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On Plato, the Early Church, and Modern Science: An Eclectic Meditation
November 30, 2004 | Jean F. Drew

Posted on 11/30/2004 6:21:11 PM PST by betty boop

On Plato, the Early Church, and Modern Science: An Eclectic Meditation
By Jean F. Drew

God, purposing to make the universe most nearly like the every way perfect and fairest of intelligible beings, created one visible living being, containing within itself all living beings of the same natural order.

Thus does Plato (d. 347 B.C.) succinctly describe how all that exists is ultimately a single, living organism. At Timaeus20, he goes on to say:

“There exists: first, the unchanging form, uncreated and indestructible, admitting no modification and entering no combination … second, that which bears the same name as the form and resembles it … and third, space which is eternal and indestructible, which provides a position for everything that comes to be.”

And thus we find a description of the universe in which Being and Existence (Becoming) — the one God and the multiplicity of things — are bound together as a single living reality whose extension is mediated by Space (which for us moderns implies Time).

Our aim in this essay is to define these ideas and their relationships, and trace their historical development from the ancient world to the present. Taking a page from the late Eric Voegelin (1901–1985, philosopher of history specializing in the evolution of symbolization), we will follow a history-of-ideas approach to these issues. Along the way we will find that not only philosophy and cosmology, but also theology and even modern science can illuminate these seminal conceptions of Platonic thought. We must begin at the beginning, that is, with God — who is absolute Being in Plato’s speculation, of whom the cosmos itself is but the image (eikon) or reflection.

When Plato speaks of God (or when Aristotle does for that matter, as in e.g., Nicomachean Ethics), he is not referring to the Olympian gods, to Zeus, Hera, Athena, Poseidon, and the rest of the gang of “immortals.” For the Olympians are like man in that they are creatures of a creating God. Not only that, but they are a second generation of gods, the first having reigned in the antediluvian Age of Chronos; which is to say that the Olympians’ rule or law is not everlasting, but contingent. Thus they are not self-subsistent, but dependent (contingent) on a principle outside of themselves. We might say that the central difference between Plato’s God and the Olympians consists in the fact that the latter are “intracosmic” gods, and the former is “extracosmic,” that is, transcending all categories and conditions of space-time reality. In contrast, the intracosmic gods are subject to change, to contingency; and so, though they may truly be said to exist in some fashion, cannot be said to possess true Being. (More on these distinctions in a minute.)

It is clear that for Plato, God is the “Beyond” of the universe, or in other words, utterly transcendent, perfectly self-subsistent Being, the “uncaused cause” of all the multiplicity of existents in the universe. In yet other words we can say that, for Plato, the cosmos is a theophany, a manifestation or “presence” of the divine Idea — in Christian parlance, the Logos if I might draw that association — in the natural world.

As Wolfgang Smith notes, “Christian teaching is based upon the doctrine of the Logos, the Word of God, a term which in itself clearly suggests the idea of theophany. Moreover, what is implicit in the famous Prologue of St. John [“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” (John 1:1–5)] is openly affirmed by St. Paul when he declares that “the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world have been clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His power and Godhead” (Rom. 1:20) … The indisputable fact is that at its deepest level Christianity perceives the cosmos as a self-revelation of God.” [Wolfgang Smith, Cosmos and Transcendence, 1984]

Being and Existence (Becoming)
Being is a concept so difficult that it comes close to eluding our grasp altogether. It is utterly beyond space and time; imperishable; entirely self-subsistent, needing nothing from outside itself in order to be complete; essential; immutable; and eternally perduring. Contrast this with the concept of existence, regarding which Plato asks “how can that which is never in the same state be anything?” And this is the clue to the profound difference between being and existence: The existing things of this world are mutable and transient.

We must in my opinion begin by distinguishing between that which always is and never becomes from that which is always becoming but never is. The one is apprehensible by intelligence with the aid of reasoning, being eternally the same, the other is the object of opinion and irrational sensation, coming to be and ceasing to be, but never fully real. In addition, everything that becomes or changes must do so owing to some cause; for nothing can come to be without a cause. [Timaeus, 3:28]

Smith writes of the existing or “becoming” things that

“… they come upon the scene, we know not from whence; they grow, change, and decay; and at last they disappear, to be seen no more. The physical cosmos itself, we are told, is a case in point: it, too, has made its appearance, perhaps some twenty billion years ago, and will eventually cease to exist [i.e., finally succumbing, we are told, to thermodynamic entropy or “heat death”]. What is more, even now, at this very moment, all things are passing away. ‘Dead is the man of yesterday,’ wrote Plutarch, ‘for he dies into the man of today: and the man of today is dying into the man of tomorrow.’ Indeed, ‘to be in time’ is a sure symptom of mortality. It is indicative, not of being, but of becoming, of ceaseless flux.”

