Posted on 05/27/2009 1:01:05 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
John Calvin was a Frenchman, but he is being remembered in Geneva this week because it was here that he built Calvinism. Invited to reform the city in 1541, almost as what would now be called a management consultant, he formed an alliance with the city fathers. Over the next 20 years of preaching and pastoring they turned this tiny city, with a population then of only 10,000, into a model of church government and theology which has changed the world.
His followers now form the third-largest Christian grouping in the world. The world alliance of reformed churches claims 75 million members, and while this is a lower headline figure than the Anglican Communion's 80 million, it is not inflated by 25 million nominal Anglicans in Britain.
Although Calvinism is shrinking in western Europe and North America, it is experiencing an extraordinary success in China. I spent some time on Monday talking to the Rev May Tan, from Singapore, where the overseas Chinese community has close links with mainland China. The story she told of the spread of Calvinist religion as an elite religion in China was quite extraordinary. There may be some parallels with the growth of Calvinism in South Korea, where the biggest presbyterian churches in the world are to be found, but it's absolutely unlike the pattern in Africa and Latin America. There, the fastest growing forms of Christianity are pentecostal, and they are spreading among the poor.
But in China neither of those things are to be true.
Calvinists despise pentecostalists. They shudder at unbridled emotion. If they are slain in the spirit, it is with a single, decorous thump: there's to be no rolling afterwards. And in China, the place where Calvinism is spreading fastest is the elite universities, fuelled
(Excerpt) Read more at guardian.co.uk ...
....Many of the missionaries who tried to bring Christianity to China before the communists took over were presbyterians, and other sorts of Calvinist. But that does not explain why Calvinism should be the preferred theology of the house churches and the intellectuals now. Dr Tan suggests that this is because it is Protestant: that is to say it can be made much more convincingly native than Roman Catholicism, since presbyterian congregations choose their own pastors. This is, I suspect, enormously important at a time when China is recovering from a century and a half of being the victim of western powers; the pope's insistence on appointing Catholic bishops is unacceptable to the government and perhaps to the people too....
....Calvinism isn't a religion of subservience to any government. The great national myths of Calvinist cultures are all of wars against imperialist oppressors: the Dutch against the Spanish, the Scots against the English; the Americans against the British. So when the Chinese house churches first emerged from the rubble of the Cultural Revolution in the 80s and 90s "They began to search what theology will support and inform [them]. They read Luther and said, 'not him'. So they read Calvin, and they said 'him, because he has a theology of resistance.' Luther can't teach them or inform them how to deal with a government that is opposition."
T-Total Depravity - Sin's Effect upon Mankind
U-Unconditional Election - God's Election on Spiritually Dead Mankind
L-Limited Attonment - Christ's Attonment for the Sin's of His People.
I-Irresistable Grace - God's wooing his people to Himself.
P-Perseverance of the Saints - The Saints will persevere
This was the Council of Dort's reaction to a document "The Remonstances" by the followers of Armenius. It has since been called Calvanism.
By the way, we Calvanists do not despise Pentacostals or any other part of the body of Christ. We differ on points of scripture and are glad to discuss the scriptures with them as with anyone else who has ears to hear.
I grew up Calvanist. I still have a hard time with all this emotional stuff I see in Church sometimes. People begging for prayer, men giving man hugs to eachother, crying, that kind of occasional stuff, I have problems with.
Good thing, too, I'd never be able to talk to most of my family.
Yup, the Bible is still putting that predestination argument out there.
Fair enough. Calvinism is a non-essential to the faith -- it's essentially a family disagreement. It doesn't need to cause a family split, as unfortunately happens so often.
If I'm 100% right and you're 100% wrong, we'll still both be in Heaven. If you're right and I'm wrong, we'll still both be in Heaven.
Gentleman’s answer, but consider...if a person disavows predestination because he believes that he, and he alone, decides where he will spend eternity, an enormous statement has just been made about Who he believes God is. He is also stating a lot about how to understand the Scriptures. Finally, he is teaching much about how salvation works and who may, or may not, be saved.
Slight alteration: If you are 100% right, Harry may still be in heaven and you may not be. Or, you may be and Harry may not be. Or, you both may be.
If Harry is 100% right, Harry will be in heaven, and you may not be. Or, you both may be.
