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BREAKING: 62 Scholars correct Pope Francis for "propagating heresies"
Lifesite news ^ | 9/23/17 | Pete Baklinski

Posted on 09/23/2017 4:03:36 PM PDT by winoneforthegipper

ROME, September 23, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) – Expressing “profound grief” and “filial devotion,” Catholic clergy and lay scholars from around the world have issued what they are calling a “Filial Correction” to Pope Francis for “propagating heresy.”

The Filial Correction, in the form of a 25-page letter, bears the signatures of sixty-two Catholic academics, researchers, and scholars in various fields from twenty countries. They assert that Pope Francis has supported heretical positions about marriage, the moral life, and the Eucharist that are causing a host of “heresies and other errors” to spread throughout the Catholic Church.

The correction was delivered to the Pope at his Santa Marta residence on August 11, 2017. No similar action has taken place within the Catholic Church since the Middle Ages, when Pope John XXII was admonished for errors which he later recanted on his deathbed.

“With profound grief, but moved by fidelity to our Lord Jesus Christ, by love for the Church and for the papacy, and by filial devotion toward yourself, we are compelled to address a correction to Your Holiness on account of the propagation of heresies effected by the apostolic exhortation Amoris laetitia and by other words, deeds and omissions of Your Holiness,” the signers write in the letter.

“As subjects, we do not have the right to issue to Your Holiness that form of correction by which a superior coerces those subject to him with the threat or administration of punishment,” they state.

“We issue this correction, rather, to protect our fellow Catholics — and those outside the Church, from whom the key of knowledge must not be taken away — hoping to prevent the further spread of doctrines which tend of themselves to the profaning of all the sacraments and the subversion of the Law of God,” they add.

Advertisement  The signers respectfully insist that Pope Francis condemn the heresies that he has “directly or indirectly upheld,” and that he teach the truth of the Catholic faith in its integrity.

They say that they make “no judgment” about the Pope’s culpability in propagating the seven heresies they list. They add that it is not their task to “judge whether the sin of heresy has been committed” whereby a person “departs from the faith by doubting or denying some revealed truth with a full choice of the will.”

The letter was made public today, six weeks after the signers received no response from the Pope.

Duty to correct

The 62 clergy and lay scholars explain that, as believing and practicing Catholics, they have the right and duty to issue such a correction to the Pope “by natural law, by the law of Christ, and by the law of the Church” and that the correction in no way undermines Catholic teaching on papal infallibility.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Pope is infallible (incapable of error by a special gift of the Holy Spirit) when certain conditions are met. He teaches infallibly in his ordinary capacity when a doctrine is consistent, constant, and universal in relation to what the Church and other popes have always taught. Or in an extraordinary capacity, he teaches infallibly when he speaks “ex cathedra,” that is, when he speaks in the capacity of his office as Apostolic pastor and teacher for the purpose of defining a “doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.” The Pope is not infallible in other matters, such as when he gives an off-the-cuff interview or presents his personal reflection on a given topic.

“We adhere wholeheartedly to the doctrine of papal infallibility,” the signers state, adding that in their opinion “neither Amoris Laetitia nor any of the statements which have served to propagate the heresies which this exhortation insinuates are protected by that divine guarantee of truth.” The signers’ opinion that the exhortation is not infallible magisterial teaching is backed by leading churchmen, such as Cardinal Raymond Burke.

The signers list a dozen passages from Amoris Laetitia that they say “serve to propagate seven heretical propositions.”

Included in the list is the “smoking” footnote 351 where the Pope writes that those living in an objective situation of sin can receive the “help of the sacraments” to grow in the life of grace and charity. Many have interpreted this to mean that civilly-divorced-and-remarried Catholics living in adultery can receive Holy Communion, and the Pope has endorsed guidelines allowing this. Also included in the list is the text pertaining to couples living in adultery who, the Pope writes, see their situation as “what God himself is asking” of them, despite falling short of the “objective ideal.”

The scholars say that these passages along with a number of “words, deeds and omissions” of the Pope are “serving to propagate heresies within the Church.”