All the multiplicity of existents in the universe are in a state of becoming and passing away. But Plato’s great insight is that all things in the state of becoming — that is, all existing things — are whatever they are because they are participations in Being. That is to say, “we perceive the trace of being in all that exists,” writes Smith, “and that is why we say, with reference to any particular thing, that it is.” Existence, in other words, is contingent on Being.

But we wonder: In what way is this possible? And if existents participate in being, what is that Being in which they participate?

In Exodus 3:14 Moses has experienced a theophany: While tending his flock on Mount Horeb, suddenly he hears the voice of God issuing from a burning bush: God is speaking to him! Reverentially, Moses inquires of God what is His name (meaning: what is His nature or character).

And God said unto Moses, I AM WHO AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

God has told Moses: that He is Being (“I AM”). And the strong implication is that there is no “other” being: “I alone AM.” For “I” is plainly singular in form.

Smith draws the crucial point, “God alone IS. But how are we to understand this? ‘It seems to me,’ writes St. Gregory of Nyssa, ‘that at the time the great Moses was instructed in the theophany he came to know that none of those things which are apprehended by sense perception and contemplated by the understanding really subsist, but that the transcendent essence and cause of the universe, on which everything depends, alone subsists.’ But why? Does not the world exist? Are there not myriads of stars and galaxies and particles of dust, each existing in its own right? And yet we are told that the transcendent essence alone subsists. ‘For even if the understanding looks upon any other existing things,’ the great theologian goes on to say, ‘reason observes in absolutely none of them the self-sufficiency by which they could exist without participating in true Being. On the other hand, that which is always the same, neither increasing nor diminishing, immutable to all change whether to better or to worse (for it is far removed from the inferior and has no superior), standing in need of nothing else, alone desirable, participated in by all but not lessened by their participation — this is truly real Being.’”

Smith continues: “In the words of St. Gregory, ‘that which is always the same, neither increasing nor diminishing, immutable to all change … is truly real being.’ As concerns ‘existing things,’ on the other hand, the teaching implies that these entities are always changing, always in a state of flux, so that their very existence is in a way a process of becoming, in which however nothing is actually produced. This has been said time and again, beginning with Heraclitus and the Buddhist philosophers. And there can be little doubt that it is true: even modern physics, as we can see, points to the same conclusion. Only there is another side to the coin which is not always recognized. Existent things — the very flux itself — presuppose what Gregory and the Platonists have termed ‘a participation in Being.’ The point is that relative or contingent existences cannot stand alone. They have not an independent existence, a being of their own. ‘In Him we live, and move, and have our being,’ says St. Paul….”

St. Augustine confirms the Platonic insight this way:

I beheld these others beneath Thee, and saw that they neither altogether are, nor altogether are not. An existence they have, because they are from Thee; and yet no existence, because they are not what Thou art. For only that really is, that remains unchangeably.

Space
Space is the third essential term of the Platonic cosmology: It is the matrix in which living things and all other existents participate in Being. Plato’s creation myth — the Myth of the Demiurge in Timaeus — elucidates the Platonic conception of Space.

For Plato, the God of the Beyond is so “beyond” that, when it came time for creating the Cosmos, he didn’t even do it himself. He sent an agent: the Demiurge, a mythical being endued by God to be in divine likeness of God’s own perfect love, truth, beauty, justice, and goodness. The embodiment of divine perfections, the Demiurge wishes to create creatures just as good and beautiful as himself, according to the standard of the divine Idea — a direct analog, it seems to me, of the Logos theory of the ancient Church. Indeed, Eric Voegelin sees in the Demiurge the symbol of Incarnation [Order and History Vol. 3: Plato and Aristotle, 1957]:

“The Demiurge is the symbol of Incarnation, understood not as the result of the process but as the process itself, as the permanent tension in reality between the taxis of form or idea and the ataxia of formlessness.”

Similarly to the Christian account, the Demiurge in a certain way creates ex nihilo — that is, out of Nothing. At first glance, Plato is seen specifying, not a pre-existing “material” but a universal field of pure possibility called Chora, “Space.” Perhaps we may find in this concept a strong analogy to Isaac Newton’s concept of Absolute Space (see below).

