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"My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?"
ligonier.org The Teaching Fellowship of Calvinist R.C. Sproul ^ | 3/30/15 | Joel Beeke

Posted on 03/31/2015 2:13:21 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper

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My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?”

from Mar 30, 2015 Category: Articles

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”(Matt. 27:46, KJV).

It is noon, and Jesus has been on the cross for three pain-filled hours. Suddenly, darkness falls on Calvary and “over all the land” (v. 45). By a miraculous act of Almighty God, midday becomes midnight.

This supernatural darkness is a symbol of God’s judgment on sin. The physical darkness signals a deeper and more fearsome darkness.

The great High Priest enters Golgotha’s Holy of Holies without friends or enemies. The Son of God is alone on the cross for three final hours, enduring what defies our imagination. Experiencing the full brunt of His Father’s wrath, Jesus cannot stay silent. He cries out: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

This phrase represents the nadir, the lowest point, of Jesus’ sufferings. Here Jesus descends into the essence of hell, the most extreme suffering ever experienced. It is a time so compacted, so infinite, so horrendous as to be incomprehensible and, seemingly, unsustainable.

Jesus’ cry does not in any way diminish His deity. Jesus does not cease being God before, during, or after this. Jesus’ cry does not divide His human nature from His divine person or destroy the Trinity. Nor does it detach Him from the Holy Spirit. The Son lacks the comforts of the Spirit, but He does not lose the holiness of the Spirit. And finally, it does not cause Him to disavow His mission. Both the Father and Son knew from all eternity that Jesus would become the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world (Acts 15:18). It is unthinkable that the Son of God might question what is happening or be perplexed when His Father’s loving presence departs.

Jesus is expressing the agony of unanswered supplication (Ps. 22:1–2). Unanswered, Jesus feels forgotten of God. He is also expressing the agony of unbearable stress. It is the kind of “roaring” mentioned in Psalm 22: the roar of desperate agony without rebellion. It is the hellish cry uttered when the undiluted wrath of God overwhelms the soul. It is heart-piercing, heaven-piercing, and hell-piercing. Further, Jesus is expressing the agony of unmitigated sin. All the sins of the elect, and the hell that they deserve for eternity, are laid upon Him. And Jesus is expressing the agony of unassisted solitariness. In His hour of greatest need comes a pain unlike anything the Son has ever experienced: His Father’s abandonment. When Jesus most needs encouragement, no voice cries from heaven, “This is my beloved Son.” No angel is sent to strengthen Him; no “well done, thou good and faithful servant” resounds in His ears. The women who supported Him are silent. The disciples, cowardly and terrified, have fled. Feeling disowned by all, Jesus endures the way of suffering alone, deserted, and forsaken in utter darkness. Every detail of this horrific abandonment declares the heinous character of our sins!

But why would God bruise His own Son (Isa. 53:10)? The Father is not capricious, malicious, or being merely didactic. The real purpose is penal; it is the just punishment for the sin of Christ’s people. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Cor. 5:21).

Christ was made sin for us, dear believers. Among all the mysteries of salvation, this little word “for” exceeds all. This small word illuminates our darkness and unites Jesus Christ with sinners. Christ was acting on behalf of His people as their representative and for their benefit.

With Jesus as our substitute, God’s wrath is satisfied and God can justify those who believe in Jesus (Rom. 3:26). Christ’s penal suffering, therefore, is vicarious — He suffered on our behalf. He did not simply share our forsakenness, but He saved us from it. He endured it for us, not with us. You are immune to condemnation (Rom. 8:1) and to God’s anathema (Gal. 3:13) because Christ bore it for you in that outer darkness. Golgotha secured our immunity, not mere sympathy.

This explains the hours of darkness and the roar of dereliction. God’s people experience just a taste of this when they are brought by the Holy Spirit before the Judge of heaven and earth, only to experience that they are not consumed for Christ’s sake. They come out of darkness, confessing, “Because Immanuel has descended into the lowest hell for us, God is with us in the darkness, under the darkness, through the darkness — and we are not consumed!”

How stupendous is the love of God! Indeed, our hearts so overflow with love that we respond, “We love him, because he first loved us” (1 John 4:19).

This post was originally published in Tabletalk magazine.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: comfort; easter; holyweek; jesus; religion
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To: editor-surveyor
Not yet!!!

He will be cast down in the middle of Daniel’s 70th week. The war in Heaven has not yet happened. All mention of it is future prophecy, it all happens during the first half of the 70th week.

This is something that has to happen soon.


