Retired Airline Pilot sues NTSB for "Zoom-climb" data

Retired airline Pilot Capt. Ray Lahr has brought suit against the NTSB for release of the data pertaining to the alleged "zoom-climb" by TWA800. NTSB has stated that this event was what the hundreds of witnesses observed prior to the TWA800 explosion.

Asmodeus, your little caricatures of myself and other Freepers from this thread that you have posted on your website with your associated "TINFOIL" comments remind of what a pathetic little misfit does when he or she has a grudge against someone in school. Said misfit would scribble graffiti all over the bathroom walls in relation to the target of their little grudge.

You only demonstrate to all here that you have NO valid argument whatsoever. Your opinions are just that, as your so-called facts are without merit as your "timeline" is refuted by your own "source material". You refuse to debate the material that we ARE discussing, but instead resort to ad hominiem innuendos and insults.

For those who wish to know the facts concerning what Captain Baur actually said...

Witness 658: While piloting an Air National Guard Helicopter, "Baur first noticed what he thought was a flare and said into the helicopter's radio, "Is that a pyro?" Baur's first thought was that two things had flown into each other." He also saw the falling debris and immediately flew to the area in a search and rescue effort. From NTSB interview, Appendix N: A "white-hot..pyrotechnic... device...[which] came from the left and went to the right. And it made the object on the right explode."

Capt. Chris Baur: "Almost due south [of the helicopter], there was a hard white light, like burning pyrotechnics, in level flight," Capt. Chris Baur told investigators. "I was trying to figure out what it was. It was the wrong color for flares. It struck an object coming from the right and made it explode." Two NY Air National Guard pilots with the best view of the crash of TWA 800 ....... one believes the airliner was struck by a fast-moving object coming from the east, while the other saw a fiery trail from the west.... Meyer's attention was first called to the area ...."by a streak of light moving from my right (west) to my left (east)," the same direction as the TWA flight, he said.....Baur, on the left side of the cockpit, saw a streak moving from left to right toward the approaching TWA aircraft before the initial explosion. The streak of light that Meyer saw .....was red-orange in color .....there was what Meyer describes as a hard, very sudden, yellowish-white explosion that looked identical to the detonation of an anti-aircraft shell ....."It left a cloud of smoke just like a flak explosion does," Meyer said. "One to two seconds later, there was a second, hard explosion almost pure white in color ... almost immediately there was a third explosion and fireball"....Baur also saw three explosions ...he contends that they started from left (east) and went to the right (west).... The call sign that night for Baur and Meyer was Jolly 14. The helicopter (a HH-60G Pave Hawk) was descending through 200 feet above the airport when Baur's eye was caught by some sort of light. According to the crew, Baur called out over the intercom to his flight engineer, MSgt. Dennis Richardson, "Hey Denny, is that pyro?" Within seconds he saw a hard explosion. Richardson, shifting in his seat from behind Baur, did not see the streak but did see the explosions.

I think you've done a great job a piecing together a valid timeline from the available data. I do have a few suggestions I'd like to make in relation to some of the events though..

20:31:12 - ~13,800 ft. - 0 sec. Last transponder return, everything normal, Aircraft climbing at 33 ft./second.

As the FDR records a massive overpressure and bizarre readings at 20:31:12, there is some question here as to whether the IE happened at ~20:31:13 as you indicate. There IS some uncertainity here however, as I'm not sure how the time recorded in the FDR relates to the time recorded by the Islip radar. It IS possible that there was some slight difference between the two clocks, so as far as I know we can't be certain as to the exact time of the IE.

There's also the fact that witnesses observed TWO detonations prior to the first fireball, so I'd add an entry for the detonation of the SECOND missile at about 1 or 2 seconds past the IE. That is the time interval given for that sequence as told by the witnesses who saw both detonations..

Given the IE at ~20:31:13, entry for the SECOND detonation should be;

20:31:14 - 20:31:15: ~13,880 ft. ~2-3 sec. Second missile detonates, sheering off the nose of TWA 800. This missile was observed by Captain Baur and Al Gipe. The warhead involved with this missile is apparently of a continuous-rod type.

