Posted on 08/21/2014 8:25:04 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
Authorities release recordings of death that came amid extreme tension in nearby Ferguson over Michael Brown killing
Police is St. Louis Missouri have released video and audio recordings of the shooting on Tuesday of Kajieme Powell, a 25-year-old man described as "behaving erratically" and carrying a knife when officers arrived on the scene.
One video, taken by a witness with a phone camera, shows officers opening fire repeatedly within 15 seconds of arriving at the scene. 12 shots are fired in rapid succession.
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(Excerpt) Read more at theguardian.com ...
Problem is one loses fine motor control in such extreme-stress situations; that, plus everyone moving, makes it extremely hard to “shoot to wound” as a deliberate intentional action. Few are “more than capable of shooting to wound [as an assured outcome]”; those who are understand that it’s a stupid course of action under the circumstances warranting it.
If you’re shooting, it’s because someone is going to DIE if you don’t; your goal is to STOP the attack, which means striking either the largest target (torso) or something instantly incapacitating (head).
If your focus is on “shoot to wound”, then you don’t believe that lethal force is necessary, and you shouldn’t be shooting them at all. Shooting someone is using LETHAL force. “Shoot to wound” involves doing things which may very well kill someone. “Just shoot ‘em in the leg” - well, you hit the femoral artery and he’s dead from extreme & rapid blood loss. Don’t shoot someone if killing them is not an acceptable consequence.
In the Ferguson case, the cop wounded the perp FOUR TIMES - yet said perp kept coming to resume an already gravely harmful assault. “Shoot to wound” is wishful thinking by the naive: if you have the luxury of doing it, shooting at all is not warranted; it’s called “lethal force” for a reason, don’t be surprised if a “wounding” shot turns out lethal. The goal is to STOP the attack, which requires doing what may very well be lethal; if you’re trying to “wound”, then you don’t believe the threat is dangerous enough to warrant lethal force and thus are not justified in the action.
It’s not about “emotional thinking”. It’s about human limits of precision in combat, and about whether such dangerous actions are warranted. “Shoot to wound” means you believe you’re not in _that_ much danger; not good.
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- Remember the “BEAN BAG LOADS” The US Border Patrol was ordered to use?
- Just how did that crap work out against illegaL aliens?
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Hence the “Mozambique drill”. If two on CoM don’t work, head next.
To preserve their lives it's the best policy. In this case the guy showed a knife. How do they know that he doesn't have a gun in his waistband? So they shoot his leg...and the guy then draws his gun. He's already proven he's willing to stab.
If it is not a life or death situation, a shot should not be taken.
If it is life or death, the shot should have the highest likelihood of ending the confrontation, center mass, multiple hits.
Nobody is good enough to count on a disabling shot in the heat of battle. If there is a disabling shot, it was a mistake. If they hit a leg, they have missed their point of aim by a couple of feet. If they shoot at the leg with that kind of accuracy, they are going to miss and possibly die. We expect a lot from law enforcement, we shouldn’t expect them to die to appease your sense of moral outrage.
Looking at the shooting diagram, it looks like the officer missed his target 6 times, he was trained to hit center mass. Based on the outcome, he was not capable of making in intentional wounding shot.
The cop had backup within 20 feet. There was no need for him to pull his gun and fire so immediately.
Whoops, I was referring to the Ferguson shooting.
“Officer Darren Wilson had no problem doing this. At least four shots to the arm.”
Actually, that’s more likely the consequence of either having his left eye smashed in, or his trigger finger being mispositioned and forcing the barrel left when pulling.
Nobody’s mentioned “tunnel vision” in the whole Ferguson discussion. Odds are he didn’t even _see_ Brown’s legs: the brain tends to focus on what it considers the actual threat under such circumstances, discounting anything not immediately part of the threat - which in this case were the very strong hands & arms which had just cracked his skull.
Remember, he just had his skull fractured. This wasn’t a demonstration drill on a controlled range, it was a high-adrenaline action at a moving target while in fear for his life while severely injured.
