Posted on 10/17/2010 4:29:22 PM PDT by Stourme
I'm very curious as to how the various religions that use the Bible as a guide, view Revelation chapter 11.
If you don't have or don't know of an official doctrine, feel free to state your opinion.
Revelation 11 states that two prophets will be killed in Jerusalem three days before the second coming. Revelation 11:7-11
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
I find it interesting that they will not be burried. Muslim doctrine is that the spirit of Muslims re-enter the body just before burial. And it's at burial that they are judged. Non-Muslims go straight to hell. So it makes sense that the people that kill these two prophets don't care if they are burried or not. Because by Muslim doctrine, their spirits have already been sent to hell.
John saw this in vision, 2000 years ago.
Your thought?
1. The time frame. John saw that the people of the world could view these events.
2. The world won't recognize them as being prophets. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity recognize Enoch and Moses as prophets.
3. Regardless of your personal view of who they might be, can you image the collective moan of all the world, when they see those two people stand up after being dead for 3 days? And when the realization hits them of what this means?
Gary DeMar is way off base. The problems with his views have been about extensively and debunked. His Preterist viewpoint way off.
been written about extensively
Both were taken to heaven... So they got the grace of inmortality.
One problem with this interpretation is that believing Jews are part of the Church. This leaves you with just one witness.
If I may:
(up to)v7: These two witnesses are the two olive trees; the two anointed ones spoken of in Zechariah ch 4. Maybe Enoch, maybe Moses, maybe Elijah. In fact v 5 of Rev. 11 is very reminiscent of 2 Kings ch 1 when Elijah called down fire to the captains and their 50 soldiers. One thing for sure is that man is appointed to be born of the womb once, and die the flesh death once. Enoch and Elijah never died; God took them, and God buried Moses, and satan still looks for his bones to this day, so?? Maybe Moses.
These men will be here at the same time satan (antichrist) is all set up in Jerusalem and all the world is worshiping him thinking he is the true Christ Jesus.
People will consider the two olive trees to be troublemakers
and real knuckleheads because their message is that these dopes have been duped by satan.
Now, satan has been instructed not to hurt anyone who has the seal of God in their forehead...these witnesses surely have that.(Rev. 9v 4 )
v 8: Satan will kill them in Jerusalem.
v 9: It will be televised, and everyone will see these men lying dead with no burial for three days and 1/2.
v 10: People who count antichrist as the true Christ have been tormented by the witnesses, and once they are dead they will rejoice and it will be a celebration because every one counted them as evil troublemakers.
v 11: ( I love this..I really do..)
After 3 days and a half (the same time Christ was between death and resurrection...the same time Jonah was in the great fish) the two witnesses resurrect! Great fear falls upon everyone who was fooled by antichrist...the Greek word here is epipita! A paralyzing fear because they realize in an instant that they have mistakenly worshiped satan. It is at this time that Christ and His thousands and tens of thousands return.
Christ said He would return as a thief in the night and when people least expected Him to return.
When would someone LEAST expect someone to return?
When they think He already has.
Thanks and God bless your soul.
I've heard people say that we're in for a long drought. I've also heard so say no, it only means they have the power to do it, not that they will.
I need a translation.
Girl...you are really making some folks wonder about you. : )
BTW...God could see that 7 years of antichrist may even be too much for His elect, so in Matthew 24 and in Mark 13 Christ said He had shortened the time...He reduced it to 5 months (the life cycle of a locust) and that time is recorded in Rev. ch 9 v 5.
Also Rev. ch 11 only affords 2 (two) single entities. It is whimsical and dangerous to turn a person into a whole church community. Two individuals; most likely Enoch and Elijah.
Thanks!
The two witnesses in this world right now are 1) the christian church and 2) believing jews.
So it is impossible for an ethnic Jew to become a Christian or a member of the Corpus Christi? That must be news to the disciples and especially to Paul.
The 7 year period of time of the Revelation is the last week of the 70 weeks of years from Daniel’s prophetic visions. This last week is the Tribulation week.
Except for the past couple of thousand years the Church has recognized that the last week of Daniel's seventy was the ministry of Jesus Christ back in the AD30s.
In the first half of this week the two witnesses (believers both Christian and messianic jews) thwart the plans of those who hate God and by extension,
I thought that those who believed in Jesus Christ were supposed to be at this alleged "wedding feast" in heaven. How exactly are there supposed to be Christians on earth, particularly when "faith comes by HEARING" and all of those who would be PREACHING are no where to be found? I also wonder if these people are filled with Spirit too, because if so, doesn't that make the Spirit of God, the third of the Holy Trinity evicted from the wedding feast and mingling among the profane and reprobate on earth? How does that work out in the Parable of the Wedding Feast, or the Parable of the Ten Virgins?
