Police Bullets Hit Bikers During the Waco Police Shootout

The Atlantic ^ | 09/22/2015 | Conor Friedersdorf

[E. Pluribus Unum]

Cops in the Texas city shot motorcyclists, arrested all the witnesses, and have since prohibited them from speaking out under penalty of contempt.

Four months after a shootout left 9 bikers dead at the Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco, Texas, prompting the arrest of 177 people, many of them presumably innocent, authorities are still denying the public access to key pieces of evidence, including video. The legal fate of arrestees still hangs in the balance. And it still isn’t known how many of the dead bikers were killed by bullets that police officers fired.

But police bullets did hit some of the bikers, the Associated Press reports after reviewing 8,800 pages of evidence apparently leaked to the news organization. “The gunfire included rounds fired by police that hit bikers, though it isn't clear whether those rifle shots caused any of the fatalities,” Emily Schmall reports. “Investigators have offered scant details about what sparked the fight or how the gunfire played out, and no one has been charged.” 18 bikers were wounded but survived the melee.

[House Atreides]

IBTG

[E. Pluribus Unum]

What does IBTG mean?

[Loud Mime]

12 cluster rounds??

[House Atreides]

What does IBTG mean?
******************************************************
In Before Texas Gator. TexasGator is the FR user name of a defender of Statists killing people he dislikes.

[vette6387]

“If it was a biker ambush, a lot more cops would have shot, and there would be a lot more dead people. You may not like the armed response, but the shooting started between the bikers.”

And just how do you know that? No one else I’ve read does.

[vette6387]

“I suspect all of them were hit by police bullets which is why the police don’t want to release any information to anyone. “

I think that’s true and in the end Waco is going to have to pay and some of “their own” are going to go to jail for a very long time. I just hope this big-mouth cop, Swanton is in jail first.

[vette6387]

“Is all of that evidence tainted? “

One would think so because there is a “chain of custody” requirement. But then, it’s Waco so maybe not. From what I’ve read, the Waco “LEO/Judicial System” is corrupt, so I just wonder why Texans are not disturbed and making sure that the state investigates this whole thing.

[Finny]

The fact that police asked the restaurant to not host the event and were refused is not in dispute. The fact that the police were there in order to act as a deterrent to biker gang violence is not in dispute.

Excuse me, but I'm pretty sure that the first point WAS in dispute, if I remember correctly, the restaurant said indeed NO ONE asked them not to host the meeting. As for the second point, CERTAINLY it is in dispute! Hello??????

thefactor, here is a plain and simple FACT: Fully two thirds of the supposedly violently murderous criminal gang members arrested had ZERO criminal records in Texas, although ALL of them, with ONE possible exception, were Texas residents. That is TRULY a fact that is not in dispute.

THEREFORE ... thefactor, you have to ask yourself -- are Texas cops THAT inept, that amateurish, that ineffectual, that MOST OF THE TIME IN TEXAS, really bad violent dudes don't even get caught? Even when they wear plainly visible insignia that broadcasts to "experts" in law enforcement that they are criminals?

OR, thefactor, do you think that it isn't because Texas cops are inept and ineffectual, but rather that these 117 violent criminals are so very wily, smart, and skilled that TWO THIRDS OF THEM manage to avoid detection altogether when they do their bad deeds in Texas?

OR, thefactor, do you think that these bikers arrested have criminal records in other states because they restrict their assault, robbery, murder, mayhem, meth-pushing, and human trafficking to areas OUTSIDE of Texas?

Apparently, your brain is closed off to idea that the cops screwed up royally and are LYING because they arrested a whole lotta Sunday mom-and-pop bikers because LE's so-called "experts" couldn't find their own patoots with a flashlight.

[Finny]

Correction to my post #48 above --

OR, thefactor, do you think that it isn't because Texas cops are inept and ineffectual, but rather that these 117 violent criminals are so very wily, smart, and skilled that ALL 117 OF THEM manage to avoid detection altogether when they do their bad deeds in Texas?

[don-o]

In Before Texas Gator. TexasGator is the FR user name of a defender of Statists killing people he dislikes.

There is also a theory that he may be the one time Waco PD mouthpiece, Sgt Patrick Swanton. He is currently campaigning for Sheriff of McLennan County

[USNBandit]

I chose to believe the public statements made by bikers to the media. It is totally plausible that those bikers might lie about their own actions. Would they lie to cover the for a police ambush? I don't think so.

The Cossacks who made public statements said the first shot came from Bandidos. That might not be true, but if the first bullets came from police, why would the Cossacks blame it on police.

[LucyT]

Check article and comments; watch out for trolls.

[vette6387]

“The Cossacks who made public statements said the first shot came from Bandidos. That might not be true, but if the first bullets came from police, why would the Cossacks blame it on police.’