Chora seems to indicate the idea of an eternal, universal field of pure stochastic potentiality that needs to become “activated” in order to bring actual beings into existence. In itself, it is No-thing, i.e., “nothing.” This “activation” the Demiurge may not effect by fiat: He does not, for instance, “command” to “Let there be Light!” The main tool at his disposal is Peitho, “persuasion.”

And if Chora is not so persuaded, it will remain in a state of “nothingness.” It will remain unformed, in the condition of ataxia. Of itself it is “Nothing”; by itself, it can do nothing. It cannot generate anything out of itself, not even matter in primaeval form.

And thus Plato introduces the figure of the Demiurge into his creation myth, symbolizing form or idea — the principle of (formative) taxia that draws (formless) ataxia into existence. We moderns might be tempted to describe the Demiurge as constituting an “information set” together with an “energy source,” who “persuades” the pure stochastic potentiality of formless, absolute, empty space into actualized form, and thus existence. From the cosmic standpoint, he makes unity out of multiplicity, in harmony and geometrical proportion:

“The best bond is the one that effects the closest unity between itself and the terms it is combining; and this is best done by a continued geometrical proportion.” [Timaeus, 4]

Thus the Demiurge is a kind of “divine geometer,” producing the forms (or mathematical ideas) that Chora can be persuaded to conform to, and thus come into existence.

But the Demiurge does more than just get things started: As bearer of the divine Idea — as pure love and beauty and goodness and truth — he continues always persuading Chora to generate creatures as like himself as possible (i.e., reflecting his own divine qualities at whatever generic stage), throughout all eternity. Thus creation is a continuous process in space-time. Moreover, it is the source and driver of evolution as a universal natural process.

Through the ongoing activity of the Demiurge, men and the world are constantly being informed and renewed by the divine Idea; and thus a unified cosmic whole, a “One Cosmos,” a universal order comes into being at the intersection of time and timelessness, of immanent and transcendent reality, in the medium of Space (and Time).

Compare the Platonic creation myth with the philosophy of Dionysius the [Pseudo-]Areopagite, said to be the Greek converted by St. Paul in Acts, 17:34. For Dionyius, the “names of God” — the divine qualities — are goodness, being, life, wisdom, power, and justice. Joseph Stiglmayr writes [Cath. Encycl. at the entry for Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite], that for Dionysius, God is

“… the One Being (to hen), transcending all quality and predication, all affirmation and negation, and all intellectual conception, [Who] by the very force of His love and goodness gives to beings outside Himself their countless gradations, unites them in the closest bonds (proodos), keeps each by His care and direction in its appointed sphere, and draws them again in an ascending order to Himself (epistrophe) … all created things [proceed] from God by the exuberance of being in the Godhead (to hyperpleres), its outpouring and overflowing … and as a flashing forth from the sun of the Deity. Exactly according to their physical nature created things absorb more or less the radiated light, which, however, grows weaker the farther it descends. As the mighty root sends forth a multitude of plants which it sustains and controls, so created things owe their origin and conservation to the All-Ruling Deity…. Patterned upon the original of Divine love, righteousness, and peace, is the harmony that pervades the universe…. All things tend to God, and in Him are merged and completed, just as the circle returns into itself, as the radii are joined at the centre, or as the numbers are contained in unity.”

The Platonic resonances seem unmistakeable in these lines. It appears that both Platonic speculation and the Logos doctrine of the ancient Church as articulated by Dionysius are in agreement that Creator must be “beyond” Creation in order to resonate with it — which resonance is what makes the universe to be alive — i.e., a living universe.

C. A. Dubrey points out [Cath. Encycl. at the entry “Teleology”], that the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas makes it clear that, “Intrinsic finality [we are to think of this as a blend or merger of efficient and final causes in the Aristotelian sense] consists in the fact that every being has within itself a natural tendency whereby its activity is directed towards the perfection of its own nature…. St. Thomas does not hesitate to speak of ‘natural appetite,’ ‘natural inclination,’ and even ‘intention of nature,’ [we moderns might be tempted to add ‘instinct’ to this list] to mean that every being has within itself a directive principle of activity. Accordingly, God does not direct creatures to their ends from outside, but through their own nature…. The Divine plan of creation is carried out by the various beings themselves acting in conformity with their nature.