There was another officer right behind him with his weapon pulled. The first guy should attempt non-leathal means, the backup should kill if it fails.
How fast could you transition from a bean-bag filled shotgun to a “live ammo” firearm? really?
The “Teuller Drill” demonstrates that few people can manage to draw & fire a pistol at an attacker starting at 21 feet distant.
Yep. Some folks suggest shifting aim down (to the hips) rather than up (to the head). Hips are larger and don't bob around as much.
I practice both ... I suppose which one to use is one of those quarter-second judgement calls that shouldn't be second-guessed.
You gonna trust your life to someone else 20 feet away? when you think someone else is gonna kill you?
Shooting the hips would be done to shatter the supporting bone. You’d better be sure he’s not gonna get to you with one more long step + reach + intent.
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- Sgt. Love says - “OK Devolve - Do you see that guy out there at the 200 range markers? Shoot him in the leg but do not kill him - OK?”
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Hey brother, how you been?
I remember when we got the latest ‘Tazer’ gadget. The first 5 times I tried to use mine it did not work. I got so disgusted with the thing and wanted to protect myself should anything happen that they questioned me when I didn’t use it, that I put in one of my reports (after another Tazer failure) “I have no confidence in this weapon, it has failed me for the 5th time.”
It all went down hill when they got rid of Jacks.
I do work that is a lot more dangerous for a lot less.
You shouldn't even try. If a police force chooses to have a bean bag option, then a shotgun (perhaps in the trunk) would have to be dedicated for just that purpose.
As I mentioned earlier, I can envision situations where a bean bag shotgun would be quite useful. But no way should a single cop answer a knife call holding a bean bag shotgun.
Perhaps protocol in such a situation should be this: if multiple cops are on scene, one should be armed with a bean bag shotgun. That of course would not apply if the perp is suspected to have a firearm.
And just to be clear, I'm not advocating one or the other, or contradicting the general understanding that the third shot goes to the head. I'm suggesting that the hip shot shouldn't be ignored or forgotten.
Interesting thought.....case law and natural law don’t require attempting less lethal when facing a legitimate threat of death or serious bodily injury.
So you are saying you would want me to take a greater risk to my life than the law says I must.....I won’t do that.
As a person who has had a knife pulled on them at arms length...more than once...its very scary and having seen teasers fail at arms length several times I won’t be risking my life on that chance.
I will point out again...look how closely the dead crazy man falls to the police officer....at his feet is where he ends up.
There was zero margin for error in that incident. That officern is extremely luckiest to have not been stabbed or sliced up.
You and others are proposing best practices under best circumstances an overlaying them on rapidly evolving real world incidents.
Their are three people in that relationship...two officers and one crazy man who wanted to die.
I would be asking more questions of the dead man’s family and close friends how THEY failed before I would be blaming the police.
That crazy man was playing out a fantasy in real life....he set the cans down and set the stage for his passion play.
Early in the video, perp has one hand positioned like he’s holding something in earnest but trying to hide it, presumably the knife.
At the moment of shooting, he has both hands out - we can’t see, but can reasonably presume he’s displaying the knife at that point. He is well within the “Teuller Drill” 21-foot range, the point where he can KILL that cop before the cop can react enough to stop him. There was nothing in the way, he was moving toward the gun-drawn cop with apparent intent (or at least absolutely not dissuaded by two cops pointing guns at him, a sign of intent/aggression).
This is absolutely a textbook case of when to shoot someone with a knife. I’ve had the training, was subjected to a very realistic simulation of a case VERY close to that, and having failed (akin to doing what you’re arguing for) to do the right thing in that situation still bothers me even though it was just a simulation some 17 years ago.
Consider: if the perp WAS intending to kill the cop with that knife, and considering exactly what he was doing the moment he was shot (walking rapidly toward the cop, no obstacles ahead, knife in hand ready for use) how long would it have taken him to reach the cop and cut? 1-2 seconds max.
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