Consider that in the melee and the fact that people are being shot, trying to “get the lay of the land” so to speak, might not be anyone’s highest priority. Hell, one cop could have fired a shot in the air, and that could have touched off the whole thing.

[sport]

Yeah! The Waco threads attract an abundance of them.

[LucyT]

Someone managed to photograph a few of them, cute ain't they? hehheh:

[USNBandit]

Is there any account from any source that suggests a police officer started the gunfight by firing in the air? If so, please share it.

[Smokin' Joe]

The fact that the police were there in order to act as a deterrent to biker gang violence is not in dispute.

Considering the event in question was a COC&I meeting, normally a non-violent event--a meeting between club member bikers and independent bikers for the purpose of discussing legislative issues, road construction areas, and run schedules to prevent scheduling conflicts--violence was far from a given. In fact, it would be the exception, rather than the rule in the history of such meetings.

Therefore, if the police anticipated some violent confrontation, (which would have been most abnormal, given the meeting scheduled), either they had people on the inside of the clubs involved in the conflict at Waco, or they had agents inside those groups who had provoked the incident, and done so well enough in advance that this meeting had heavy LEO attendance as well.

In most circles, these are known as agents provocateur. If the 'word came back through the grapevine' that there was to be a violent confrontation, follow the grapevine to its very blue roots.

The presence of Waco, County, State, and Federal LEOs, including BATFE at the shindig indicates some serious planning in LEO land, some heavy forethought, whether malice was present or not.

The presence of marked police vehicles in and around what is supposed to be a peaceful meeting may have a provocative aspect of its own. Certainly, bikers notice increased law enforcement presence, where normally there is none. That trips a flag--as it should with any person--and causes one to ask, "What's going down? Why so many police?". When that many police come just to sniff your saddlebags, your alert level goes up a notch.

So let me trot out my tinfoil hat for a moment.

Suppose one or more Informants or Undercover Agents were to tell members of the specific club they had infiltrated to 'let it all hang out, the police will be there and they've got your back'.

No one is disputing that there was/is enmity between a couple of the groups which showed up.

Normally, such is suppressed for the purpose of dealing with more universal issues in a venue for that, like COC&I meetings, which deal with issues which are problems for all bikers. But throwing something into the mix which might make one group or another be a mite more cocky or stressed--or both--makes fertile ground for conflict.

LEOs know this, they use Ericksonian Hypnosis techniques to extract information from susceptible suspects daily. After all the PSYOPS division of Obama's government just openly got the green light to 'nudge' the general population, and an event like this (pilot project?) is perfect for pushing the 'guilt by association' meme at the American people just when TEA Party season is rolling around again.

So are we just seeing a colossal (and potentially profitable, between property seizure, bond, jail usage (177 beds?), attorney fees, court costs, etc.) operation designed to hammer at the ideas of freedom of association, due process, and the 4th Amendment, to name a few?

So far, this has cost the accused their jobs, businesses, a small fortune on bond costs, attorney fees, and so much more. It has cost the owner of the restaurant his business, his franchise, and God only knows what else. It has cost more than a few their lives, or pain and suffering from being wounded, not to mention lost time at work.

The autopsy reports have been released. The Medical Examiner's job is not to provide ballistics data, but cause of death and evidence related thereto is either in the report or referred to those considered qualified to catalog and identify it. We still don't know who was shot by police, or by who else. We still await the video form the scene, recorded by business security cameras, police dashcams, pole cameras erected by police, and personal cell phones and other recording devices. Those of the latter which have been returned (all were confiscated) were wiped.

So the police control the evidence, and thus control the narrative.

When discovery occurs, we won't even know how much Brady Material has been buried, erased, altered, edited, or simply made to disappear. Winston Smith would have loved electronic data.

But in virtually every other instance when the police controlled the narrative, like the last time an incident in Waco captured national attention, there was abundant coverage of the event, video released in very short order, which only after careful analysis and consideration showed irregularities between the official statements and actual events. Evidence disappeared from that event--critical evidence which would have showed who shot first.

There is another tie to that event.

Swanton was also involved in the aftermath at Mount Carmel and was awarded the Police Commendation bar along with his other teammates for their involvement.National Institute of Crime Prevention

Now, I would hesitate to guess when these cases will be resolved, but I would bet it is not going to be for a while.

Why?

Waco Police Sgt. Swanton Says He'll Run For Sheriff In 2016

There is a lot to this you won't read about in the Waco Tribune.

[vette6387]

“Is there any account from any source that suggests a police officer started the gunfight by firing in the air? If so, please share it.”

I DID NOT say that they did, but rather that with all the tension between the various biker groups it would have been all that was needed to start a gunfight. One loud “pop” and the fight would be on!

[Finny]

Excellent post.