We also need to add the THIRD explosion, apparently that of the CWT almost immediately after the SECOND detonation...

20:31:15 - 20:31:16: ~ 13,900 ft. ~3-4 sec. Third explosion is observed by witnesses, described as resulting in a fireball and trail of flames. This is the center wing tank exploding and spraying flaming fuel.

You refer to the various states of the CWT along the timeline. I don't know if it would be possible for the tank to have been ruptured by a missle and explode yet maintain any structural integrity, but then again I supppose it might be possible.

In relation to the event listed for 20:31:34:97;

20:31:34:97 - ~9,100 ft. - 22.97 sec. Fifth post IE radar return. Stress is taking its toll on the wingroots. The Center Wing Tank structural members are buckling under the whipping of the plane rolling and pitching. Fuel is now leaking into the area around the Wing roots from the full wing tanks.

I'd say that this is the point where the left wing was ripped off due to the extremely high airspeed and structural damage. This resulted in the massive fireball as the aircraft was already in flames at this point. The massive amount of fuel suddenly released by the loss of the left wing ignited and resulted in the massive fireball which had reportedly been observed by satellite to have occured between 5500-7500 feet. Recent calculations I've made lean towards an altitude of 6500 feet for this event, and I personally find that to be a closer estimate for the altitude of the aircraft than the 9100 feet altitude that you postulate.

Do you think that is detailed enough for AsmoElmer?

I don't think anything would satisfy him unless we totally and unequivocally agreed with him.

Former, I deliberately considered only the single missile scenario... however, I would have no problem adding your second missile as I believe there is sufficient evidence to consider it. However, I did not postulate the explosion of the CWT immediately following the IE in deference to your theory of some aerodynamic falling... and because I rethought what the radar track shows... which is that there were distinct gross vector changes. This indicates that the airframe maintained SOME ability to exert a force on itself. Without engines, the only thing left is an intact wing exerting uncontrolled AERODYNAMIC random lift in various stages of the fallas the aircraft gyrated and occasionally achieved close to a proper angle of attack. If the CWT had exploded immediately, the wing would not have been strong enough to place that kind of force on the airframe. The logical conclusion is that the CWT was still intact during these vector changes.

The first small fireball of non-ordnance explosion may be explained by shrapnel from the missile penetrating the right wing tank and leaking fuel spewing in to the atmosphere detonating from hot material. That fireball is left behind and the leaking, but not aerated fuel extinguishes itself.

The Track shows a major vector change (more than 110 degrees to the right of the previous vector!!!) sometime after the 20:31:34:97 return. That gross of a change must indicate the extreme forces that either pull the wing off or are the result of the wing loss. The wing must have been lost somewhere here and the rest of the airframe with one wing started a very rapid spin... which cannot apply any force for sufficient time to alter the trajectory in any significant factor. Note, that the very small linear distance this vector change makes means that the loss of the wing could have occured ANYTIME in the ~4.62 seconds between sweeps. My thinking is that it probably occured very close to the next sweep and that the MF followed in only a couple of seconds afterward... otherwise the plane would be far away (900+ feet) from the cloud of fuel/air that became the fireball it was seen to fall out of.

I selected the 20:31:39:64 return as the one preceeding the exposion of the massive fireball for several reasons. First, the spinning plane would expel the remaining fuel and agitate it. Second The aerated fuel spewed by the plane cannot have been going on too long as it would have been left behind by the aircraft (each molecule of fuel would have very little mass and would lose momentum almost instantly) and MF witnesses report the aircraft falling out the bottom of the MF, ergo the fuel spew, agitation, explosion occur very quickly. Next, the witnesses who reported the MF below their position and placed it around 7,500 ft altitude... which is where the plane was at that point, and finally, the reports of the rising cloud from the MF are in the area the plane was at that time. i actually would not have any problem with your suggestion of 6,100 feet for the MF as the witnesses report it at 7,500 but hot gasses rise rapidly and the TOP of the ball would easily reach that in very short time. Several witnesses reported the explosion to be 2000 feet in diameter!

As to asmodeus... he wouldn't be happy if we did suddenly agree with him... he would probably be out of a job!

