as it goes against
G-D’s own commandments, is not simply inaccurate, and even goes against HaShem’s own words. To explain:
1.) The Romans did not “cleanse” Jerusalem or the rest of Israel of the Jews. It killed many, enslaved many,dispersed many....but, the two largest tribes survived, (Judah and Benjamin) as did portions of the others. That is a historical fact that well documented -even by the Romans, Josephus, and others, as well as the archeology- the facts in and on the ground. So, that is statement is an absolute falsehood. The facts speak differently from your statement.
2.) Israel is holy ground- Jerusalem in particular. The Temple Mount the most sacred. HaShem had commanded that his Temple built upon the sacred mount. It is the resting place of the Shekinah upon the earth- the Holiest place on earth. Even today, Jews don’t even dare walk upon certain portions of it.
He forbid human blood to be spilled upon it, as it would putrefy it and profane HIM.
When the Romans came in they not only destroyed the Temple, and spilled human blood upon it, but placed idols of their gods on the Temple mount, in contempt of HaShem. HaShem states in the Torah, and I believe you folks know of these Mitzvot as well:
“Thy shalt NOT have any gods before me” and Thy shalt NOT make any graven images unto me.”
Idolatry is regarded by HaShem as the gravest sin a human can commit. HaShem told Moshe Rabbienu (Moses) that this was the worst of bominations. So, why would HaShem allow HaShem forbid idols and punishes all idolators.
So why would HaShem allow idols upon HIS sacred mount, allow Himself and His holy name to be profaned, and allow it to be putrefied?
The answer is HE won’t, does not, and did not. And the Romans were punished, and remain cursed.
.... continued from past 2 posts...
If you study Torah, you are familiar with the principal of “Midda Kinnegid Midda”. HaShem taught us at Mt Sinai that this was how he runs all of creation. It means “Measure For Measure” in Hebrew. He also told us that He also communicates and renders judgements upon people and the earth through the 4 elements.
And, if you study history, you will find that every single nation, with out exception, who act against HaShem’s will, and harm Israel and the Jewish people are punished. Their governments and nations collapse, fall into financial ruin, or are completely destroyed, and they never return to their past greatness.
HE made the promise to Abraham: “I will Bless those who Bless You and Curse those who Curse You.”
-Bereshit 12:3
The result? The mighty Roman empire fell not long after, their perverse rulers went mad from their lead goblets, and since the Romans liked idols so much, they were given the curse of Mt. Vesuvious and Pompeii to remind them.
Another more recent example Of Midda Kinnegid Midda is this:
When Ariel Sharon expelled the Jews of Gaza from their homes. Approximately 10,000 Jews were made homeless, in accordance with the pressure and demands of Bush and Condoleeza Rice. The operation was being concluded on
August 29, 2005. It was strictly forbidden by HaShem, in the Torah, to give away or sell any portion of the land.
On that very day, America was hit by THE WORST natural disaster to have ever occurred in America. Hurricane Katrina hit the New Orleans area and just about 500,000 people were made homeless. And Ariel Sharon, who gave in to their demands and gave away that portion of land, ended up in a coma from which he has never woken.
and....
10,000 Jews out of a population of 6 million is a percentage of .00167.
500,000 Americans out of a population of 300 million is a percentage of .00167.
If this isn’t a clear enough warning, I don’t know what is.
This is absolute wrong. After the Bar Kochba rebellion in 132 AD, Roman Emperor Hadrian wiped out the Jews from Palestine and banned any from returning. Historian Cassius Dio makes this quite clear. I don't know why you refer to Josephus as he as long dead by that time. Your attempt at revisionism does not change history. The Jews were cleansed of Palestine just as Jesus prophesied. "Their house is a desolation".
Whether you believe in the NT testament is of no moment. If you told me you didn't believe in gravity you would still splatter if you jumped off an office building. Truth is truth. It is not surprising the NT may not agree with the Hebrew of the corrupted Masoratic text since it quotes the Septuagint which is what was used in Palestine in Jesus' day. It is interesting to note the Dead sea scrolls match the Septuagint more closely than the corrupted Masoratic text. First and second century writers (Tertullian, Origen) warn use the Jews were changing the text of their scriptures to water down the prophecies of Christ. Yet God preserved the Dead Sea Scrolls as yet another witness to the glory of his son.
I agree with the title of this thread and find Glenn Beck to be a neo yankee anti Christ
Just as the Jews were punished for failing to follow God's will both by the Babylonians and the Romans and even today by the muslims. The promise to Abraham was clear that those who shared would shared his faith in God would inherit the kingdom to brought in by his Son, the Messiah. It is those who have the faith of Abraham in God's son that are the true son's of Abraham. Today Israel is in much the same position as it was in the days of the Judges when everyone did what was right in their own eyes and they were besiged by foreign enemies. Only now, no Judge will appear to save them from their enemies. The only deliver has already come, Jesus, and it is not until he is turned to that peace, and the Kingdom will arrive. .
