Posted on 03/31/2015 2:13:21 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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from Joel Beeke Mar 30, 2015 Category: Articles
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”(Matt. 27:46, KJV).
It is noon, and Jesus has been on the cross for three pain-filled hours. Suddenly, darkness falls on Calvary and “over all the land” (v. 45). By a miraculous act of Almighty God, midday becomes midnight.
This supernatural darkness is a symbol of God’s judgment on sin. The physical darkness signals a deeper and more fearsome darkness.
The great High Priest enters Golgotha’s Holy of Holies without friends or enemies. The Son of God is alone on the cross for three final hours, enduring what defies our imagination. Experiencing the full brunt of His Father’s wrath, Jesus cannot stay silent. He cries out: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
This phrase represents the nadir, the lowest point, of Jesus’ sufferings. Here Jesus descends into the essence of hell, the most extreme suffering ever experienced. It is a time so compacted, so infinite, so horrendous as to be incomprehensible and, seemingly, unsustainable.
Jesus’ cry does not in any way diminish His deity. Jesus does not cease being God before, during, or after this. Jesus’ cry does not divide His human nature from His divine person or destroy the Trinity. Nor does it detach Him from the Holy Spirit. The Son lacks the comforts of the Spirit, but He does not lose the holiness of the Spirit. And finally, it does not cause Him to disavow His mission. Both the Father and Son knew from all eternity that Jesus would become the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world (Acts 15:18). It is unthinkable that the Son of God might question what is happening or be perplexed when His Father’s loving presence departs.
Jesus is expressing the agony of unanswered supplication (Ps. 22:1–2). Unanswered, Jesus feels forgotten of God. He is also expressing the agony of unbearable stress. It is the kind of “roaring” mentioned in Psalm 22: the roar of desperate agony without rebellion. It is the hellish cry uttered when the undiluted wrath of God overwhelms the soul. It is heart-piercing, heaven-piercing, and hell-piercing. Further, Jesus is expressing the agony of unmitigated sin. All the sins of the elect, and the hell that they deserve for eternity, are laid upon Him. And Jesus is expressing the agony of unassisted solitariness. In His hour of greatest need comes a pain unlike anything the Son has ever experienced: His Father’s abandonment. When Jesus most needs encouragement, no voice cries from heaven, “This is my beloved Son.” No angel is sent to strengthen Him; no “well done, thou good and faithful servant” resounds in His ears. The women who supported Him are silent. The disciples, cowardly and terrified, have fled. Feeling disowned by all, Jesus endures the way of suffering alone, deserted, and forsaken in utter darkness. Every detail of this horrific abandonment declares the heinous character of our sins!
But why would God bruise His own Son (Isa. 53:10)? The Father is not capricious, malicious, or being merely didactic. The real purpose is penal; it is the just punishment for the sin of Christ’s people. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Cor. 5:21).
Christ was made sin for us, dear believers. Among all the mysteries of salvation, this little word “for” exceeds all. This small word illuminates our darkness and unites Jesus Christ with sinners. Christ was acting on behalf of His people as their representative and for their benefit.
With Jesus as our substitute, God’s wrath is satisfied and God can justify those who believe in Jesus (Rom. 3:26). Christ’s penal suffering, therefore, is vicarious — He suffered on our behalf. He did not simply share our forsakenness, but He saved us from it. He endured it for us, not with us. You are immune to condemnation (Rom. 8:1) and to God’s anathema (Gal. 3:13) because Christ bore it for you in that outer darkness. Golgotha secured our immunity, not mere sympathy.
This explains the hours of darkness and the roar of dereliction. God’s people experience just a taste of this when they are brought by the Holy Spirit before the Judge of heaven and earth, only to experience that they are not consumed for Christ’s sake. They come out of darkness, confessing, “Because Immanuel has descended into the lowest hell for us, God is with us in the darkness, under the darkness, through the darkness — and we are not consumed!”
How stupendous is the love of God! Indeed, our hearts so overflow with love that we respond, “We love him, because he first loved us” (1 John 4:19).
This post was originally published in Tabletalk magazine.
Using my suggestion, let’s substitute Aaron for Lord.
Does “[Aaron] spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire...”
seem the same or different from
“The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire...”?
What’s the full context of Ex. 33 ? The Lord is speaking with Moses and manifesting himself in a variety of ways to the Israelites. Moses begs the Lord to show him his ‘glory’.
