Posted on 08/30/2010 6:33:31 AM PDT by Jenny Hatch
Visalia, Calif. • A Mormon church official was shot dead between services on Sunday, and less than an hour later, the man suspected of the crime also died after a shootout with police.
Clay Sannar, 42, a lay bishop with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Visalia, southeast of Fresno, died after being shot in his office, said Visalia police chief Colleen Mestas.
Soon after the first shooting, a caller identified himself to police as the shooter. Police responded, and there was a confrontation with several shots exchanged, said Mestas.
The suspect was hit multiple times. He was taken to nearby Kaweah Delta Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead. He has not been identified yet. No officers were injured, Mestas said.
Tulare County sheriff’s deputies are taking over the investigation of the shootout involving the police officers. The sheriff’s department did not immediately return calls for comment.
Visalia police continue to investigate Sannar’s shooting, but have not identified a motive.
(Excerpt) Read more at sltrib.com ...
You have misquoted the brother. He said his brother “believed” he had been shunned to hell. Neither the brother nor the man’s father is blaming the victim, no matter how much you try to twist their words.
That you think it is funny gives great insight into your character, or lack there of.
Why don't you quit before you really embarrass yourself further...
On second thought, keep going...
8/30/10.
That you think it is funny gives great insight into your character, or lack there of.
Why don't you quit before you really embarrass yourself further...
On second thought, keep going...
8/30/10.
Colofornian nailed it, chapter and verse in this post.
#1, Right off the bat, Beck provides the Mormon narrative -- but in a broad enough way where what he said could also be references to how we treated slaves and Native Americans in our early country's history.
At the 2:18 mark, Beck says: "For too long this country has wandered in darkness and we have wandered in darkness in periods from the beginning."
Somebody needs to ask Beck point blank what "darkness" he was talking about right "from the beginning" of this country:
Hey, Glenn: Were you talking about slavery?
Our treatment of Native Americans?
The so-called "lost gospel" of Christianity til 1830? (All three?)
You see, per Mormonism, whatever light was emerging in the 1770s was a mere "set-up" so that over 50 years later Smith could proclaim his "restored gospel." (IOW the primary purpose American freedom served was so that Smith could proclaim his version of the gospel)
The phrase Mormons and Mormon Missionaries use to describe this supposed complete darkness from the 1770s to the 1820s was a "universal apostasy." Until 1830, says Mormons, the darkness of Christian apostasy was the supposed order of the day.
Glenn Beck three minutes into his speech:
At the 3:00 to 3:05 mark, where were the alarms going off in minds engaged in critical thinking when Beck jumped off his Mormon diving board?
Note several things as you read the following: What Beck says next applies to B.C. times (not A.D. Mayflower days, although yes, he then references the pilgrims). And, yes, although Christians interpret themselves to also be God's "chosen" people, Beck uses the term "chosen people" to reference the Jews. B.C. Jews.
Beck: "5,000 years ago, on the other side of the planet, God's chosen people were led out of bondage by a guy with a stick who was talking to a burning bush. Man first began to recognize God & God's law. The chosen people listened to the Lord."
With Beck's very next sentences comes the Mormon narrative: "At the same time those things were happening on THIS side. On THIS land. Another group of people were gathered here, and they, too, were listening to God. How these two people were brought together again happened because people were listening to God."
OK, quiz, class. What two groups of people was Beck referencing in this speech BEFORE he moved on to later history and the pilgrims?
(a) God's chosen people in the East -- those who followed Moses and God's Law.
(b) Native Americans
And per Beck, did these two groups come together? Beck: "How these two people were brought together again happened because people were listening to God."
Now class, what source teaches this? That the Jews & Native Americans came together to listen to God's Word in B.C. Americas? That's right. If you're usin' your critical thinking skills -- The Book of Mormon.