According to the signers, the “words, deeds and omissions” of Pope Francis that promote heresy include:

Advertisement  Refusing to answer the dubia (five yes-or-no questions) submitted by the four cardinals (two of whom are now deceased) asking him to confirm that Amoris Laetitia does not abolish five teachings of the Catholic faith.

Forcibly intervening at the 2015 Synod of the Family where he insisted on inserting into a midterm report a proposal (that did not receive sufficient votes) to allow communion for adulterers and a proposal that pastors should emphasize the “positive aspects” of lifestyles the Church considers gravely sinful, including civil remarriage after divorce and premarital cohabitation.

Endorsing an interpretation of the exhortation by Vienna Cardinal Christoph Schönborn that allows for Holy Communion to be given to adulterers.

Affirming the statement of the bishops of the Buenos Aires region that allowed Communion to be given to adulterers, stating that “there are no other interpretations.”

Appointing to positions of influence within the Church men who publicly dissent from Catholic teaching on the sacraments, including Archbishop Vincenzo Paglia and Cardinal Kevin Farrell.

Allowing guidelines for the diocese of Rome to be issued under his authority that permit adulterers to receive communion under certain circumstances.

Leaving uncorrected the publication in L’Osservatore Romano, the official journal of the Holy See, the Maltese bishops’ interpretation of Amoris Laetitia that allows communion for adulterers.

Seven heresies

The Catholic clergy and lay scholars go on to list seven “false and heretical propositions” which they say Pope Francis “directly or indirectly” upholds through his “words, deeds, and omissions.” These seven propositions, listed below, are summaries of the positions which they attribute to Pope Francis and deem to be heretical.

A justified person has not the strength with God’s grace to carry out the objective demands of the divine law, as though any of the commandments of God are impossible for the justified; or as meaning that God’s grace, when it produces justification in an individual, does not invariably and of its nature produce conversion from all serious sin, or is not sufficient for conversion from all serious sin.

Christians who have obtained a civil divorce from the spouse to whom they are validly married and have contracted a civil marriage with some other person during the lifetime of their spouse, who live more uxorio [as husband and wife] with their civil partner, and who choose to remain in this state with full knowledge of the nature of their act and full consent of the will to that act, are not necessarily in a state of mortal sin, and can receive sanctifying grace and grow in charity.

Advertisement  A Christian believer can have full knowledge of a divine law and voluntarily choose to break it in a serious matter, but not be in a state of mortal sin as a result of this action.

A person is able, while he obeys a divine prohibition, to sin against God by that very act of obedience.

Conscience can truly and rightly judge that sexual acts between persons who have contracted a civil marriage with each other, although one or both of them is sacramentally married to another person, can sometimes be morally right or requested or even commanded by God.

Moral principles and moral truths contained in divine revelation and in the natural law do not include negative prohibitions that absolutely forbid particular kinds of action, inasmuch as these are always gravely unlawful on account of their object.

Our Lord Jesus Christ wills that the Church abandon her perennial discipline of refusing the Eucharist to the divorced and remarried and of refusing absolution to the divorced and remarried who do not express contrition for their state of life and a firm purpose of amendment with regard to it.

The clergy and scholars state that these “propositions all contradict truths that are divinely revealed, and that Catholics must believe with the assent of divine faith.”

They add that it is “necessary” that such heresies be “condemned by the authority of the Church,” on account of the “great and imminent danger” they cause to souls.

As one of the signers explained to LifeSiteNews, St. Thomas Aquinas taught that faithful Catholics have a duty to correct an erring prelate. He quoted the following passage from the saint’s famous theological work Summa Theologiae:

If the faith were endangered, a subject ought to rebuke his prelate even publicly. Hence Paul, who was Peter’s subject, rebuked him in public, on account of the imminent danger of scandal concerning the faith, and, as the gloss of Augustine says on Gal. 2:11, Peter gave an example to superiors, that if at any time they should happen to stray from the straight path, they should not disdain to be reproved by their subjects. The signers conclude the letter, writing: “At this critical hour, therefore, we turn to the cathedra veritatis [seat of truth], the Roman Church, which has by divine law pre-eminence over all the churches, and of which we are and intend always to remain loyal children, and we respectfully insist that Your Holiness publicly reject these propositions, thus accomplishing the mandate of our Lord Jesus Christ given to St Peter and through him to all his successors until the end of the world: ‘I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.’"

