Posted on 06/08/2014 9:06:40 AM PDT by tom h
I don’t think D Day happens anything like it happened….I don’t necessarily think Normandy would have been in play. Our strategy would have been far different from the get go.
As it was, it took some mistakes by Rommel and Hitler to allow D Day to work. Had they had all those other resources, it just simply could not have happened.
And then who knows what Stalin might have done. He would almost certainly have captured Japan.
Mussolini lost the war for Hitler, he lost valuable time in launching Barbarossa in order to bail out the Italians in the Balkans.
If not for Fat Man and Little Boy, most like Japan would have been divided, like Korea and Germany.
The fascination with “Alt.Hist” is to play the game of “what if!” To my mind, there was nothing that could save The Axis or give it victory following the declarations of war from Pearl Harbor. The USofA had such total manufacturing, resources and financial dominance as to be unstoppable once engaged.
Where there was a real cusp was probably Hitler’s decision to start the hot war with the Polish Invasion. Most of the military and particularly the German Navy was still ramping-up. A delay of 3 years could have meant a starved Great Britain even without an invasion. If you have that, maybe Spain joins the Axis and closes the Med and you have a real communication and logistics problem.
Yet there were always counter currents in play. Hitler became convinced of Soviet weakness following the Purge Trials and by his own prejudices. His success at the Sudetenland gave him thought that he could get away with another chomp in Poland, especially since it was as a PARTNER with Soviet Russia, which brought him that much closer to Russia and Balkan Oil!
Things we tend to forget is how brittle expansive dictatorships can be. Nazi Germany was mobilized and had an enormous economic problem with so many men in the military yet not on a total war footing. IIRC, Germany did not go for full woman employment (full mobilization) until around 1942-3! This causes inflation and with the epic examples from the Weimar Republic, there may not have been a comfort zone for waiting another 2-3 years for best conditions. Also, waiting does give that time to your enemies as well.
Just my $0.02 worth!
It was also Stalin's decision. Hitler could not invade Poland without Stalin's assurances. Stalin knew it would mean war in the West, which was in his best interests, since he figured it would result in the Armies of Britain, France and Germany bleeding themselves dry, thus making it easy for the Soviets to swoop in from the East and take the whole continent.
Only one problem, France went down without a fight. Which in the end, was a blessing in disguise.
leads to this: http://www.americanheritage.com/content/big-leak?page=8
Starts: http://www.americanheritage.com/content/big-leak?page=1
Spiritual lessons:
Hitler was infected with the Victim Entitlement of the devil, the very same thing Communism appealed to.
Seeing himself unfairly treated by not having the worship and power of his Creator, who alone is worthy of it, the devil determined in his infamous "I will" assertions,
"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:" "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." (Isaiah 14:13-14)
This was the original "occupy" and "share the wealth" movement.
However, the devil was not worthy of such (overcoming saints will be rewarded by sitting with Christ in His throne, Rv. 3:21, though they really deserve Hell apart from Christ and God's grace) nor all-mighty, and thus the Lord pronounced,
"Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;" (Isaiah 14:15-16)
It gets worse, but meanwhile the Lord uses the devil to provide a choice for man, btwn light and darkness, for of what use is choice unless there is that to choose btwn, and which manifest what a soul really wants.
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" (Deuteronomy 30:19)
The next event thus is that of the devil telling Eve that she also is a victim, as her Creator did not "share the wealth" with her, that knowledge it was best for her not to have, but the devil worked to convey that God was being selfish and malevolent (thus atheists today charge the same), and therefore Eve should by disobedience gain what should have been hers. But what she gained was to her loss, and Adam went along with it as a sheep.
Communism also appealed to the victim mentality, and which often has some truth to it in some injustice, but when one focuses on it, not handling it with grace and objective thankfulness, but becomes resentful and jealous, then the result is not principled dissent, but wounded and vengeful spirits that are easily seduced by those who present themselves as their saviors but who are devil in disguise, which end up making the "victims" worse off in real terms than they were before, whether it be cults, Communism, or Democrats.