When, however, this finality is called immanent, this expression must not be understood in a pantheistic sense, as if the intelligence which the world manifests were to be identified with the world itself, but in the sense that the immediate principle of finality is immanent in every being…. Thus the unconscious finality in the world leads to the conclusion that there must be an intelligent cause of the world.” [Emphasis added.]

Aquinas’ insight, and also Plato’s, evokes a reconsideration of Isaac Newton’s concept of Absolute Space. Possibly this may be understood in the following terms. First, Absolute Space is “empty” space. Second, it is not a property of God, but an effect of His Presence; i.e., we advert to theophany again. The question then arises, in what “where” or “when” does this theophany take place? Perhaps Newton’s answer would be: In the beginning, and continuously thereafter. Second, it has been suggested that Newton intends us to understand Absolute Space as the sensorium Dei: “God constitutes space and time through his eternity and omnipresence” [ existendo semper et ubique, durationem et spatium consitutit: Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, 3d ed., 1726]. Wolfhart Pannenberg writes,

“Now there are a number of good reasons — suggested by both philosophical and scientific thought — to consider time and space as inseparable. Einstein’s field concept comprises space, time, and energy. It takes the form of a geometrical description, and this seems to amount to a spatialization of time. The totality of space, time, and energy or force are all properties of a cosmic field.

“Long before our own age a theological interpretation of this subject matter had been proposed, and it was Isaac Newton who offered this proposal. It too referred everything to space or, more precisely, to the correlation of force as in the case of a force like gravitation acting at a distance. Newton’s well-known conception of space as sensory of God (sensorium Dei) did not intend to ascribe to God an organ of sense perception, the like of which God does not need, according to Newton, because of divine omnipresence. Rather, Newton took space as the medium of God’s creative presence at the finite place of his creatures in creating them.” [Wolfhart Pannenberg, Toward a Theology of Nature, 1993]

Thus the infinite takes priority over every finite experience, including intellectual experience — a position decisively argued by Descartes, as Pannenberg avers, “in his thesis that the idea of God is a prior condition in the human mind for the possibility of any other idea, even that of the ego itself.”

* * * * * *

The Influence of Platonic Speculation on the Early History of the Church
D. Edmund Joaquin, an insightful and gracious Christian friend, writes, “We understand that the universe is created and sustained by the Word [the Logos], and not only that, but by the Word sounding. God sustains the universe consciously and actively. He has not gone away and left us. In fact, He reveals Himself to us, and His final revelation is in the person of Christ [the Logos]. Christ is not an abstract aspect of God, like wisdom. He is God. He is God incarnating in the world that He himself has made.”

Joaquin further observes that “[the Gospel of] John is written to the Greeks and put into words that they could understand.” It seems there’s a mystery buried in here somewhere. Consider: Socrates was the teacher of Plato, who was the teacher of Aristotle, who was the teacher of Alexander — and Alexander spread Greek culture throughout Eurasia, the Middle East, and the Indian subcontinent. Add to this the fact that the great evangelist, St. Paul, had some difficulty converting the Jews to the Christian faith; but he converted the Greeks in droves. Not only St. John, but also St. Paul speaks in terms the Greek mind could readily grasp, as when he says God is He “in Whom we live and move and have our being.” These historical connections do not appear to be accidental, coincidental, nor incidental to the spread of the early Christian Church.

According to The Catholic Encyclopedia, the Greeks strongly responded to Christianity for its moral beauty as well as its truth. A case in point is St. Justin Martyr. He was a man of Greek culture, born in Palestinian Syria about the year 100 A.D, who converted to the faith around 130 A.D. Justin became one of Christianity’s earliest and most powerful apologists, and ended up condemned by the Roman authority for refusing to sacrifice to the pagan gods, for which offense he was summarily executed by the Imperium, along with several other of his “refusnik” co-religionists. The official record of their martyrdom is extant:

“The Prefect Rusticus says: Approach and sacrifice, all of you, to the gods. Justin says: No one in his right mind gives up piety for impiety. The Prefect Rusticus says: If you do not obey, you will be tortured without mercy. Justin replies: That is our desire, to be tortured for Our Lord Jesus, and so to be saved, for that will give us salvation and firm confidence at the more terrible universal tribunal of Our Lord and Saviour. And all the martyrs said: Do as you wish; for we are Christians, and we do not sacrifice to idols. The Prefect Rusticus read the sentence: Those who do not wish to sacrifice to the gods and to obey the emperor will be scourged and beheaded according to the laws. The holy martyrs glorifying God betook themselves to the customary place, where they were beheaded and consummated their martyrdom confessing their Saviour.”