What you posted is just more revisionist nonsense.
Go to a Hebrew school and learn to read Hebrew- and correctly. Then read the original Hebrew scriptures. Also read the prophets in the ORIGINAL Hebrew, as well. Then you will understand what was really written, not this revisionist nonsense.
Israel will survive. It is the rest of the world that will be in real trouble. Ever read Joel 3 & 4, Ovadiah 1, or Ezekiel 36- 38 and Isaiah?
Here is a reliable English translation with the Hebrew:
http://www.ishwar.com/judaism/holy_neviim/
Hadrian may have issued all the orders he wanted, but the fact remains that the Jews were not “wiped out of Israel”. And if that is what Jesus prophecied, then his prophecy did not pan out. The archeology alone, proves that.
The tribes of Judah and Benjamin- the 2 largest tribes of Israel were not touched, and remnants of the other tribes still remained...
In fact, the descendants of Ovadiah are still living there, in the same place, as they did back then. Are you going to go to Israel and tell them that they are not who they are, and that they do not exist, just to fit your nonsense? There are so many that never left that there is even a name for them.
The term “Musta’arabim” is the term for the indigenous Jews who never left Israel. These descendants of the ancient Hebrews remained from the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70 A.D. to the First Aliyah in 1881, prior to the onset of Zionist immigration.
Israel was never “emptied” of it’s Jews. Our numbers increased and decreased with whatever invader came riding through. Even when the arabs came in, in the 6th century, there were plenty of us to kill and rule over....as there were durring the crusades- they slaughtered well over a million of us. The Christian Revisionism simply does not add up, and does not stand up to the reality- the facts. You can wish something all you want, but that does not make it real.
“The Septuagint was used in Israel during Jesus’ day”?????
Maybe by Greeks, but not by the Jews. Not just because our language was Hebrew, but because of incredible amount of mistranslations. Anyone who actually reads and understands Hebrew can see them immediately when comparing them to the original Hebrew scriptures- that is why I tell you go to a Hebrew school, learn hebrew, correctly, and you too will indeed see them. They are that obvious.
Here is one example, I am sure you will blow a gasket over it, but it is the truth, and it cannot be denied:
The Hebrew in Isaiah 7:14 reads:
Isaiah 7:14 “laken yittan adonai hu lakem oth hinneh ha-almah harah ve-yeldeth ben ve-karath shem-o immanuel.”
When translated into English, it reads:
Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore shall-give my-lord he [himself] to you sign behold the-maid conceived [is pregnant] and-beareth son and- calleth name-his immanuel.”
Now, when we get to the author of Matthew’s Gospel, we see immediately that he has altered the meaning of Hebrew words and terms in Isaiah 7:14:
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel.
Matthew’s Matthew’s translation of Isaiah 7:14 is no longer past tense, but now becomes future tense. And the Hebrew generic term for a maiden has now become the Greek term for a virgin.
In the 2nd century B.C.. the Jews pointed out these errors in the Septuagint to the Roman priests, but to no avail.
“Being criticized by many for this falsification, St. Jerome thus replies to one of his critics, Juvianus: “I know that the Jews are accustomed to meet us with the objection that in Hebrew the word Almah does not mean a virgin, but a young woman. And, to speak truth, a virgin is properly called Bethulah, but a young woman, or a girl, is not Almah, but Naarah”! (Jerome, Adv. Javianum I, 32; N&PNF, vi, 370.) This is just plain and simple fraud....and those of you who do not understand Hebrew, don’t even see it.
As for the Dead Sea scrolls, they are no where even related to the Septuagint. And now that the translations are available on line, everyone clearly sees that. And, “Jesus” is no where mentioned in them. Go read them for yourself. Everyone now can.
What you will find is that they consist of apocryphal works, prayers and legal texts and sectarian documents, and various portions of the Tanakh by a Jewish “nature” sect. I had the pleasure of seeing some of them in Canada in 1967 at Expo ‘67.
The Jews never changed our scriptures- that was specifically forbidden by HaShem and would be punishable as Blasphemy. That is why archeologists, worldwide use our writings to find things- it all pans out and proves to be true. But apart from that, there was no reason or need to. We did not, and do not accept Jesus as the Moshiach. That is why he is not in our scriptures. He did not pass the criteria. If anything, Rabbis warned people against him and other false Messiahs.
If you are wondering what the criteria is:
The Messiah is to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria before being acknowledged as the Messiah.