Back to pagan Hitler, seething with resentment which needed a target, then it became the Jews, and nations that oppressed a militaristic Germany, and infected that nation with the same. This translated into lust for power, to subdue all under him, for this is how the devil works to see his will be done, and his kingdom come.
To the damnation of all who hear and heed him and are deceived thereby.
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
The war would have dragged on much longer and it would have been bloody beyond imagination. Once we developed the atomic bomb Berlin would have went up as radioactive ashes and dust. Repeat as necessary.
If Hitler thought a Russian attack was likely, then might not the supposed inevitability of war with Russia suggest to him that he might as well get in the first strike and attempt to defeat Russia before it mobilized fully?
All indications were that by 1943-1944, Stalin was prepared to launch an offensive attack. That’s why he was so desperate to buy as much time as he could and not try to do anything to provoke the Germans.
Never heard about this. What were Hitler's health issues?
The Wehrmacht was an offensive military force. Its successes relied on blitzkrieg (lightning war surprise attacks with overwhelming numerical superiority) and deep thrusts by Panzergruppen. They were ill prepared for a prolonged siege OR a defensive standoff.
Additionally, both the Germans and the Soviets used a scorched earth policy during the initial drive on Moscow. Unless they retreated to pre-Barbarossa lines, there wasn’t anywhere the Germans COULD establish fortifications and hope to have adequate means to feed and resupply their armies.
Finally, Defensive or offensive operations would not have mattered. German was running out of oil. Rommel couldn’t let his tanks romp in Africa because of oil rationing. The Luftwaffe was essentially grounded by the time of the Normandy invasion because of the oil shortage. The whole point of Operation Barbarossa was SUPPOSED to be seizure of the Caucasus oil fields. Hitler changed the plan on the eve of the attack to send the brunt of his forces against Moscow and Leningrad.
“...Admiral Rader advocated that Germany seize Gibraltar, the Med and North Africa, and Egypt, then extend their forces down the east coast of Africa and interdict the flows of Mid East oil and Allied supplies to Russia, and sever England’s lines of communication with India.”
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An excellent point, and the Admiral wasn’t so far off the mark. Of course, the problem was that Hitler and Army generals could never quite grasp the ‘big picture’; German military thinking was, and had been for centuries, confined to land warfare against their neighboring countries. Therefore when Raeder presented his tours d’horizon, the reaction of Hitler and the Army staff would likely have been something like, “Huh?”
Well, a lot of Hitlers health issues started with the loss at Stalingrad. He might not have been in such poor health without that….just another potential game changer related to this hypothetical.
Hitler became a junkie in the last few years.
Which is why the eastern campaign was doomed regardless……especially with all the resources being poured into the "Final Solution."
The war would have dragged on much longer and it would have been bloody beyond imagination. Once we developed the atomic bomb Berlin would have went up as radioactive ashes and dust. Repeat as necessary.
Yes, and the depression he was thrown into by Stalingrad was a big piece of that puzzle.
He was not a picture of health ever, but Stalingrad probably shortened his span of at least servicable health. It was way way downhill for him after that…FAST.
Moreover, in WW II, Germany seemed to assume that Russia could be beaten again as it had been in the First World War. Rader's more wide ranging proposal must have seemed more a distraction than a credible alternative.
“Had his fighter jet had another 1-2 years of competitive warfare...”
Except all of that stuff needed fuel - which Germany was running out of due to our bombing of their facilities, and them having no access to natural resources.
I recall my history teacher saying how they used mules to move the jets around on the ground to save fuel!
My uncle was in the underground in Norway. My dad asked him once about it and he said “The Nazi’s will always be around, and I will never tell anyone, for fear of my children and grandchildren.” Of course hearing this as a kid I always imagined him being the one to blow up the heavy-water plant!
Perhaps that’s the crux of the problem with the Nazis.
Their war was against the Jew. They wanted Poland and Russia, because of the high number of Jews in those countries, they wanted to exterminate them all, and this idea permeated their military strategy.
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