The Lord grants this request and does so in a very specific way: 21Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; 22and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. 23“Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”
So a separate and distinct experience occurs for Moses (twice) and then the Israelites. Why?
Perhaps it is the differing nature of Moses and of the Israelites. Moses shows enough faith, asks to see God’s glory and is shown God’s back parts. What exactly is God’s glory?
Perhaps the reason you misread this verse and chapter is our Hellenized view of God and Platonic preference for a spirit-only God, but ancient Israel knew better.
Deuteronomy 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/4-28.htm
The God of Israel could see, hear, eat and smell.
I understand that for some people discussing challenging concepts is hard without labels. Ping me when you’re ready.
I cannot be in darkness, FRiend. I accept the witness of John the Baptist. John witnessed of the Light. Let’s not build our belief on just a single verse parsed to the convenience of our personal bias. Let’s not fall for Catholic error because it’s the consensus.
John 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1: 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Yet, we know that Moses saw God, spoke to him face to face as a man speaketh to a friend (that’s important, being God’s friend and having him as our friend). Moses even saw God’s rearward parts, but Israel did not? Why?
The Bible speaks plainly and clearly when we come to it willing to do the will of the Father, not our own will.
How can we discuss anything without names? You make no sense, or you are being disingenuous. In addition, you have used the label “Trinitarian heresy” to disparage our beliefs. So what label do you give yourself?
Also, you still have not told us how many gods are in your theology. This question is not a label, this question is to establish a statement of fact. Why do you not answer?
If you cannot express your “challenging concepts” without answering some basic questions, I am afraid there really is nothing to discuss here.
You are being purposely deceitful, so yes, you are in darkness still. Are you LDS now or in your past?
Lying for the Lord is not doing the will of 'the father' unless that father is the father of lies, a murderer from the start.
We are discussing the nature of God. If Heavenly Father is God and Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Ghost is God, then how many Gods is that?
You already know I’m a non-Trinitarian Christian. I’ve already demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that the dominant Christian dogma imposed by Catholicism isn’t supported by the Bible or that at the very least there is an alternative perspective founded strongly in the Bible.
Turning the discussion to be about me isn’t staying on topic. It’s a form of ad hominem attack and a type of running away. Stick to the Bible. Stick to the facts.
Let’s discuss.
You’ll have to demonstrate how I’ve used the Bible to be ‘purposely deceitful’ because I have not been. I’m glad to discuss any Biblical topic you’d like, including the Trinitarian error.
Christ is the cornerstone of the Church and the Church is built on the prophets and the apostles. I’ve demonstrated that the Christian Reform movement ignored the Bible in its reformation when it came to the Trinity. It’s a Catholic doctrine, imposed by Greek pagan thought and we shouldn’t accept it without strong Biblical proofs.
Come now, let us reason together... or not. Your choice.
My God is no liar and neither is my master, the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That I’ve exposed you to doctrines you do not like is indisputable. I’ve never lied. Your attempt to focus on me is a sign of weakness on the part of your beliefs and your arguments in favor of said beliefs. Stay on target. We are discussing what the Bible says about the nature of God.
You want to debate that heresy, well you and I have already done that years ago. (By the way, you never answered me or Elsie when we asked why god the holy spirit -#3 of the Mormonism pantheon- never got his body)
The Church is not an institution, and you are seeking to prove it is an institution, an institution which your false prophet, Joseph Smith, claims disappeared from the earth until he, Smith with a mushroom cision in the woods, re-established it for this impotent god of Mormonism.
The Church is The Bride of Christ, purchased with His blood, for the Life is in The Blood and ONLY His life will reside with God The Father ALmighty.
The Church reaches back across human History to all who will trust in His shed Blood for their Salvation. The Church is not the bride of Jim Caveazel, the movie version of Jesus -as efficacious for salvation as Brigham Young claimed Joe Smith was necessary for entry into Heaven.
The Church is made up of individuals from all races now and is not based upon the institution of the law and the Prophets of the Old Testament because we have a better Way, Truth, and Light, Jesus Christ, God with us. In This Way not a jot or tittle is done away with for they are all fulfilled in Him, through His blood of the New Covenant.
The Law and Prophets, as Paul tried to teach you, were given to point the Way to The Christ. When Jesus arose from the dead (as taught by the Apostles when asked what new non-Jews should do to be faithful) the abiding by law and prophets ended.