Hall danced some more. "Greta, in my mind, with 100 percent certainty, our investigators, based on the facts they developed, they are wrong, they are incorrect."

I always thought that Hall's answer to that question was one of the more interesting statements made during the entire cover-up.

Let's examine that sentence... The only thing that makes this sentence garbled is the second "they". If we elide that word, the sentence makes perfect sense. It may in fact be his actual intent. He did not want to outright LIE, otherwise why not just SAY "The conspiracy theorists are wrong," and be done with it. Instead he constructed this very carefully... and made a true statement.

Read it this way, without the second "they" and here is what you get:

"Greta, in my mind, with 100 percent certainty, our investigators, based on the facts they developed, __ are wrong; they are incorrect."

Is this a Freudian Slip? Or a very careful man who has problems lying under orders?

FormerLurker to Swordmaker: The massive amount of fuel suddenly released by the loss of the left wing ignited and resulted in the massive fireball which had reportedly been observed by satellite to have occured between 5500-7500 feet. Recent calculations I've made lean towards an altitude of 6500 feet for this event, and I personally find that to be a closer estimate for the altitude of the aircraft than the 9100 feet altitude that you postulate."

Let's compare FormerLurker's present calculated MF altitude of 6500 feet with the following:

The timeline and location of the major events of the disaster was approximately as follows:

8:31:11 Intact and climbing 747 approaches 13,800 feet.

8:31:12 Initiating Event at 13,800 feet followed immediately by the commencement of the decapitation process.

8:31:43-8:31:47 Streak of light appears.

8:31:47 Explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet.

8:31:55-8:31:57 Splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.
Source.

The huge size of the Massive Fireball explosion was calculated by another "shootdown" tinfoil hat years ago at approximately 2000 feet in diameter and, of course, witnesses Faret & Wendell have stated that the top of the MF smoke cloud was at 7700 feet.
Source.

Again Asmodeus, you fail to correct your timeline to allow for the fact that the LATEST that TWA800 could have impacted the water was at 20:31:55, and more likely 3 or 4 seconds prior to that.

You ignore the evidence of WHEN the second fireball (also known as the MASSIVE FIREBALL) occured. We've shown that fireball to be the result of the left wing separating from the aircraft between 20:31:35 and 20:31:40, where the fuel escaping from that wing tank burst into a fireball.

You ALSO ignore the fact that there were TWO fireballs, the first of which occured shortly after the initiating event and the second occuring when the left wing detached from the aircraft.

Finally, you continue to ignore the question of exactly why your timeline differs from the sources that you provide as evidence, which upon examination also appear to be incorrect and impossible in certain respects.

The huge size of the Massive Fireball explosion was calculated by another "shootdown" tinfoil hat years ago at approximately 2000 feet in diameter and, of course, witnesses Faret & Wendell have stated that the top of the MF smoke cloud was at 7700 feet.

There you go again with your "tinfoil hat" diatribes. Do you really think name calling bolsters your stature here?

In any case, you obviously didn't read your own source too well. From your own link..

We would like to emphasize:
"We approached the black-gray smoke cloud on the west side. We were at 7700 feet and were at the top edge of the cloud. The cloud center was at 7500 feet. There were 2 small bumps atop it. There was no smoke or smoke trails above it. It was still lit up a little by the sun, clear above. We don’t why this has never been discussed in any scenarios.”

If the smoke cloud center is at 7500 feet and the top of the smoke cloud is 7700 feet, the diameter of the cloud is 200 feet, not 2000.

And of course TWA800 would have fallen out of the massive fireball as it was still travelling at a much higher velocity than the burning fuel which rapidly decelerated.

But NO turn to the RIGHT----A turn to the LEFT or North as evidenced by the debris field, and sooting patterns on right wing.

John, a turn to the right at 20:31:35 is what the radar data shows and is consistent with the debris field. It IS quite probable that it did in fact occur as the aircraft had lost its left wing and apparently went into a sharp spiraling dive.

The turn to the right is a matter of the right wing forcing the plane to yaw 90 degrees to the left and with the resulting dive ended up veering sharply downwards and 110 degrees to the right of its former bearing.

And again, that's what the radar and debris shows...

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