There can't be a war in heaven in the future because the devil can't get into heaven to make war. He was cast out before man was put on the earth. He was put on the earth and allowed to tempt mankind so that mankind could learn and choose good from evil.

There will be war on this earth in the future and the devil and his angels will be sent to their final place. .
241 posted on 04/23/2015 9:39:32 AM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: StormPrepper; Elsie; caww; Alamo-Girl; Colofornian; Zakeet; Tennessee Nana
Luke 13 was written to you, Mormon. You are following a false prophet being led to your destruction by denying 'the power thereof', The Holy Spirit. You do not comprehend the Church is not an institution, it is the body of believers in His atonement and who share the Holy Spirit of promise Who came to indwell at Pentecost and has not left the Earth since that day. The great lie of joe smith was that the Church (as he mistakenly saw it, an institution doling out 'graces from the hierarchy') is an organization headed by men supposedly being led by a prophet, imaginarily being inspired by the god of Mormonism.

The 'prophet' of Mormonism has been found to deceive people, openly, on TV no less. This is not a prophet of God, it is a blind leader of the blind. The Lorenzo Snow couplet stands as witness to the foolishness that is Mormonism.

To YOU Paul wrote, 2 Timothy 3:1-5
Verse 1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

Verse 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves (Earning His Grace by all that you can do!), covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Verse 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Verse 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Verse 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

The power thereof is The Holy Spirit within, guiding the regeneration of the fallen man. By claiming you must earn this Grace, you are denying the Holy Spirit, denying the power thereof.

242 posted on 04/23/2015 10:18:13 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: StormPrepper

The “devil” is in heaven, and has been for 6000 years.

He will be cast out at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week, bringing on his tribulation of the saints.

He has access to Earth as he pleases, but his chief occupation is accusing the saints before the throne of the Father.

The war here on Earth comes after the first resurrection, and after the bowl judgements that follow the first resurrection.
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243 posted on 04/23/2015 10:44:24 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: All; StormPrepper; Salvation; caww; Mark17; RnMomof7; Tennessee Nana
Let's see if we can illustrate this concept of 'the power thereof'.

First, if you have a child, you are to raise up that child in the way that they should go. You don't beat it into that child, you don't withhold food, shelter, and love from that child until they can show they have earned it.

You love that child so you grow that child gradually into the person who will know the right way through a life of growing into adulthood. The suckling baby is not fed strong meat in the beginning. You do not withhold blessing to the child until they prove themselves worthy. You instill in the child as it grows toward adulthood The Way. So it is that God grows us as we mature in The Way, by His indwelling nature as The Holy Spirit.

Now how does God tell us He is raising up His children in the way that they should go? ... Well, by indwelling them when they are 'born again' in this life, still on this earth, in order that they can 'see the Kingdom of God'. As Jesus showed Nicodemus:

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? (Nicodemus is asking the question you refuse to ask, regarding how it is that The Holy Spirit can indwell while we are on the earth.)

Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus tells Nic how God in the Holy Spirit is to be here on Earth, so that those indwelt may then see/enter into the kingdom of God, the Heavenly things. When Paul wrote to Timothy about 'denying the power thereof, he was explicitly pointing to this indwelling, and if there is no evidence of the character of God coming out in the behavior of the man, that man is not under 'the power thereof, the guiding loving power of The indwelling Holy Spirit.

Jesus uses the present tense with Nicodemus, showing that being born again is something happening now, not 'after all that you can do. Paul tells Timothy that to deny the power thereof is to deny The Holy Spirit the right to transform in the now, a process God accomplishes at the spirit level in the here and now, preparing the believer, the born again to live in His Kingdom. That preparation is GOD raising a new born up in the Way that should go, by the daily indwelling and transforming Holy Spirit.

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Peace be with you, be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.

244 posted on 04/23/2015 10:51:41 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: MHGinTN; All; StormPrepper; Salvation; caww; Mark17; RnMomof7; Tennessee Nana

.
>> “Jesus uses the present tense with Nicodemus, showing that being born again is something happening now” <<

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Not!

He did exactly the opposite.

The words of chapter 3 that you posted deny your premise.

First, no one here sees the kingdom of God. If you could see it, you could describe it.

Verse 8 makes it abundantly clear that nobody is yet “born again” in the sense that Yeshua is explaining to Nicodemus. Can you move invisibly like the wind? Can people hear you but not see where you’re going? Those that are born again will have that capacity, Yeshua said so!

Being born again into an incorruptible body will be the difference between resurrection, and remaining here on Earth to see the wrath of God of the Bowl Judgements.