But, if you are right, Harry is teaching that people control their own destiny...hardly a “a family disagreement.”
Calvinists despise pentecostalists.
Rev. Daniel Hyde, "The Pentecost Church in an Age of Pentecostalism: What is the Role of the Holy Spirit in Reformed Churches?". An hour or so of audio, well worth listening to.
And, Calvin's reply to Cardinal Sadoleto:
"We are assailed by two sects, which seem to differ most widely from each other. For what similitude is there in appearance between the Pope and the Anabaptists? And yet, that you may see that Satan never transforms himself so cunningly, as not in some measure to betray himself, the principal weapon with which they both assail us is the same. For when they boast extravagantly of the Spirit, the tendency certainly is to sink and bury the Word of God, that they may make room for their own falsehoods. ...Learn, then, by your own experience, that it is no less unreasonable to boast of the Spirit without the Word, than it would be absurd to bring forward the Word itself without the Spirit. "
I agree to a point. I am a pretty reserved person, and the same people I see waving their arms and going up front to the Alter calls are the same people that do it over and over again every week. Rarely do other people do it. I know many of these people well and they are commited Chritians in thoughts, words, and actions, they are also more emotional than me. Over the top stuff would and does turn my stomach, but I haven’t seen that at my Church thankfully.
Perhaps they like Calvinism because, unlike so many other Christian views, there is something to read besides a tract. ;O)
If a person avows predestination because they believe they have no control on their destiny, Jesus’ ministry becomes a charade. And responsibility only a word.
Very good answer. God has taken the time and trouble to revealed Himself to us through His scriptures. How we understand God and who He is significantly affects our relationship and our salvation. There were some who thought they were doing the "right things" for God yet our Lord Jesus said, "I never knew you..". There were other false prophets who believed they were talking for God and yet never were. And then there were great men of faith like Joshua who was plainly told that he had a poor understanding of God in which he repented. (Jos 5:13-15)
God requires us to have a right understanding of Himself and He has given us His Spirit to lead us to all truth. Our failings of obtaining this right understanding is due to the hardness of our hearts, nothing else. To disagree is simply to water down God's message. Rather we should be sharpening one another.
If a person disavows predestination, they deny the Scriptures. Responsibility is what God wants it to be, not what our arrogance demands.
Jesus’ ministry was intended to teach the Jews that in spite of what they thought about righteousness, they would not, could not do it. Read through the so-called Sermon on the Mount. Encyclopedic interpretation has long taken this to be “a lesson in Christian living”. Nothing could be further from the truth. He was thwarting their sense of self-produced holiness.
Eventually, even the disciples would cry out, “Then who can be saved?” Aaahhh. What is impossible with man is possible with God.
You and I are responsible, alright. It is just that we cannot escape the condemnation of that responsibility unless He decides to blow life into our toe-tag dead souls.
Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
1 Corinthians 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
Yep, definitely a biblical word. Yes, we believe God predestined according to His own Soveriegn Will. Non-Predestinators do not believe Revelation 5:9 "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.".
Oh? Is that it? That's all of his ministry in your view?
You and I are responsible, alright
For what? What do we have any choice in?
If a person disavows predestination, they deny the Scriptures.
In your interpretation. It requires your choice of that interpretation. Predestination is shown false by you everyday. Right now. Unless you think your choices and reality is just an illusion.
I must respectfully disagree, my FRiend. How we understand God will certainly affect our relationship with Him, but can never affect our salvation. Our salvation is of God.
The point I was making was simply this: Plenty of people who don't believe in election are of the elect. Reformed theology revolves around the mechanics of our salvation - the exact means by which God saves us. Now, don't get me wrong, that's very important as it solves any number of thorny issues and certainly makes our relationship with the Almighty much easier -- but it's not required to believe in Calvinism to be of the elect. In fact, none of us believe in *anything* other than ourselves when God chooses us.
The thief on the cross was likely not a five-point Calvinist like you and I are. However, he's my brother in Christ all the same. That's what I meant when I call it a family disagreement.
Ask it this way: if you wanted someone to pray with you about some issue, and your only choices were a Buddhist, a Muslim, an atheist, and a Pentecostal, who would you pick? I'm certainly going with the Pentecostal. Even if we disagree about the specifics of our theology, they're still our brothers in Christ.
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