Jules Lebreton writes (at the entry for St. Justin Martyr in Cath. Encycl.) “Justin tries to trace a real bond between philosophy and Christianity: according to him, both one and the other have a part in the Logos, partially disseminated among men and wholly manifest in Jesus Christ.”

Yet for all their apparent similarities and resemblances in many respects, there is a profound difference between Platonic insight and the Christian one: and this pertains to the relations between God and man.

Both Plato and Justin proclaim the transcendent God. Yet for Plato, God is so “beyond” as to be almost impossible of human grasp. Yet Plato felt the “divine pulls” in his own nature. These Plato thought could be accounted for and articulated by an act of pure unaided intellect, that is by nous, in a state of intense contemplation.

Contrast this position with Justin Martyr’s, who insisted that human wisdom was impossible without the testimony of the Prophets (whom God himself had informed and instructed) and the action of the Holy Spirit. For Plato, man’s relations with God consist of operations of the mind. For Justin, they are operations of the heart, of the Spirit. For Justin, God is not a mental abstraction: He is real Personality with whom one can have direct personal relations, in the Spirit.

A later writer, John Scotus Eriugina (ninth century) elaborates the Justinian position, in the process noting that there is a “downward tendency” of the soul towards the conditions of animal existence, and that this has only one remedy: Divine grace, the free gift of the Holy Spirit. “By means of this heavenly gift,” writes William Turner [at the entry for Scotus in the Catholic Encyclopedia], “man is enabled to rise superior to the needs of the sensuous body, to place the demands of reason above those of bodily appetite, and from reason to ascend through contemplation to ideas, and thence by intuition to God Himself.”

The pull of animal nature is an idea we also find in Plato, and also the countervailing pull from the divine Beyond. Man lives in the metaxy, in the “in-between reality” constituted by the two. Man’s task is to resolve this tension, and establish the proper balance that expresses the highest and best development of his human nature. But man must do this entirely by himself by means of nous or reason. There is no spiritual help “extra” to the human psyche available to facilitate this process.

In contrast, as Lebreton points out, Justin Martyr

“…admits that the soul can naturally comprehend what God is, just as it understands that virtue is beautiful … but he denies that the soul without the assistance of the Holy Ghost [Spirit] can see God or contemplate him directly through ecstasy, as the Platonic philosophers contended. And yet this knowledge of God is necessary for us: ‘We cannot know God as we know music, arithmetic, or astronomy’; it is necessary for us to know God not with an abstract knowledge but as we know any person with whom we have relations. The problem which it seems impossible to solve is settled by revelation; God has spoken directly to the Prophets, who in their turn have made Him known to us…. It is the first time in Christian theology that we find so concise an explanation of the difference that separates Christian revelation from human speculation.” [Emphasis added]

* * * * * *

Natural Law, Contingency, and the Scientific Method
The Platonic model encourages us to recognize that the universe is zoon empsychon ennoun, a living creature endowed with soul and intelligence. The myth of the Demiurge describes the world process as a type of incarnation, a dynamic relation of absolute being and contingent becoming evolving in space and time in a manner expressing a perduring taxia–ataxia relation. The Cosmos itself — the totality of all existing things — like its constituents, for example man and even the stars, is an eikon of being-in-becoming, a reflection or image of the divine Idea. Time itself is but a “moving image of eternity.” The life of the cosmos is wholly dependent, contingent on the Idea from which it manifests.

It is a lawful, orderly universe, yet one in which new occurrences are always arising. These new events are coming from, as it were, a “sea of contingency” analogous to Plato’s conception of Space, that is Chora — the infinite field of unformed, pure potentiality.

The immediately foregoing ideas, of course, are not scientific ones strictly speaking. Still, there are elements here that perhaps science would do well to consider, in order to maintain the integrity of its own method. For one thing, it seems science itself, in its disclosure of the regularities of nature, seems to have an in-built tendency to overlook contingency. We may define an event as contingent if a description of it is neither self-evident nor necessary, “if it could have happened differently,” as Ted Peters puts it in his Preface to Pannenberg’s Towards a Theology of Nature.