Born again as Yeshua explains it, and born again as Peter did are two separate things, one we experience in our flesh and blood daily lives, and the other coming later at the day of Trumpets when we are resurrected for the wedding feast.

This is an important thing to understand. It makes the revelations of the NT writings very clear and easy to understand.
.


245 posted on 04/23/2015 11:56:31 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: MHGinTN
Yea, you better call for help...

Luke 13 was written to you, Mormon.

You say this...pointing your finger at me...

And then quote this:

Verse 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves (Earning His Grace by all that you can do!), covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Verse 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Verse 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Verse 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


Pay close attention to "fierce", "despisers of those that are good", heady, highminded (as you accuse others)..

A form of godliness is all you have MHGinTN. Because you have nothing else. Truly.

So, you think Paul was talking everyone but yourself?

You should have kept going, this is my favorite chapter of the Bible. I wonder why you didn't finish it?

2 Tim 3:
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Jannes and Jambres were priests in Pharoah's court. In the last days, these people will resist the prophet just like they did the prophet Moses.

Having a form of godliness but resist the prophet. They are false accusers, fierce, despisers of those that are good.

Now, what was that you said about Lorenzo Snow?

The power thereof is The Holy Spirit within, guiding the regeneration of the fallen man. By claiming you must earn this Grace, you are denying the Holy Spirit, denying the power thereof.

The power that he's speaking of is everything you deny. God speaks to man directly today, God giving more of His word in additional scripture, priesthood power, the power to exalt, etc...

You only believe what you want from the few scriptures you accept. Now that is denying the power of God.

Matt 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

James 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

John 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The list of scripture talking about the necessity of works goes for pages and pages. It's that important that every prophet and Apostle spoke volumes on it. And that's just what we have written down, who knows how much they talked about it in life.

Rev 20 details why....that's how you'll be judged. Your works will witness to what you truly believed.

If your works are unacceptable to the Lord, you're cast out.

Luke 13:
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Luke 13 says clearly that the Lord judged these people's works to be wrong and cast them off. And the people he's rejecting are people that believe on Him. They think they know him. Your "believe only to be saved" theory is against the Lord's own words.

You better believe proper works matter or you will be judged to be without faith at the last day.
246 posted on 04/23/2015 12:11:40 PM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: editor-surveyor
Job 1:
7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Rev 12:
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Hence Satan's statement to the Lord of going to and fro in the earth, because as John saw in Revelation, he had been cast out into the earth.

This is mentioned in Jude 1:6 as well:
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The devil is on the earth and has been from the beginning of man. No unclean thing can dwell with God, when Lucifer rebelled, he was cast out for this cause.


247 posted on 04/23/2015 12:58:54 PM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: StormPrepper

Do you get prophecy?

Revelation 12:8 is in our near future, the middle of Daniel’s 70th week.

The “Angels that kept not their first estate” mentioned by Yeshua’s brother Jude were prior to the Genesis 6 judgement, and had nothing to do with Revelation 12.

Satan is in the throne room of God, accusing the bretherin at this moment.
.


248 posted on 04/23/2015 1:30:04 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
Revelation 12:8 is in our near future, the middle of Daniel’s 70th week.

Where in the world are you getting this?

Do you get prophecy?

I'm certainly not getting your interpretation of it.

John was given a vision, past, present, and future. His vision is not all future happenings.

God is showing John the history of the world, beginning to end. Rev 12 is passed, this is how Satan ended up in the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve. He was cast out after the war in heaven.

The biggest proof is in Mark 5

9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Jesus encountered a man possessed with legions of evil spirits.

Rev 12
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12 had already happened this is how Jesus encountered the legions of evil spirits. And Satan was cast out with them. Satan's on the earth. At least the scriptures say so.
249 posted on 04/23/2015 2:05:51 PM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: SoFloFreeper

On the news/activism forum?


250 posted on 04/23/2015 2:10:17 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The "end of history" will be Worldwide Judaic Theocracy.)
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To: MHGinTN
Peace be with you, be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.

My mind is REALLY stubborn!

251 posted on 04/23/2015 3:26:39 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: StormPrepper
Rev 20 details why....that's how you'll be judged. Your works will witness to what you truly believed.

If your works are unacceptable to the Lord and Joseph Smith!!, you're cast out.



 
 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."
- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
 
 
 
 
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
 
 
 
 
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
 
 
 
 
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
 
 
 
 
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"
- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670


They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.
He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.
He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.
As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.
Who has made this so?
Have I?
Have this people?
Have the world?
No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.
If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.
Can you pass without his inspection?
No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.
They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?
They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224

252 posted on 04/23/2015 3:34:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: StormPrepper
The devil is on the earth and has been from the beginning of man.