Advertisement  One significant name in the list of signers is that of Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior general of the traditionalist Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX). He signed the letter after it had already been submitted to the Pope. It remains to be seen how Fellay’s agreement with the content of the filial correction will affect Pope Francis’ recent efforts to integrate the SSPX legally into the Catholic Church.

Signs of the times

The filial correction comes after more than a year of the Pope not dialoguing or engaging with faithful Catholics who have approached him directly with serious concerns about how he is steering the Barque of Peter, the Church. The Pope has been sent letters, petitions, video messages, and official questions (the dubia), but all to no avail. Significant dates of attempts to dialogue with the Pope include:

September 29, 2015 – 791,000 Catholics (including 8 cardinals, over 200 bishops, and numerous priests, religious, and lay faithful representing 62 pro-family organizations) petition Pope Francis to end the “widespread confusion arising from the possibility that a breach has been opened within the Church that would accept adultery... and would virtually even accept homosexual unions.”

July 13, 2016 – 16 international life-and-family advocates plead with the Pope to “unambiguously speak the truth of the Catholic faith, to end doctrinal confusion, to restore clarity, and to be the Holy Father that Catholics need.”

July 11, 2016 – 45 Catholic scholars submit a letter to the cardinals and Eastern patriarchs of the Church asking them to petition the Pope to “repudiate a list of erroneous propositions” that can be drawn from Amoris Laetitia.

September 19, 2016 – Four cardinals (two of whom are now deceased) submit to the Pope five yes-or-no questions (dubia) asking if the exhortation conforms to perennial Catholic teaching on the moral life. The questions were never answered.

January 18, 2017 – Three Eastern European bishops launch a “spiritual crusade” urging the Pope to “revoke in an unequivocal manner” pastoral guidelines stemming from Amoris Laetitia that allow adulterers to receive Holy Communion.

April 25, 2017 – The four dubia cardinals unsuccessfully ask the Pope for a private audience to discuss “confusion and disorientation” within the Church after the publication of Amoris Laetitia.

The filial correction of the Pope comes at a time when reports have emerged that suggest a "formal correction" of the Pope from cardinals may be imminent.

Cardinal Raymond Burke, one of the dubia Cardinals, outlined in August what such a correction would entail.

Advertisement  “It seems to me that the essence of the correction is quite simple,” Burke told The Wanderer. “On the one hand, one sets forth the clear teaching of the Church; on the other hand, what is actually being taught by the Roman Pontiff is stated. If there is a contradiction, the Roman Pontiff is called to conform his own teaching in obedience to Christ and the Magisterium of the Church,” he said.

“The question is asked, ‘How would this be done?’ It is done very simply by a formal declaration to which the Holy Father would be obliged to respond. Cardinals Brandmüller, Caffarra, Meisner, and I used an ancient institution in the Church of proposing dubia to the Pope,” the Cardinal continued.

“This was done in a very respectful way and not in any way to be aggressive, in order to give him the occasion to set forth the Church’s unchanging teaching. Pope Francis has chosen not to respond to the five dubia, so it is now necessary simply to state what the Church teaches about marriage, the family, acts that are intrinsically evil, and so forth. These are the points that are not clear in the current teachings of the Roman Pontiff; therefore, this situation must be corrected. The correction would then direct itself principally to those doctrinal points,” he added.

Cardinal Burke added in an interview this month that the forthcoming formal correction would “require” the Pope to teach what the Catholic Church has always taught about marriage, the Eucharist, and the impossibility of ever justifying intrinsically evil acts.

His Eminence stated in a September 21 interview with Australia’s Catholic Outlook that he and remaining dubia Cardinal Walter Brandmüller will “take forward the important work of resolving the dubia.”

“The urgency of a response to the dubia derives from the harm done to souls by the confusion and error, which result, as long as the fundamental questions raised are not answered in accord with the constant teaching and practice of the Church. The urgency weighs very heavily on my heart,” he said.

The Filial Correction and its signatories, along with a summary statement and press release, can be viewed at www.correctiofilialis.org.

Editor's note: Diane Montagna contributed to this report.