Anytime they go up against them they lose, because the two witnesses have power to call down fire from heaven (nukes, bombs, etc).
God is now considered a Nuclear Power? Why would the Creator, who fashioned the entire universe out of nothing by simply speaking it into existence, need to have thermo-nuclear devices? Who goes to a wedding feast to celebrate and has to keep ducking out every now and then to hurl down lightning bolts from Heaven like Thor or Zeus?
Doesn't it bother you in the least when the occasion of bringing down fire to punish a people occured, it was in the form of a theophany and angels? Elijah's fire was only about igniting the burnt sacrifice, not about immolating millions or selectively targetting certain reprobates with lightning bolts and death rays.
But we also have the ability to ask God to withhold rain, etc via prayer
Ok, so Mary prays for the heavens to stop up, and Bob prays that it rains because he has some crops to grow. Which one does God listen to and why?
This ticks off those who hate God and us, the fury builds during this time.
Really? Since when do the atheists actually acknowledge divine miraculous power? Rather, they take all of the evidence of miracles and spin it into some sort of materialistic explanation. Your story requires us to believe that atheists will suddenly believe in an all-powerful God, but that this God who can selectively target place with Heaven originated thermo-nuclear devices can be shut down by taking out two indeterminate sized crowds. How many will they have to kill in order to make sure they got them all and that one or two folks aren't hiding out in an isolated cave somewhere calling in air-support?
. In short I don’t believe in a two-part rapture.
Hopefully because you recognize that the Scriptures don't even teach a one-part "rapture", nor does it teach a "secret rapture" or even a "secret return", nor does it teach a "seven year tribulation where some of the saints are at a cosmic wedding feast". That is all made up fiction concocted by heretics who want to sell you their prophecy books and seminars and draw your attention from Jesus Christ so that you will look for a singular anti-christ.
I have another interpretation from a trusted pastor I’ve known for decades.
I strongly advise your "trusted pastor" to get a theological education or at least apply some critical thinking to this insanity that has come to characterize Premillennial Dysfunctionalism
Jerusalem is called some other names in the OT.
When I was just a young’in, women that wore a lot of make up were referred to as Jezebels, after the queen of Israel that ‘painted her face’. Nowadays, the ‘paint’ is so dominant in women’s daily living that if a woman doesn’t paint her face, she’s looked upon almost as weird, or a religious extremist, or maybe just a nonconformist.
My wife hasn’t worn that stuff for over 27 yrs. I like that, because I can kiss her anytime without the worry of messing up the ‘makeup’. (’makeup’. Just think about what that means. Pretend, fake, or false. Big industry though; one of the biggest polluters, some say). I’m so conditioned to her natural face, that makeup is the first thing I notice when I see women that wear it. If I’m stuck in a situation where I have to be near a ‘painted lady’, but not part of the conversation, I’ve caught myself counting the different products that have been applied. LOL!
“and the people, and kindreds, and tongues, and nations shall see their dead bodies...”
The ability for the whole world to see these events as they happen has only been available since the communication satellite came to be. But at the first, only modern societies with the means could view ‘via satellite’. Now, only the most remote places, without electricity, are still without that capability.
I think the pieces of the ‘end time’ puzzle are very likely present. Look up.......
I think Rev. 11:1-14 is a picture of the church on earth in the time of testing, while in vv.15-19 it is the church in heaven in victory. To look at the Temple picture it shows that this is not in heaven, but symbolically dealing with the visible church on earth. This ‘visible’ church has both true believers in the sanctuary and in the ‘outer court’ hypocrites.
The 42 months in v. 2 = the 1260 days in v.3 = 3 1/2 years. It is used again in 12:14 as ‘a time(1), times (2) and half a time.’ In Dan. 7:25 and 12:7 we have this numerology also, and there for the time of the enemy of God operating from the 4th kingsom. Here it is the time of the church in the New Testament era, the whole New Testament age. It can be viewed as 3 1/2 for the Old Testament time and 3 1/2 for the New Testament time. Seven is the perfect or whole time. This time is portrayed here as a time of judgment and testing. It is through many tribulations we enter the kingdom. Testing of faith produces strong faith and spiritual blessings come forth.