These specific criteria are as follows. If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah.:
1) He must be Jewish (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)
2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and
a direct male descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon.I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them
to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)
4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)
5) He must bring world peace (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)
6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve
one G-d (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)
These criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book of Ezekiel, Chapter 37:24-28:
“And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peacewith them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”
And finally, I notice that you call The land of Israel “Palestine”. The nation’s name is Israel. Why do you not refer to it as such? It was called “Palestine” by the Romans. If your name is Joe, and I invade and destroy your house, and call you Bob, what is your name?
Israel, more specifically, Yisrael, is the name G-D gave the land and its people, the nation-known as Am Yisrael. The nation of Yisrael. So, you should get the name right. After all, G-D named it, or do you disagree with G-D, or that G-D named it Israel?
Jesus was quoting the LXX which uses the Greek word for virgin because the 70 Jewish scholars who spoke biblical Hebrew as their native tongue and lived 2200 years closer to the event than you translated it that way because Isaiah 7:14 obviously means virgin. Almah can mean virgin and the context clearly indicates virgin. Isaiah is describing a "sign" or miracle ("ot") and a young maiden giving birth is not a sign but a virgin giving birth is quite a sign. Almah, just as Tulah can mean a young maiden or a virgin and in Isaiah it obviously means virgin or the verse makes no sense. The translators of LXX saw this obvious fact.You apparently can't.
"In the 2nd century B.C.. the Jews pointed out these errors in the Septuagint to the Roman priests, but to no avail. “Being criticized by many for this falsification, St. Jerome thus replies to one of his critics, Juvianus: “I know that the Jews are accustomed to meet us with the objection that in Hebrew the word Almah does not mean a virgin, but a young woman. And, to speak truth, a virgin is properly called Bethulah, but a young woman, or a girl, is not Almah, but Naarah”! (Jerome, Adv. Javianum I, 32; N&PNF, vi, 370.) This is just plain and simple fraud....and those of you who do not understand Hebrew, don’t even see it."
There were no Roman priests in the 2nd century BC (Duhhhh) and even if you meant the 2nd century AD, St. Jerome wasn't even born until the 4th century AD. You clearly don't have a clue what what you are talking about. Sorry but you can't revise history like you revise your scriptures in order to deny your Messiah. You might want to find a different source to cut and paste your long winded nonsense from because the one you are using is embarrassing you tremendously. This is what happens when one hates their Messiah.
So was sacrificing your infants in the fire to the God Molech but that didn't stop you. If they were willing to burn up their children I don't think they'd have much of a problem with revising their scriptures. God's prohibitions notwithstanding.
Jews did not worship the G-D Molech, and were specifically instructed not to associate, or emulate those who do. That also goes with the worship of Baal.
You are confusing us with the Amonites, Phoenicians and the main body of Canaanites who were pagans. Molech was their pagan god.
In fact, the Torah teaches that the test of Avrohom binding Issac was a lesson not just in obeying Hand trusting in HaShem, but also an instruction that awakened Avrohoms heart-through his emotions that life was sacred and that HaShem forbid sacrificing children.
Avrohom went on to teach this to the Hebrews- the Jews. And he was able to teach it from his heart- as he learned from the pain he felt when he was commanded to bind Issac.
This was one of the Mitzvot that separated the Jew from the pagan.
“Thou shalt not give of thy seed to cause to pass through the fire for Moloch.” Leviticus 18:10
Again, attend a Hebrew school and learn the Hebrew- correctly- then you will understand the scriptures.
The Jews did not revise their scriptures. There was no need to. This was HaShem’s word. What is there to argue? You’re going to argue with G-D????
The many, many artifacts found, and especially the old scrolls- like the Dead Sea scrolls and many others, prove this most readily. The desert and the knowledge of preservation allowed our artifacts and scriptures to be remarkably preserved. You can see them displayed in Jerusalem, Israel.
Now, save the rest of the blood libels and other anti-semitic nonsense for after sundown tomorrow night. It is now time light the Shabbas candles, and observe Shabbat. By the way, did I mention to you that I study at a yeshiva, and becoming a Rabbi Perhaps I forgot.....
Shabbat Shalom.
Now, save the rest of the blood libels and other anti-semitic nonsense for after sundown tomorrow night. It is now time light the Shabbas candles, and observe Shabbat. By the way, did I mention to you that I study at a yeshiva, and becoming a Rabbi Perhaps I forgot.....
Shabbat Shalom.
Better learn your scriptures and read your tanakh. Jer 32:35; Jer 37:30-31
Jer 37:30-31 should read Jer 7:30-31 (typo)
Shauva Tov,
Don’t worry about my Torah learning. that is well taken care of. Don’t worry about my Torah learning. That is well taken care of. Worry about your correctly translating, and understanding the Hebrew, and what the scriptures actually mean and teach..
