Posted on 10/01/2017 2:04:52 PM PDT by Nextrush
A stronghold for anarchists...until the Communists started murdering the anarchists.
following Sunday's referendum which was marred by violence... Hundreds of people were injured as Spanish police used force to try to block voting. The Spanish government had pledged to stop a poll that was declared illegal by the country's constitutional court...Catalonian independence purports to hearken back to the early 18th century, but is in reality rooted in 1920s Spanish socialism. In 2006, while the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party controlled the Spanish parliament (with a whopping 42 percent of the national vote), Spain granted Catalonia 'nation' status and taxation power. According to polls, about 40 percent of Catalonians support independence, and they are likely to A) be the vast majority of the turnout and B) control the counting of the ballots. Catalan emerged as a related group of Romance Language dialects during the Middle Ages, was revived in the 19th century, then (as were other languages in Europe) standardized during the early 20th century. Thanks Nextrush.
“So what? For example, if the leftist elites in SoCal want a CalExit for their Mexifornia paradise, let them go (and a new state of Jefferson created in NorCal). It isn’t only conservatives who should have the right to secede from a government that does not represent their interests.”
I’m onboard as long as we build a big, beautiful wall around Mexifornia.
Or as Anglo Canada finally told Quebec, just take your share of the national debt, and go. Needless to say, Quebec demurred.
“There is no such thing as a “right to secede”.”
I’ll go with our founders on this point. Yes, you can expect to be ground under heel by those who don’t want you to separate, but the right to separate exists nonetheless.
Cataluna was the hotbed of communism during the Spanish Civil War
Right.
It’s not handing Catalonia over to the hard left. It’s always been the hard left since at least the days when the communists were fighting Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
And if they choose to be conquered by the Moors again, so what? We are not the world’s nanny.
As for the voting that happened last time, that’s a red herring regarding a nonbinding referendum. To the extent today’s voting has been tampered with, it’s been the Spanish nationalists confiscating ballot boxes, stomping on the faces of voters, and firing rubber bullets.
In short, the “hard left” bogeyman isn’t justification for denying Catalonia independence.
I find it interesting that some independence movements are supported by certain FReepers and the establishment while others are not. For example, it’s okay for Kosovo to separate from Serbia. Or West Virginia from Virginia. Yet a southern Confederacy, independent Catalonia, CalExit, sovereign Kurdistan, etc. are verboten. Guess it depends upon whose ox is being gored rather than a consistent set of principles regarding the role of government.
Is English your second language?
True.
could you say more about your opinion that people don’t have the right to secede? I read somewhere in the declaration of independence people had a broad rights to be independent or did I misread something? What right would you have to keep them associated with you? the right of war? Is that how you “enforce” freedom?
A stronghold for anarchists...until the Communists started murdering the anarchists.
“Mr Soros, you’ve bought Catalonia!”
The DoI is completely meaningless if the revolution failed.
The “right” subject to conditions, like winning.
Outside of a philosophical argument, unless there is a written process of secession in a federation, then it is an extra-legal action that can be seen by the existing government, as an act of rebellion (or war) because, as I said, the government is charged to keep the nation’s territorial integrity. Not to allow any dissatisfied group to break off, rightly or wrongly, and create a nation out of whatever. You will end up with cities, neighborhoods, blocks, homes, bedrooms, and basements as nations.
Anyone that wants secession had better be ready to win the challenge.
The Commmissars at the EU will not like this vote.
Thank you for your commentary. I had no idea....Does not sound good for Europe.
“Because Catalonia was anti-Franco, they’ve been labelled as to the left, but that’s a misnomer in my opinion.”
All the separatists in Spain are hard Left.
That’s why so many of their leaders are communists, socialists and green party members. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raül_Romeva
Here are the names of the Catalan parties that support separatism and the words they use to describe themselves:
Republican Left of Catalonia (Left-wing nationalist, Democratic socialist party)
Catalan European Democratic Party (Liberalism)
Popular Unity Candidacy (socialist, anti-capitalist party)
Catalan Solidarity for Independence (seems more interested in independence than any other political world view)
Catalan Solidarity for Independence (historically opposed to revolutionary communism but heavily involved with terrorism and assassinations in the 1920s and 30s)
Poble Lliure (left wing; and their logo is a riff on the Catalan flag made into a fist; clearly communist inspired)
Reagrupament Independentista (formed within the Republican Left of Catalonia (ERC) by members who opposed the party’s alliance with two other leftist parties, the Socialists’ Party of Catalonia (PSC) and the Iniciativa per Catalunya Verds (ICV))
Young Republican Left of Catalonia (pretty damn obvious from the name)
Arran (an organization rather than a party; socialist and femninist)
The simple fact is that the Leftists DOMINATE the Catalan call for independence and have for a century. By the way, the Catalan parties that oppose independence are also overwhelmingly LEFT WING.
I am totally lacking in knowledge on this subject, but it looks like post #13 by publius gives some great background info.
There were several groups. Even Orwell while fighting with other foreign socialists for the `Republic’ had trouble keeping them straight. Some of his experiences there led to his disenchantment with communist ideals v. reality, leading to Animal Farm, then 1984.
His book Homage to Catalonia, for anyone interested. He was wounded in the throat and got the hell out of Dodge.
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