***

Signatories of the Filial Correction

Note: The letter delivered to Pope Francis on August 11 contained 40 names. 22 more names have been added since that date.

Advertisement  Dr. Gerard J. M. van den Aardweg European editor, Empirical Journal of Same-Sex Sexual Behavior

Prof. Jean Barbey Historian and Jurist, former Professor at the University of Maine

Fr Claude Barthe Diocesan Priest

Philip M. Beattie BA (Leeds), MBA (Glasgow), MSc (Warwick), Dip.Stats (Dublin) Associate Lecturer, University of Malta (Malta)

Fr Jehan de Belleville Religious

Dr. Philip Blosser Professor of Philosophy, Sacred Heart Major Seminary, Archdiocese of Detroit

Fr Robert Brucciani District superior of the SSPX in Great Britain

Prof. Mario Caponnetto University Professor, Mar de la Plata (Argentina)

Mr Robert F. Cassidy STL

Fr Isio Cecchini Parish Priest in Tuscany

Advertisement  Salvatore J. Ciresi M.A. Director of the St. Jerome Biblical Guild, Lecturer at the Notre Dame Graduate School of Christendom College

Fr. Linus F Clovis Ph.D., JCL, M.Sc., STB, Dip. Ed Director of the Secretariat for Family and Life in the Archdiocese of Castries

Fr Paul Cocard Religious

Fr Thomas Crean OP STD

Prof. Matteo D'Amico Professor of History and Philosophy, Senior High School of Ancona

Dr. Chiara Dolce PhD Research doctor in Moral Philosophy at the University of Cagliari

Deacon Nick Donnelly MA

Petr Dvorak Head of Department for the Study of Ancient and Medieval Thought at the Institute of Philosophy, Czech Academy of Sciences, Prague Professor of philosophy at Saints Cyril and Methodius Theological Faculty, Palacky University, Olomouc, Czech Republic

H.E. Mgr Bernard Fellay Superior General of the SSPX

Christopher Ferrara Esq. Founding President of the American Catholic Lawyers’ Association

Advertisement  Prof. Michele Gaslin Professor of Public Law at the University of Udine

Prof. Corrado Gnerre Professor at the Istituto Superiore di Scienze Religiose of Benevento, Pontifical Theological University of Southern Italy

Dr. Ettore Gotti Tedeschi Former President of the Institute for Works of Religion (IOR), Professor of Ethics at the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart, Milan

Dr. Maria Guarini STB Pontificia Università Seraphicum, Rome; editor of the website Chiesa e postconcilio

Prof. Robert Hickson PhD Retired Professor of Literature and of Strategic-Cultural Studies

Fr John Hunwicke Former Senior Research Fellow, Pusey House, Oxford

Fr Jozef Hutta Diocesan Priest

Prof. Isebaert Lambert Full Professor at the Catholic University of Louvain, and at the Flemish Katholieke Universiteit Leuven

Dr. John Lamont STL DPhil (Oxon.)

Fr Serafino M. Lanzetta STD Lecturer in Dogmatic Theology, Theological Faculty of Lugano, Switzerland; Priest in charge of St Mary’s, Gosport, in the diocese of Portsmouth

Advertisement  Prof. Massimo de Leonardis Professor and Director of the Department of Political Sciences at the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart in Milan

Msgr. Prof. Antonio Livi Academic of the Holy See Dean emeritus of the Pontifical Lateran University Vice-rector of the church of Sant'Andrea del Vignola, Rome

Dr. Carlo Manetti Professor in Private Universities in Italy

Prof. Pietro De Marco Former Professor at the University of Florence

Prof. Roberto de Mattei Former Professor of the History of Christianity, European University of Rome Former Vice President of the National Research Council (CNR)

Fr Cor Mennen Lecturer in Canon Law at the Major Seminary of the Diocese of ‘s-Hertogenbosch (Netherlands) Canon of the cathedral chapter of the diocese of ‘s-Hertogenbosch

Prof. Stéphane Mercier Lecturer in Philosophy at the Catholic University of Louvain