253 posted on 04/23/2015 3:36:25 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor
You offered, "Verse 8 makes it abundantly clear that nobody is yet “born again” in the sense that Yeshua is explaining to Nicodemus. Can you move invisibly like the wind? Can people hear you but not see where you’re going? Those that are born again will have that capacity, Yeshua said so!"

I cannot move invisibly like the wind, but The Holy Spirit of God can and that is what Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus when he asked 'how can this being born again be?'. As Paul said clearly, it is God Who is in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. At the stoning of Steven, what did Steven see before he gave up the ghost? Did Jesus tell the Disciples to wait for Pentecost? Why do you suppose that is?

Nicodemus had trouble with that 'You must be born again.' So much so that he reverted to what earthly thing he knew, about being born from his mother's womb. Jesus explained that you must be born again, by the Spirit. The transformational life is God in you, the Hope of Glory.

I again say being Born Again is in the here and now, something which is accomplished by the Spirit of God invisible to your eye but gradually evidenced in the transforming He does in you whereby you begin to evidence the character of God in the soul of man. What transformed the sons of thunder, the doubting Thomas, the denying Peter, etc? No less than God as the Holy Spirit in them.

The Salvation Jesus gives is not pie in the sky in the by and by, it is a new life now, by the Power of His Holy Spirit in the born again believer. Can you behave godly by your efforts? Without the character of God in the soul of man, godliness is beyond your ability. His nature comes into your human spirit when you are born again, and he transforms from the inside out. I have witnessed His work so often in men and women that I will not and cannot deny it is His power, His presence. Thanks be to God it is not of human works lest any man boast of his 'worthiness' to be born again.

254 posted on 04/23/2015 4:03:48 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: MHGinTN
.
>> “The Holy Spirit of God can and that is what Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus” <<

.
No, he was explaining what kind of changes being born again would be for Nicodemus. He was not explaining anything at all about the Holy Spirit. He didn't need to explain anything about the Holy Spirit to Nicodemus; he was the High Priest. He had studied spiritual things for his entire life. He was much like the apostle Paul in terms of knowledge.

He wanted to know about being literally born again into a new incorruptible body that could exist in the realm of the Father.

We all must experience the same changes that Yeshua spoke of. Paul said it too, to the Corinthians, in chapter 15:

[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

This change is what actually "saves" us. That is why the apostles always spoke of salvation as future. They were not doubting our dedication to Yeshua, they were preparing everyone for the total reality of salvation.

.

255 posted on 04/23/2015 4:57:04 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Zakeet
While you're at it, can you please explain why the Angel Moroni hasn't yet received exaltation, his body, his own planet, and his harem of goddess wives

It is very simple. Moroni does not exist. 😱😃😀😄😎 He is a figment of Joe Smith's imagination. I am not even convinced Joe Smith really intended to start a new religion, as much as he wrote a fable, with the intent of selling it. Who knows for sure, but I have my suspicions.

256 posted on 04/23/2015 5:06:41 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
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To: StormPrepper

.
>> “John was given a vision, past, present, and future” <<

Not So!!

Paul was told [19] “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter”

Paul didn’t see any things past. All that he was shown in the vision was future. That is why his descriptions seem so fanciful; he had no knowledge of 21st century military hardware, so he likened what he saw in the vision to the things with which he was familiar.
.


257 posted on 04/23/2015 5:10:29 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: MHGinTN; Elsie; metmom; boatbums; CynicalBear
I'm curious though, as to just what work you might do in life that would make you worthy of the one thing ONLY GOD CAN ACCOMPLISH and He offers as Grace to the unworthy?

Mormonism is just another works based cult, in a long line of works based cults. They may very well all be wrong, but there is no way they can all be right. Someone else said Mormonism attracts people because it offers God status to them. That may be true, but isn't that about the same thing that Satan offered Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? They fell for it, and people are still falling for it, unfortunately.

258 posted on 04/23/2015 5:38:16 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
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To: Mark17

Spot on.


259 posted on 04/23/2015 5:53:03 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: editor-surveyor

“This change is what actually “saves” us.” No, I think you are conflating the transformation by the Holy Spirit in the human spirit during the life on Earth and the new body God promises following the Great White Throne. When Jesus arose from the dead, He had not yet ascended to Heaven of the Father, but He had a body of flesh and bone which could be seen and touched. But you appear to need to be ‘right’ and are not open to looking more deeply so I will say bye bye and let you post on as you see fit. Peace be with you.


260 posted on 04/23/2015 6:03:24 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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