Posted on 09/23/2017 4:03:36 PM PDT by winoneforthegipper
The Israelites would not leave Egypt until they had the bones of Joseph, and the Pharaoh endured all of the plagues except the last one until he released them.
The Israelites would not leave Egypt until they had the bones of Joseph, and the Pharaoh endured all of the plagues except the last one until he released them.
Also, why is it that roughly 100 trillion single cell organisms do not consume the incorrupt body of St. Rita?
Not unusual to ‘transport’ dead bodies for burial in their homeland for obvious reasons....fact remains they buried the body.
Mummification embalming fluid that’s how..... bodies were often treated with preservatives as soon as the person died so that the body would be able to be kept for longer for public viewing before burial....Further there is any number of ‘ordinary people’ ,who were not religious,whose bodies were untouched by decay....Buddhist Monks and yogis have also escaped decay.
In China, mummies with European features up to ‘4000 years old’ were found in the Tarim Basin desert 30 years ago. They are so well preserved and preserved much better than many Catholic saints who are mere centuries old that they look as if they are recently dead... Their clothes were remarkably preserved as well. One mummy had an intact goose feather in her hat.
The best ever preserved corpse is that of ‘Xin Zhui’ which was found in China in 1971.... Her death is dated to 178–145 BC......bout 50 at death..... An autopsy found that she seemed to be only a short time dead. They found her organs were intact. Her blood was still red in her veins.
Nobody knows for sure what was responsible for such a remarkable preservation. Her airtight coffin is thought to have contributed to it. A liquid in the coffin in a shade of red may explain the mystery but nobody knows what it is. The bodies of her neighbours Sui Xiaoyuan and Ling Huiping are similarly well preserved.
Xin’s body is kept in the Hunan Provincial Museum. She proves that bodies can be inexplicably preserved without accounting for it with the supernatural.
Finally , there is no such thing as a saint’s corpse that remains the same way for decades, that keeps looking like it just died... ‘All’ of the bodies are unpleasant to look at in their natural state... ‘None’ of them are flexible.... if a corpse looks remarkably good through mummification or whatever this is not incorruption. ...
Mummification is just a form of decomposition or desiccation. The corpse is just decomposing well for its age!
So not a single Catholic incorruptible is a miracle of God? I mean you cannot have a single one, because then there could be others...
Do you believe in miracles of any type?
So no miracles, all incorruptibles can be explained by natural causes, such as mummification, great embalming fluids, etc...
There are two problems with your statements in this regard:
1. Mummification is the orderly dehydration of human tissue, think beef jerky. That would explain an incorruptible that was totally dehydrated. But there are many that are plump, full of fluid.
2. Okay, so maybe many were embalmed with really top notch preservatives. Yes, that could explain some phenomena, but many of the incorruptibles were never embalmed. Think Irish wake. The deceased is laid upon a bed of ice, the relatives gather
to drink and commemorate their loved one, then when the ice melts the deceased is put in a pine box and interred.
So, what is really at the heart of your world view is the absolute disbelief that God works signs for us through miracles. The fact that you disbelieve even the greatest of these, the incorruptibles, is a testament to your unfounded belief that all phenomena can be explained by natural causes, or maybe it is desired that God does not exist?
I will pray to St. Rita de Cassius for your conversion. That God With Us, Emmanuel, Who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, will show you the way home.
Pope Francis is a nutball. How did this happen?
Was out of town a few days so will respond to your post now...
You stated.....”So, what is really at the heart of your world view is the absolute disbelief that God works signs for us through miracles. The fact that you disbelieve even the greatest of these, the incorruptibles, is a testament to your unfounded belief that all phenomena can be explained by natural causes”......
Not even close in your assumptions. But I will admit that most all of the declared miracles in many church institutions that dramatize these do so to keep the cash flows going into their coffers. So yes I want it proved as such....unfortunately that rarely happens.
Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation demands ‘a sign’, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Then He left them and went away.
Mark 8:12
Jesus sighed deeply in His spirit and said, “Why does this generation demand a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to this generation.”