Don Alfredo Morselli STL Parish priest of the archdiocese of Bologna

Martin Mosebach Writer and essayist

Dr. Claude E. Newbury M.B., B.Ch., D.T.M&H., D.O.H., M.F.G.P., D.C.H., D.P.H., D.A., M. Med; Former Director of Human Life International in Africa south of the Sahara Former Member of the Human Services Commission of the Catholic Bishops of South Africa

Advertisement  Prof. Lukas Novak Faculty of Arts and Philosophy, Charles University, Prague

Fr Guy Pagès Diocesan Priest

Prof. Paolo Pasqualucci Professor of Philosophy (retired), University of Perugia

Prof. Claudio Pierantoni Professor of Medieval Philosophy in the Philosophy Faculty of the University of Chile Former Professor of Church History and Patrology at the Faculty of Theology of the Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile

Father Anthony Pillari J.C.L., M.C.L

Prof. Enrico Maria Radaelli Philosopher, editor of the works of Romano Amerio

Dr. John Rao Associate Professor of History, St. John’s University, NYC; Chairman, Roman Forum

Dr. Carlo Regazzoni Licentiate in Philosophy at University of Freiburg

Dr. Giuseppe Reguzzoni External Researcher at the Catholic University of Milan and former editorial assistant of Communio, International Catholic Review (Italian edition)

Prof. Arkadiusz Robaczewski Former Professor at the Catholic University of Lublin

Advertisement  Fr Settimio M. Sancioni STD Licence in Biblical Science

Prof. Andrea Sandri Research Associate, Catholic University of the Sacred Heart in Milan

Dr. Joseph Shaw Tutor in Moral philosophy, St Benet’s Hall, University of Oxford

Fr Paolo M. Siano HED (Historiae Ecclesiasticae Doctor)

Dr. Cristina Siccardi Historian of the Church

Dr Anna Silvas Adjunct research fellow, University of New England, NSW, Australia

Prof. Dr Thomas Stark Phil.-Theol. Hochschule Benedikt XVI, Heiligenkreuz

Rev. Glen Tattersall Parish Priest, Parish of Bl. John Henry Newman, archdiocese of Melbourne; Rector, St Aloysius’ Church

Prof. Giovanni Turco Associate Professor of Philosophy of Public Law at the University of Udine Member Correspondent of the Pontificia Accademia San Tommaso d'Aquino

Prof. Piero Vassallo Former editor of Cardinal Siri’s theological review Renovatio

Advertisement  Prof. Arnaldo Vidigal Xavier da Silveira Former Professor at the Pontifical University of São Paulo, Brazil


TOPICS: Breaking News
KEYWORDS: catholic; francischurch; pope; popechosenbygod; popefrancis; popefrancisheresy; praytomary; scc; selectedbygod
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To: Empireoftheatom48

Now THERE is a bit of art worthy of having red enamel thrown on it.


121 posted on 09/25/2017 8:43:27 AM PDT by bboop (does not suffer fools gladly)
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To: winoneforthegipper

This pope reaffirms my decision to leave the Catholic Church.


122 posted on 09/25/2017 9:33:41 AM PDT by Linda Frances (Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness.)
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To: winoneforthegipper

Mr. Bergoglio is a heretic and an apostate and he should be removed from office and then excommunicated as he deserves.

Instead he’ll probably be made a saint after he dies because of all the great things he did for homosexuals and Muslims.


123 posted on 09/25/2017 9:58:13 AM PDT by MeganC (Democrat by birth, Republican by default, conservative by principle.)
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To: winoneforthegipper

bkmk


124 posted on 09/25/2017 11:17:32 AM PDT by Sergio (An object at rest cannot be stopped! - The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight)
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To: HarleyLady27

As a conservative Catholic, for now at least, I demand it!!!
No way on God’s green earth, did Pope Benedict NEED to retire!
The fix was in here on this!!


125 posted on 09/25/2017 5:45:30 PM PDT by bantam
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To: winoneforthegipper

They get no clicks from the text representation of an ad in the excerpt. The person creating the excerpt should bother to remove the ad text.


126 posted on 09/25/2017 7:36:08 PM PDT by posterchild ("Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - R. Feynman)
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To: mdmathis6

I do believe it will be brought back to what it was,the earth prior to the fall. Good news, even any possible issues as you have mentioned will be gone as well.