What you are referring to is a time when Israel had one bad king after another, and false prophets led people astray. The Erev Rav among us corrupted themselves with the pagan culture that surrounded them- which is why HaShem commanded us to be separate. But, that does not mean that tribes of Jews were rushing to sacrifice their firstborns to a pagan god. That is not what happened.
It was much like when the Erev Rav made the golden calf. It was only 10% of the Jewish people- about 3,000 of the 3 million at Mt Sinai. These souls are always among us. In this current period of Jewish history, we know that the the descendants of the Erev Rav are the leftists among us. They are not Torah observant, and always work against us. That is why HaShem warned Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses) not to bring the Erev Rav out of Egypt with us. But, Moshe did anyway, he had a compassionate heart.
In any groups of people, there will be those who go off the dereck- the path- like the Erev Rav among us. That is why HaShem gave us Torah. It is the manual of life, and when it is followed you live in accordance with HaShem, and evolve closer to Him. And, when you sin and return, you are forgiven.
What you negated to mention with your reference to Jeremiah, is that HaShem forgives the Jewish People after He punishes them and they return to the path. Even though the Jewish People will sin, as he made us a “stiff necked people”, HaShem promised and gave His sacred word never to abandon, or forsake us. HaShem acts with great Chesed.
The Torah teaches us that HaShem does not expect people to be like him. He knows we can’t ever be. The created can never be greater than the Creator. Thus, people will sin. All that is needed for a Jew to be forgiven is to do Tzdakah and T’shuva. It is, exactly as HaShem said, a NEVER ending sacred Covenant with the Jewish people.
That is why we are still here, and will always survive and actually thrive, despite the incredible odds against us. HaShem Blessed us. And, if you look at Israel, despite all its problems, it is a real miracle of a tiny nation.
That, by the way, is the real message of Jeremiah, and, of his warning to the Jewish people: Be wary of false prophets and Messiahs.
The Covenant between HaShem and the Jewish people will never end:
(Ecc 13:14)”Whatever G-d decrees shall be forever; nothing shall be added to it nothing shall be taken away.”
(Is 40:18)” The word of the L-rd shall stand firm forever”
(Num 19:21)”and it shall be law for all time”
(Num 15:14)”. . .There shall be one law for you and for the Ger(Convert), it shall be a law for all time throughout the ages.”
(Num 15:21)”You shall make a gift to the L-rd from the first yield of your baking, throughout the ages”
(Ex 31:16)”The Israelites people shall keep the Shabbat, observing the Shabbat throughout the ages as a covenant for all time.”
(Dt 4:2) “Every word which the I command you. You shall observe and do. Thou shalt not add unto it nor diminish it”
(Ps 119)
(Dt 4:40) “Observe His laws and commandments, which I enjoin upon you this day, that it may go well with you and your children after you and you may live in the land that the L-rd your G-d is assigning to you for all time.”
(Num 15:23) “All that the L-rd commanded you by the hand of Moses from the day that the L-rd gave commandments and onward throughout your generations.”
(Ex 12:17) “And you shall observe the (commandment of) Unleavened bread . . .you shall observe this day throughout your generations as an ordinance forever.”
(Is 49:14) “ But Zion says, The L-rd has forsaken me, and my L-rd has forgotten me. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yes, even they may forget, but I will not forget you”
And when it was all said and done you chose the golden calf of Aaron over the God of Abraham. Even to this day. Glad to see you looked up Jeremiah for the first time and had to admit I was right.
Incorrect!!!!
Again, it was not all of the Jews. Get an ACCURATE English, Rabbinic translation of the Hebrew Torah and READ it. Apparently, whatever it is that you are learning this nonsense from, is incorrect and VERY different from the original Hebrew scriptures.
Then, Read Shemot. Of the 3 million Jews at Mt. Sinai, only 3,000 committed the sin of the golden calf. They were the Erev Rav. Their wives knew that their husbands were sinning, and refused to give over their gold jewelry to make the idol, So HaShem did not punish them with their husbands. Instead, He Blessed them.
So, to say that all of the Jews threw their children into the fire of Molech, or that all of the Jews participated in making and worshipping the golden calf is grossly incorrect.
And, to say that the Jewish people worship/ choose the golden calf today, over HaShem, is not only as grossly incorrect, it is a purely hateful, anti-semitic remark.
If the shoe fits. It's been the case throughout their entire histroy. All the prophets warned but they were just killed for it. From the beginning until today. To reject the Messaiah is to worship the golden calf. "If you reject me you reject the father who sent me." It is absolutely true. And my interpretation of Hebrew has been better than yours on this thread so far. You lost the Isaiah 7:14 arguments, You lost the Jerome arguments (you didn't even know what century he lived in), You lost the Molech point (you didn't even know your own scriptures). Some Rabbi. Now I'm done. You can have the last word. I sure feel sorry for those schoolgirls being harrassed in the west bank. Boy, that's sooooo manly.
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