You claim to have knowledge of the Truth of The Bible, but you have only cursory familiarity with the truth which The Word of God declares, and you're doing all you can to twist even that!
I will conduct no further exchange with you. You are a deceiver, on purpose, and you have no authority to command me to 'stay on your rail'. May God have mercy upon you, take your Mormon doctrine false Christianity to another forum, you are exposed at FR for what you are, a deceiver lying for the lord of Mormonism.
That you can post scripture is not surprising, your father quoted scripture to Jesus. You are not enlightened, you are blinded by demonic light which twists scriptures to fit 'strange doctrines', yet you deceive readers by omission when you try to appear something other than what you are, an LDS doctrinaire.
Bye bye
By the way, you never answered me or Elsie when we asked why god the holy spirit -#3 of the Mormonism pantheon- never got his body
While you're at it, can you please explain why the Angel Moroni hasn't yet received exaltation, his body, his own planet, and his harem of goddess wives. Why is he only an angel? Is it because he is not worthy? Or is it because the King Follett Discourse (in one of its four forms) had not been revealed to Joseph at the time when Joseph and Oliver wrote the Book of Mormon? Or is there some other reason, perhaps?
I am not making an ad homimen attack, I’m asking where you have been taught what you have been taught, since I think it is relevant to the topic. I am not sure why you consider this as an attack.
Concerning the nature of God, you have stated that there are at least three. Are there more than three?
You keep focusing on the LDS and not the Bible. Stay on target. I’ve laid out my case as to why I do not believe the Trinity. I’ve shown in verse after verse that there is no reason to believe the Bible forms a foundation for the Trinity. Nor does it form a foundation for a god who is without body, parts or passion. The overwhelming evidence is against the Trinity and for a God who is like his Son, Jesus Christ.
Instead of carefully laying out your case, instead of showing me how the Hebrew or Greek is wrong or how dozens of translations into English are confused you attack Mormons. Your monomania against the LDS blinds you to the fact that the Bible sustains an enormous amount of LDS doctrine. That’s shocking.
We know that the early Christians were not monolithic, but dynamic. We can read this in each of the epistles as well as in Acts.
Could there be a non-Trinitarian God? Could God have a body?
Now I’ve laid out the case from the Bible. You don’t have to believe it, but you cannot state that the Bible doesn’t support these claims.
Not once have you shown how the Bible refutes Christ’s bodily resurrection and ascension into Heaven. You cannot refute that the OT God is simply ethereal when he himself states otherwise.
I suggest that the current ‘consensus’ view of the nature of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is wrong. Worse, it is misleading and confusing, the cause of heresies around the world. The Trinitarian view is not a doctrine of salvation. It creates a fundamental misunderstanding of Jesus Christ and the fullness of his glory.
That may make you uncomfortable, but the truth usually does. You’ve responded not with logic, reason or even compassion, but with fear and mockery. Stick to the Bible, FRiend.
The Bible, my dear kosciusko51. Although much of my research came directly from FR via the Religion Forum. All the disputations there made me very curious. I learned a lot about differing beliefs, particularly the Orthodox, Catholic, Mormon and Reform perspectives. All of which are very dynamic. For instance the WCF which you shared with me (I’d never read it as I recall) states that God is without passions, yet the Bible teaches that God has deep and sensitive feelings stating unambiguously that God is love.
I believe that there might be a broader understanding about God found in the Bible than is currently taught. For instance:
http://biblehub.com/concordance/g/godliness.htm
I would be delighted to discuss the nature of God, the Trinity, early church organization, the Creation and or the Resurrection with you. But only from the Bible, please.
A son of perdition likes to 'target' the Bible, twisting the scriptures to falsely show 'hidden knowledge' that somehow the cult can reveal when untold thousands of Christians over generations have missed it completely.
If anyone would like to wrestle with this 'expert' in the punchbowl, be my guest. I will not give it further consideration. *shaking the dust from my shoes*
Did you catch this little piece of up/down, prestidigitation? ... “Not once have you shown how the Bible refutes Christ’s bodily resurrection and ascension into Heaven.” As a Christian I write about the bodily resurrection where Jesus even left the burial wrappings without unraveling them, I wonder what the expert expected? LOL But it is not trying to deceive us!
What is your explanation?
Deuteronomy 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/4-28.htm
The God of Israel could see, hear, eat and smell.
That conclusion requires a leap of logic from here to the moon.
Cordially
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