127 posted on 09/26/2017 4:21:02 AM PDT by Biggirl ("One Lord, one faith, one baptism" - Ephesians 4:5)
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To: Linda Frances

Leaving the Catholic Church is ill-considered. If the Pope damages the Church via heresy, do you heal the Church via abandonment?


128 posted on 09/26/2017 5:52:17 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The severed Hand cannot heal the Body.")
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To: BillyBoy

Ping


129 posted on 09/26/2017 10:22:38 PM PDT by Impy (The democrat party is the enemy of your family and civilization itself, forget that at your peril.)
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To: caww

The Guardian Angel Cathedral in Las Vegas has a mural of naked flying men above the altar, reminds me of that. Very similar to the painting in the movie “Around the World in 80 Days” with Jackie Chan.


130 posted on 09/27/2017 8:03:19 AM PDT by blackpacific
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To: blackpacific

Well the Catholic Churches have mega relics and statues depicting nakedness and death. ....which they call art or veneration pieces. It’s really quite disgusting over all. ..and why some think they’re a death cult because of the copses and body parts they frame, encapsulate, and bow before.

But your not going to change this because they make lots of money transporting these around the world for that purpose.


131 posted on 09/27/2017 8:52:05 AM PDT by caww (freeen)
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To: caww

wacko


132 posted on 09/27/2017 12:10:50 PM PDT by PraiseTheLord
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To: PraiseTheLord

Touchy....


133 posted on 09/27/2017 1:21:11 PM PDT by caww (freeen)
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To: caww

I was commenting on disgusting modernist art, from the 1960’s and later.

Saints relics are not appealing to all. The relics are a reminder of beloved souls who have gone before us to their eternal reward. But like you said, old bones, hair, nails, or dried blood are somewhat revolting to see.

For example, in Louisville at St. Martin of Tours Catholic church there are two complete skeletons of two Roman Centurians, Magnus and Bonosa, who were sent out to round up the early Christians for martyrdom. But they converted and were executed themselves around 200 AD. What is amazing to see about the relics is how short they were, about 4.5’ tall. As a Catholic their relics reminded me that the Church is a continuous family of believers, friends of Jesus Christ, lovers of both God and man, from the Apostles down to the current day.

Of course, seeing the saints after they receive their glorified bodies will be so awesome, all these relics will be gone.


134 posted on 09/28/2017 4:23:43 PM PDT by blackpacific
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To: blackpacific
Well they're dead body parts and dead skeletons no matter how they're presented or what story behind them that was...they're still human remains displayed as religious items, when in fact they're dead bodies and parts....in a jar, behind a glass wall, in a cylinder..it's still displaying dead body parts people kiss and or bow before....and that..yes..is rather ‘revolting’ as you say...in fact a bit more than that. I guess some whose faith might be weak think they need to see these to know their churches history, though it would do well perhaps to escape much of that as I see it and live in the New testament era and beyond til today....where I see the whole church family united continuously in the centrality of Jesus Christ.
135 posted on 09/28/2017 5:04:29 PM PDT by caww (freeen)
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To: caww

The veneration of relics might be revolting if viewed from a pure anatomical point of view. But there have been many miracles associated with them. Much like the woman who was healed by merely touching the hem of His garment. It is all the Grace of Jesus Christ, yet even so, He takes delight in bringing about healings that are associated with His closest friends. Not because they are distinct from Him, but because their Christian example was heroic, and we are called to imitate them, as their perfect Charity is the one virtue that Jesus Christ expects of us, more than any other virtue.

In the realm of learning, some people are more auditory learners, others are more visual, some really benefit from tactile experiences. Saints relics as far as I am concerned are nice reminders that I belong to the family of God. It is no different than when my beloved Grandfather’s effects were being distributed, my mom asked if I wanted his professional engineering certificate, which was in a handsome metal frame. I got all choked up reading the certificate, as I was one of a few of his grandchildren who had gone on to become an engineer. It was a stupid little piece of paper, but it brought to mind so many memories. As I pray my way through this life, I have been blessed with the company of the Holy Family and many of my favorite and patron saints. If I were to obtain a little piece of thread or chip of bone that was associated with any of them, I would be happy to have such relics, even if someone else might think it silly.