Just to emphasize, so that you don't get confused when Beck fast-forwarded to talking about the pilgrims: What two other dynamics did "Professorial Chalkboard" Beck describe at the rally in his version of "history":
(1) It was the "same time" (same B.C. era) as Moses and those he led. [That rules out the Mayflower gang]
(2) Whatever was happening in the Middle East -- people listening to God in B.C. times, per Beck & per Mormonism it was also happening "on THIS side." (The word "This" was Beck's emphasis)
Guess what document teaches that? That's right. Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon. B.C. times. The Americas.
The article actually misquotes the brother. The earliest articles said that he “believed he had been shunned to hell.” Our church does not practice “shunning.” Even those who are excommunicated can attend church. I know a few who have done it, and been rebaptized. And, we don’t believe that the promiscuity for which he was apparently excommunicated years ago would condemn him to “hell.” It takes much more than that to go to actual “hell.” So, he cooked up this belief pretty much on his own, when he was off his meds.
LOL...the brother believed he was shunned. And as a former mormon, I have seen such shunning by mormon congregations.
Try another straw man to take the spotlight off your accusation of FReepers condoning murder, this one doesn't work.
It looks like the attention Glenn has brought to the mormon church hasn't all been positive nationwide from the reaction of you and other mormons on FR. It always seems to come as a surprise to mormons to find out the whole world isn't fooled by the facade of holiness presented by your PR team. Then, of course, we have glaring examples like you showing your true nature here.
>>Is there any post there that advocates assaulting or murdering a mormon? Any? Just one? <<
Where did I say that? Why don’t you post it here.
What magritte said was this
“Is Glenn Beck, a Mormon, more or less Christian than Obama?”
Sounds like the FR Religion Forum these days...magritte”
>>So, “while you dance around” attempting to silence the opposition to mormonISM here on FR, those who want to see us silenced are sitting back watching supposed conservatives advocate censorship because they don’t like the subject material.<<
I don’t really give a crap if someone debates dogma on the Religion forum, cause I don’t have to go there. I’m not seeing a dogma debate from the Mormons here. I do care that some FReepers pick up the garbage spewed by the MSM then scream censorship. How “library porn fan” can one get?
Maybe, instead of screaming censorship, one should be silent and not look like a fool, because this is my conclusion...
“We all need to think before we post.”
There is no formal “shunning,” and you know it. If by “shunning,” you mean that people usually avoid those who are hostile to their most sacred beliefs, then, I would agree with you.
CONDONDING?
Try COMMITTING!
That was LLs accusation, plain and clear...
Hmmm. I wonder what his FR screen name was.
72 posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 1:30:20 PM by lady lawyer
8/30/10.
We win.
LOL..keep digging...you are admitting that this whole shooting incident was personal, and not an act against mormonism in general.
As to the shunning, your claim that your "church" does not practice it but there are many who have experienced it from the members...in fact, there are those non-mormons who live in Utah who will tell you of their children not being allowed to play with mormons.
Mormon Lawyer, double whammy...
I can remember an incident like the one you describe. A woman on the next block, who I had really liked, began an affair with a co-worker, decided the Mormon church wasn’t true, walked out on her faithful husband, breaking his heart, convinced two of her four children to leave the husband and the church with her, and began going around the ward to people whom she considered vulnerable, trying to talk them into leaving the church, too. She couldn’t just leave. She had to try to convince as many people as possible that she was right, and they were stupid to stay. I couldn’t look her in the face. I didn’t know what to say to her. She probably thought I was jerk, too. Oh, well.
As I said, people tend to avoid those who are hostile to everything that they hold sacred. I make no apologies for that.
And, as for this incident being “personal,” the shooter did not know the bishop he shot. He was content to kill any Mormon bishop.
Keep digging.
“7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?”
Formal enough for you?
Oh btw, yours was a most enlightening comment (”Wonder what his FR name was.”) Thanks for showing your colors.
The really strange thing is this...Christians don't feel personally affronted when someone chooses to follow a different path and leave their individual congregation. "As I said, people tend to avoid those who are hostile to everything that they hold sacred. I make no apologies for that."
What possible harm does someone who is "hostile" to mormonism as a belief do to you personally?
This "hostility" to those who leave is the mark of a cult.
ouch...
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