The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Marysecretary]

Now, now, Mark. We’re making progess here...

[big'ol_freeper]

Bit too much Truth for one to take in at one time hey?

[Marysecretary]

I don’t care about cults. Born again believers are what I’m interested in, not even protestant mainline churches. What has Christ revealed to His children who follow Him? I believe what His Word says about Him, to the best of my ability to do so. I could care less what these cultish people have believed. They aren’t truly Christian believers, IMHO.

[Petronski]

ROTFLOL! A new tactic by which to attack the truth -- "time-travel!"

You are arguing with something not claimed by the Catholic Church. The Church does not claim that, since Peter, there has always been a pope. There's a gap between the death of each pope and the election of his successor.

[Religion Moderator]

You can control it yourself by choosing brevity “headers” in your “my comments” until it falls off the list the next time you clear out the “new pings” section.

[Petronski]

Efforts to suppress that post are certainly understandable.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

show us the verse that says that any are predestined to hell.

I guess you didn't bother to read my post.

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory." -- Romans 9:22-23

---

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Ephesians 1:5-6

---

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." -- Proverbs 16:4

---

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" -- 1 Thessalonians 5:9

---

"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." -- 1 Peter 2:8

Unless you believe in a univerwsal salvation where all men are saved and none go to hell for their sins, then God willing, you will believe the words of Scripture which tell us some men have been appointed to mercy and some to wrath.

No man is prevented from believing. Those who have not been born again by the Holy Spirit do not want to believe, and so stand condemned by their unbelief.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I swat flies, too.

[MarkBsnr]

***The only men called to be apostles were the original 12 and Paul.

All the rest are called to be disciples of Christ. That is the outward call, to the entire world so that no man is without excuse.***

Up to this point we agree. No man has an excuse - since the Grace of God is extended to all and all men are offered adoption.

***The inward call, by the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit through unmerited grace alone, goes to all those who have been born again, who have received new ears and new eyes and a new heart and a renewed mind. Those men will respond in faith because it is the will of God that they do so.***

Here we disagree, not on the working of Grace, but on those who accept versus those who do not accept.

1 Tim 2:

3
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4
who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:
11
For the grace of God has appeared, saving all
12
and training us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live temperately, justly, and devoutly in this age,

John 3:
16
For God so loved the world that he gave 7 his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn 8 the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

Mark 16:
15
He said to them, “Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.
16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

We must hear and believe the gospel, repent of sin, confess Christ, and be baptized for forgiveness, after which we must live a faithful and Christian life. If we fall away, we can be forgiven if we truly repent and pray. 1 John 1:
8
If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, 3 and the truth is not in us.
9
If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.

John speaks of Jesus alone in the room with the disciples. If you think that he was being rebroadcast to the world, that is your prerogative.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Most of the time for FR I'm on Web-TV where the "brevity" header doesn't work.

Surely Mark realizes I could just as easily clog his ping list with endless tracts from Calvin or Luther, but I don't. I link to those sites, and I would appreciate Mark doing the same in this instance.

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: I swat flies, too.

I don’t have that problem. A good antiperspirant will take care of that.

[tiki]

And then Jesus explains to Nicodemus. As for the Samaritan woman it sounds like she realizes that Jesus, Himself is the Living Water by the time their discourse is finished.

[Petronski]

The battle to suppress rolls on. LOL

[tiki]

Notice it says ALL not ONLY. Catholics believe exactly what Timothy wrote, that is why it made the cut.

[big'ol_freeper]

It is pretty incredible. Normally the tactic is to simply shout down the Truth. Now it seems that tactic is changing to lobbying the RM to remove anything that challenges an individual’s self-righteous magisterical false biblical interpretation. No shame.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“I believe it’s 2nd Timothy 3:16 in which it’s declared that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God. Timothy declared that all of them wrote under inspiration.”

Yes, we’ve gone over that. Now show where it says WHICH books are inspired.

[tiki]

Well, at least you admit it is your own opinion but how do you pass judgement on their Christianity anymore than anyone else who claims Christianity by the whim of feeling and opinion?

Think about this seriously. You practically condemn people who believed by their own opinion, and I dare say they all believed they were right.

[Petronski]

And 2nd Timothy 3:16 SAID that all scripture was written under the inspiration of God.

All 73 books. Correct.

[tiki]

Exactly. It is very telling.

[rollo tomasi]

"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed "perfect knowledge," as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles." - - Irenaeus.

Gospels were first spread orally then written down and like the Torah probably copied and distributed to every Church/Temple/Place of open debate etc... the disciples of Christ could find.

"But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves." - - Clement of Alexandria

"For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings , in order to establish the heresy." - - Clement of Alexandria

Thank God for the early "birds". They seemed to tell it straight unlike what developed CENTURIES later. In Clement of Alexandria case calling people who fall for group think and not studying the Scriptures THEMSELVES are called "slothful". Imagine that. I have plenty more but the RCC seem to think 4th CENTURY and on "fathers" should be held in higher regard.