For example, I was blessed to have the opportunity to visit Notre Dame Cathedral this last June. Being a first Friday, we had the opportunity to pray before THE Crown of Thorns. You know, the one that Jesus Christ wore on the Cross. It was displayed behind a sheet of red glass about five feet from where we knelt. It is only a bunch of twisted vines, most of the thorns have been broken off and shared (~70) with other Catholic churches throughout the world. But it was a very poignant moment for me. He worn that crown for me, He died for me alone, it was my sins that put Him to death. And there I was mere feet away from that horrible item of torture that He wore out of love for me. The Crown of Thorns is another Catholic relic, some might say we don’t need to see it or kiss it or contemplate in its presence, but for me it was a truly blessed moment.


136 posted on 09/29/2017 7:38:23 PM PDT by blackpacific
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To: ClearCase_guy

“It wouldn’t fix everything, but if I had the chance, I’d hand the Pope a Bible with the strong suggestion that he read it.”

Or nail 95 points of correction to his door.


137 posted on 09/29/2017 7:40:45 PM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (I don't want better government; I want much less of it.)
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To: blackpacific
Those ritual practices certainly were not a desire which came from our Christian/Judaic heritage...in Jewish law the body is a source of ritual pollution, a thing to be disposed of as quickly as possible.... burial of the deceased was always held to be of greatest importance........ additionally we know that many a battle throughout history where a truce is called so that each side can bury its dead....and this because life was held not to have come to a natural and proper close until one’s body had been buried. ... History tells us the Jews, Greeks and Romans actually shunned unburied human remains and went to great lengths to see that a persons remains were buried.....even before Christianity.

People ‘choose’ where they put their faith....be it in something they 'believe' has power... they ‘touch’ or what they ‘see’....in order to create an anticipated experience by such an attachment,... or something more than the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and what he has accomplished...... Yet Jesus said “Blessed” are those who believe without seeing. .and that our faith is increased in this manner ...”Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God”.....

Relic worship/venerating isn't necessary....in fact as you said, with dismembered body parts, it certainly can be seen as ‘revolting’......and I'll add health risks. For the Christian faith I practice to even think there is power in dismembered body parts is like believing ‘in channeling’... practiced by soothsayers/magicians and their lot.

138 posted on 09/29/2017 9:25:39 PM PDT by caww (freeen)
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To: caww

Not a single Catholic, qua Catholic, venerates the dead. All of the saints are alive in Christ, they have survived as St. Augustine puts it, the second death. Catholics are forbidden from praying to deceased relatives and friends since they may not be in heaven. But canonized saints are in the glory of the beautific vision, wrapt in the unimaginable Love of God. Any Grace we receive through their intercession comes from Jesus Christ. The Communion of Saints is a lovely thing. We get to participate in God’s gift giving. Much like human parents get to participate in bringing a new person into being and into eternity from nothing.

The miracles associated with holy relics, whether it be things associated with saints such as clothing or articles or bits of their bodies is undeniable, often unexpected. If one’s reality involves denying this reality, what type of reality is it? There is also the problem of incorruptibles. Why does God preserve some of his saints bodies incorrupt? Why is St. Jacinta incorrupt? Why is St. Rita de Cassius incorrupt? Why was the heart of St. Joan of Arc found incorrupt in the ashes? Or the tongue of St. Edward the Confessor only? What is God trying to tell us? One can deny such things, but they do exist, and such denial is again someone’s safe little reality that is not real.


139 posted on 09/30/2017 7:52:57 AM PDT by blackpacific
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To: blackpacific

It really doesn’t matter what fluff stories any religion attaches to these....the fact these are unburied dead skeleton remains and decayed dismembered body parts cannot be denied..... How people choose to prevent burial, regardless of what religion, and what rituals they practice ‘believing’ that these body parts have some sort of mystical power or holy part in their worship is, as mentioned prior, well known among Haitians, Pagan tribes in Africa, soothsayers and the like.

This is not something Jesus practiced nor did he encourage us to do so.


140 posted on 09/30/2017 8:19:45 AM PDT by caww (freeen)
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