Posted on 02/15/2010 9:07:17 AM PST by GonzoII
The Scenario:
Ever have one of those days when you’re feeling full of energy and vigor? I mean, you’re feeling just obnoxiously happy? Well, this is one of those days.
Driving home from work, you switch on the radio to see what’s happening, and you tune in to a local Protestant radio station just in time to hear a preacher speaking against various Catholic doctrines concerning Mary. The show is called Pastor Bob’s Bible Hour. Pastor Bob proclaims: “Jesus knew Catholics would come along and begin to worship His mother and call her perpetual virgin and absurd things like that. But the Bible says: ‘Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And are not His brethren James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all of His sisters with us?’ (Matt. 13:55-56a). And isn’t it sad, my brothers and sisters?”
Pastor Bob goes on to say: “Jesus dealt with these Mary worshippers in His day. In Luke 11:27-28, the Bible says, ‘A woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts that You sucked!” But He said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”’”
On a normal day you would probably just listen, take a few mental notes and drive on. But not this time. You’re feeling a little bit too saucy. You take the first exit you see and head for a phone. This is just one more reason why you need to buy that cell phone you’ve been talking about getting.
Step One:
(Excerpt) Read more at envoymagazine.com ...
I think this analogy is flawed. If our Lord Jesus was the second Adam, how could Mary be a second Eve and still be the Mother of God? The Bible never refers to Mary as a second Eve although I will admit this comes from some of the Greek fathers. But to me it sounds a bit like a Oedipus Rex condition, which was a Greek tradegy.
I appreciate your explanations, but these are more various word definitions from a Catholic viewpoint to avoid calling this questionable action what it really is. It is good that there is worship of the Lord Jesus Christ in some parishes. There’s no need to venerate, adore, worship, etc. on anyone else but Him and Him alone.
What about the practice of seeking Mary if they can’t find Jesus? Is Mary really a co-redemptrix? Does God really need an intercessor other than the Christ?
Not only do they not show any evidence of understanding the word "vicar<" but they're really fuzzy on what the word "mediator" means, too.
RCs on the forum tell us daily that Mary and various saints are "mediators" between God and men.
They appear oblivious to what the function of a "mediator" really is. Mary does not "mediate" between God and men. Christ Jesus is the only mediator between God and men (1 Timothy 2:5.)
IV. This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake; which that he might discharge, he was made under the law, and did perfectly fulfill it; endured most grievous torments immediately in his soul, and most painful sufferings in his body; was crucified, and died, was buried, and remained under the power of death, yet saw no corruption. On the third day he arose from the dead, with the same body in which he suffered, with which also he ascended into heaven, and there sitteth at the right hand of his Father, making intercession, and shall return, to judge men and angels, at the end of the world.
(from the Westminster Confession of Faith)
Yes, Justin Martyr for one. But that, like it or not, means freedom of original sin.
No, they tell you Mary and various saints are mediators between Christ and Man, just like Timothy is in the same passage you cite, 1 Timothy 1:1. Christ is indeed the sole mediator to God the Father.
It is good that you pay so much attention to what Catholics teach. I correct you, so that none of that teaching gets misapprehended.
Mary is the mediator of no one. To say otherwise is to commit a type of idolatry for which a person will have to answer to God.
That she is a mediator is a scriptural fact: John 2:3.
I’d be happy to answer for reading the Gospel and not Westminster donkey-catechism.
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”
1st Timothy 2:5
Yes, exactly. This is the passage in view as well, 1st Timothy 2:1-5. Prooftext for the intercession of saints.
Typical
Happens every day. Scratch the beliefs of an anti-Catholic Protestant and you find apostasy and denial of plain scripture.
Good point, my experience has not involved Americans of European descent caught up in this heresy but that doesn't mean they aren't. The problem for people caught up in this is if that is the dominant culture they live in there is no one telling them how wrong it is.
“Mary and various saints are mediators between Christ and Man”
A mediator is one who brings opposing parties together for reconciliation. Jesus and believers are not opposing parties so there is no need for a mediator. As between believers and the Father Jesus is our mediator in the sense that he has reconciled us to the Father by his atoning sacrifice and now sits as our advocate; our intercessor. If we have trouble in articulating our prayer to the father the Holy Spirit has been sent to indwell us and help us in our infirmities with “groanings that cannot be uttered”.