With the two witnesses you can’t help but think of Moses and Elijah with the water turning to blood and the rain withheld. The Word is a sharp two-edged Sword of the Spirit. It comes forth from Jesus mouth, 1:16, 2:12. As everthing should be confirmed by two or three witnesses, so here these two witnesses confirm the truth of God in His Word. In v. 4 the two witnesses are called the ‘two olive trees and the two lampstands.’ The ‘olive trees’ comes from Zech. 4:1-7 and of course the lampstand goes back to chap. 2 with the image of the seven golden lampstands as the church. The olive trees supply the lamps with oil. And so it is the Spirit who works with our spirit to testify that we are the children of God.
The wicked world which opposes the truth of God’s Word is here referred to with ‘Sodom and Egypt’ and in chap. 17 as Babylon, easily recognized as previous enemies of God’s people but now in symbolic use. This world is that great city where our Lord was crucified, He who came from heaven. Later the heavenly city is portrayed in all its glory as our eternal home. When the two witnesses are killed representing the persecution of the church in this evil world, their bodies remain in the street for three and 1/2 days. In v.9 we see that for a relatively short time the enemy gloats. This reminds us of the short time in Matt. 22:14 and Rev. 20:3. But the witnesses revive and ascend, as there will be victory. Judgments fall(to bring people to repentance)and in the end it will be this Word that they refused that will condemn them. ‘...that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.’ Jn. 12:48 But don’t forget that the scene shifts with the 7th trumpet to the great victory in heaven.
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[Zuriel expounds]
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[Stourme contiues]
Awesome observation. Thanks for posting.
Let me up the ante just a bit and build on what you've posted.
1. There is a schism in modern Christianity(historically speaking). There are several, but lets focus on one. Baptism. (Just for the sake of discussion)
2. Some teach that is necessary for salvation, some don't. Some teach that infant baptism is correct, others don't. etc... (again to aid in the discussion, other opinions may vary)
3. One of the functions of a prophet is to correct doctrine.
4. Who ever teaches something other than what these prophets are teaching is teaching false doctrine. And has been. So, by this logic about half of Christianity is going to have to admit they were wrong.
5. Now think for a moment of the attitudes of all the worlds religions...
6. When they (the prophets) start or have already started teaching, how much of the world will call them false prophets because they teach something other than what they have currently accepted as truth.
7. And the paralyzing fear that will grip the world when they witness these two being ressurected and really realize it's too late to repent....
8. And how long will it take for the world to break down into complete chaos over the implications over what they just saw...Jesus is real..and He's coming!
Just a thought.
Are you going to actually say that prophets functioned to correct the principles and teachings of Jesus Christ?
Who ever teaches something other than what these prophets are teaching is teaching false doctrine
Tell me what prophets you are speaking of here.
Please be specific.
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[Osage Orange]
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[Stourme blinks - twice]
We are discussing the two prophets described in Revelation Chapter 11 of the Bible. More specifically posters are giving their doctrines and opinions of the meaning of Chapter 11.
This is not a debate thread.
I apologize if that was not made clear in the OP.
Because of these man made doctrines, I think its possible the two prophets may be Noah and Moses. Noah/Noahic covenant 1st tablet (7 commandments - pertaining to man's relationships with one another) and Moses/Mosaic covenant the 2nd tablet (3 commandments - pertaining to man's relationship with God.)
We are told that as long as heaven and earth exist, the Law/Commandments will not fade away. jmo
I think the antichrist teaches false doctrine and John warned us that many antichrists existed in his time and that some went out from their group.
1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
The antichrist and other antichrists were already around when John wrote his epistle.
The Bible, in my research, doesn’t specifically say who the 2 witnesses are, but there is a tremendous amount of information in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc that all point in the same direction so that one can put the pieces all together and reach a very sound conclusion. I would like to present only a few verses, since there are too many to cover all, to show what I mean. Most people who have read the Bible have read about the two olive trees in Zechariah 4. And if you note in verse 15 he mentions two “anointed ones”. Well we know that the only anointed ones are the tribes that left Egypt to return to their inheritance of the land of the Abrahamic land covenant. Read Psalms 105:9-15. Verse 15 says specifically that they are his anointed. So why does Zechariah, 926 years after the Exodus, mention two anointed instead of one? Because the tribes were split into two nations during the reign of King Solomon (1Kings11) in 931 BC. It’s a long story, but anyway the two groups are the house of Israel (also referred to as Joseph or Ephraim), and the house of Judah. They are also called the vine and the fig tree. When the Lord of hosts returns to this land of the covenant, he will gather his two elect (Zachariah 3:10; Isaiah 5, 11:10-16, Ezekiel 37:15-28, and many more). I will stop for now.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH.
You wrote:
3. One of the functions of a prophet is to correct doctrine.
I asked:
Are you going to actually say that prophets functioned to correct the principles and teachings of Jesus Christ?
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