Luke 11:29
As the crowds were increasing, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.
Argument by association. One of the weakest forms of argument.
When saints are buried, no one asks for them to be made incorruptible. They are found later, some times hundreds of years later. It is a sign, for us to study and imitate their life. But it is not a sign we asked for due to disbelief.
Your arguments that all incorruptibles can be explained by natural causes is what atheists use. Sorry if I assumed you were not a believer in Jesus Christ.
As is the general case there really is no way to convince someone who ‘wants to believe’ in untruths .....they can’t get beyond what they’ve been indoctrinated to believe.
Fro all I’ve seen and noted any religion can create relics and various other tricks of their trade to keep people engaged. There is a difference between ones faith in a person and that of objects and dead corpses...no matter what they look like.
Paraphrasing G K Chesterton in his “Orthodoxy”, a maniac’s small vision of the world explains everything that is, but it is a much smaller world than the one we live in.
There are incorruptibles, and no matter how much you deny their existence, they still exist. But if your doctrinal formation is such that they cannot exist, then they must not exist...
I’ve only seen a few incorruptibles, St. Catherine Laboure and another nun from her community in Paris, and the burnt remains of St. Genevieve, the patron saint of Paris, an incorruptible that the French revolutionaries burned and threw in the river during the Reign of Terror. I would love to see more, but we have so few here in the United States.
This is a nice reference for believers in the miracles of incorruptibles and those who simply cannot believe:
https://www.amazon.com/Incorruptibles-Incorruption-Bodies-Various-Catholic/dp/0895550660
And here is a list of places that have fairly complete relic collections. What is missing from this list is the Benedictine Abbey in Still River, MA.
United States
Chicago, Illinois
Relic: Over 2000 relics, including some of all 12 Apostlesand 24 of the 33 Doctors of the Church
Where: St. John Cantius Parish,825 North Carpenter Street Chicago, Illinois 60622-5405, Phone:312-243-7373
St. Marys, Kansas
Relic: Practically every Saint who’s ever lived
Where: At St. Mary’s Academy,there’s a Relic Chapel that contains an incredible amount of first class relics (though no major tombs or shrines). The address is: St.Mary’s Academy & College, 200 E. Mission Street, St. Marys, KS66536
Louisville, Kentucky
Relic: St. Bonosa and St. Magnus
Where: At St. Martin of Toursparish church, 639 South Shelby Street, Louisville, Kentucky, 40202
Emmitsburg, Maryland
Relic: St. Elizabeth Ann Seton
Where: Seton Shrine Chapel,Emmitsburg, Frederick County, Maryland
Relic: St. Frances Cabrini
Where: St. Frances CabriniShrine, 701 Fort Washington Avenue, New York City, New York
Maria Stein, Ohio
Relic: Practically every Saint who’s ever lived
Where: Another Relic Chapel likethat of St. Mary’s Academy in Kansas (no major tombs or shrines) is the Maria Stein Center. The address is: 2291 St. Johns Road, Maria Stein,Ohio 45860, (419) 925-4532
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Relic: St. John Neumann
Where: National Shrine of SaintJohn Neumann, 1019 North Fifth Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19123
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Relic: Practically every Saint who’s ever lived
Where: Another Relic Chapel —the largest in the United States — is St. Anthony’s Chapel in the MostHoly Name of Jesus parish. The address is: 1700 Harpster St.,Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (Troy Hill).
There are facts, and there are beliefs, and there are things some want so badly to believe that they become as facts to them....they will keep on believing, despite all the evidence that they are wrong.
Furthermore.... people convince themselves or remain convinced of what ‘they want’ to believe...seeking out agreeable information while they avoid, ignore, devalue, forget, or argue against information that contradicts their beliefs... doing all the mental gymnastics it takes to remain convinced that they’re right.
As has been said....”The real enemy of truth is not ignorance, doubt, or even disbelief,.It is false knowledge.”
Just stick a mirror up when you read your last post .
Problem solved.
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