Timothy is a co-laborer with Paul in the ministry as are others in the churches and their responsibility is to pray without ceasing. Those believers who have died have “finished the course”, completed their responsibilities here; their work is done and they are of no more use to those who remain except as examples or models to emulate.
Believers have direct access to the Father through the Son with the assistance of the Holy Spirit who is resident in the believer’s life; why insult the Godhead with mystical will worship?
As the Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
All kinds of things have been around for a long time but that doesn't make them right. In the case of the Marian practices and apparitions it is clearly accelerating.
Ex.20:4-5 You shall not make for yourself an idol...You shall not bow down to them or worship them...
Lets see the plain Scripture that Mary was assumed into heaven. Lets see the plain Scripture that she hears prayers and selects which ones Jesus should hear. Lets see the plain Scripture she can go to "purgatory" and take people that were faithful to her to heaven. Lets see the plain Scripture that you should bow down or kneel to statues of Mary. Lets see the plain Scripture that she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.
John 6:29 Jesus answered,"The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent."
God sent his son Jesus it is heresy to be looking to someone else.
Wow - just wow - has there ever been a verse taken further out of context?!
John 2:3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
Please enlighten us further, what exactly is ‘Westminster donkey-catechism’?
See, all this is philosophical speculation. I can speculate on my own as well, or I can speculate with the Church and the fathers of the Church. The latter, at least, will be a speculation with some historical continuity to the Early Church. A curious corollary to your particular excercise of speculation is that if mediation necessarily involves prior hostility then we have to explain how God Who, the scripture tells us, is ontologically pure love, is hostile to us. With a likeminded person I might even indulge a discussion along these lines. But at this point, I think, the issue is much closer at hand: the scripture tells us of mediation of Christ Jesus the Man to God, -- we have to presume, God the Father. The scripture also tells us of mediation of a different kind, better described as intercession that Mary accomplished at Cana or Timothy is asked to do in his church on behalf of all the rest of mankind. That latter kind is the intercession of saints. Quite biblical. St, Paul asks for it in every letter. There is no biblical reason to say that this intercession stops at the saint's death; there is in fact a better reason to say that it intensifies, as they, the saints, "see face to face" (1 Cor. 13:12)
You want the Bible, I am happy to discuss the Bible. Don't give me your philosophical pap back.
There are things the scripture covers and then there are things the scripture does not cover. Events after Mary's death, such as her assumption; the developemnt of doctrine such as the clarification of certain verses pointing to Purgatory, or proper form of venerating Mary are indeed not spelled out for your satisfaction in the scripture. But on the other hand, the Church's power to "bind and loose" and to teach "all nations" is in the scripture. Nor does the Catholic Church subscribe to the notion that every doctrine has to be found in perfect formulation in the scripture.
The Protestant apostasy is however, on the terms the Protestants themselves had chosen. You want to look at the scripture alone? Very well then, why don't you? I point to scripture that negates the error of "faith alone" and I get back some mumbo jumbo how I should not be reading the scripture this literally. I point to the role of saints, and I get Westminster (LOL) "confession". Look at your own posts. The issue was whether or not a woman described in the Scripture as "Mother of Christ" is Mary. One would think, yeah, that sounds like her, Christ did not have two mothers. That same woman is said to have children "who obey the commandments of Christ". One would think, that would be Christ's disciples, no? Then we look at the verse where the dying Christ says the very same thing, "she is your mother" to a man who is not Mary's biological son. Then we go through several posts of scriptural evasion. Then I, who pointed the verse out, is told that on the basis of that plain scripture I worship a pagan goddess.
Yes, I am Catholic, and therefore I know and understand the scripture. Protestantism is buffoonery and evasion. Flee it like a plague.
There is a well-known caricature, a donkey teaching something. When a group of people decide to make their own religion at Augsburg, Westminster, Geneva, or Leningrad, the caricature applies. They cannot do that, and they shouldn't have tried.
I hasten to add that I have nothing against the supreme mediatorship of Christ expressed in the prose of article IV cited above. I am, however, opposed to the idea that those assembled at Westminster had any discernible authority to teach.
On the miracle at Cana, of course that is an example of intercession. Mary knows of a want, Mary conveys the want to Christ, Christ listens, ponders and agrees. Intercession. What do you think the context is, wine tasting? Kitchen logistics? Double it plus one rule?
Nothing of the sort. It’s the reference in Genesis, that the child of the eve will crush the offspring of the serpent.
Christ always referred to himself as the Son of Man, for the same reason.
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