C. A. Dubray writes [“Teleology,” Cath. Encycl.], “The fact that the world is governed by laws, far from giving any support to the mechanistic conception, is rather opposed to it. A law is not a cause, but the expression of the constant manner in which causes produce their effects.” In other words, natural laws are expressions of observable regularities that occur in the world of existent phenomena in ordinary space-time reality. Thus, the laws themselves have no force as “causes”: they are descriptions.

Yet the focus on regularity inevitably masks the particularity and contingency of unique events. As Ted Peters notes, it is here that “we run into a problem of focus in the scientific community, because virtually all the theoretical attention is given to the regularity of nature’s laws, while the contingency of natural events slips into the nearly invisible background.” Peters continues:

“What researchers concentrate on are the uniformities that can be expressed in timeless equations. A dictionary of equations describing these uniformities allegedly constitutes scientific knowledge…. A closer examination, however, reveals that the applicability of these equations to concrete cases of natural processes requires certain initial and marginal conditions, conditions that in every case are contingent. Only when contingent conditions permit can we expect a natural law to operate as expected.”

To the extent that the scientific method of inquiry is premised on an “If/Then” logical construction — which seems ever to be the case — the method itself is an exercise in contingency, yet nonetheless one in which “Determinacy gets thematized, whereas contingency gets ignored.” Arguably this is a serious bias having epistemological implications; for e.g., “if the laws of classical dynamics are in principle temporally reversible, the actual course of natural events from which those laws have been abstracted is not. The reality of nature is first and foremost a historical reality.”

Pannenberg suggests a corrective for this “bias,” acknowledging: “That modern science so easily lends itself to abuse cannot be prevented in principle. It is one of the risks involved in the abstract study of regularities that either are inherent in nature itself or can be imposed on natural processes [e.g., as in ideological, technical, or engineering solutions]. This risk cannot be met on the level of scientific description itself but must be met first on the level of philosophical reflection on the work of science. It is on this level that the abstract form of scientific description must be considered with special attention to what it is “abstracted from” and what is methodically disregarded in the abstract formulas of science.”

And so contingent conditions — i.e, initial and boundary conditions — must be restored to their proper place in our deliberations, for they “are required for any formula of natural law to be applied. They are contingent at least in that they cannot be derived from the particular formula of law under consideration.… The mathematical formula of a natural law may be valid without regard to time. The physical regularity that is described by such a formula is not independent of time and temporal sequence. But it is only that physical regularity which makes the mathematical formula a law of nature. This suggests that the laws of nature are not eternal or atemporal because the fields of their application, the regularities of natural processes, originate in the course of time. Thus it also becomes understandable that new patterns of regularity emerging in the sequence of time constitute a field of application for a new set of natural laws….”

We may recognize that the total process of natural events presents itself to observation as a mesh of contingency and regularities. It is the task of science to pursue thematically the aspect of regularity. But, asks Pannenberg, can science “ever succeed in bringing into view the entirety of nature as determined in all details by a number of laws that are in any case not infinitely complex? This would mean at the same time that a stage of research is conceivable from which nothing more could be discovered. Many natural scientists have had this nightmare because of the successes of their own research. Fortunately it probably is not a truthful dream.”

For, says Pannenberg, “laws always uncover what is necessary superimposed on what is contingent. Given the undeniable contingency of occurrences in natural events, can we recognize in their special character as occurrences … [that] regularity as their own element in such a way that the presence of regularity can be thought together with the contingency of occurrences, not only under abstraction from the contingency of occurrences?” [Emphasis added]

Which is why Pannenberg advocates an opening up of new viewpoints in scientific research, “not because physical hypotheses or insights can be derived from them but because they open up and enlarge the intellectual space on which the formation of physical hypotheses depends…. In physics also, horizons of questioning have to be opened up first of all in order that hypotheses that arise in them can be examined by experiment and classified theoretically.”

Perhaps we need a greater appreciation of the “fitness” of the scientific method to engage the truly great questions of life, which ever seem to involve the relations of law and contingency. Leibniz propounds two great questions of perennial interest to the human mind: (1) Why are things the way they are and not some other way? (2) Why does anything exist at all?

Such questions, scientists will readily tell you, are beyond the purview of the scientific method. But does that mean such questions have no force or meaning such that they should not be asked at all?

Perhaps the incapability of the scientific method to answer such questions owes to the fact that all the great physical laws are acknowledged to be time-reversible; but we know that existence in space and time is not a time-reversible process. As Pannenberg states, it is a historical process. We might even say it is an evolutionary process.

Which suggests an analogy that might enlighten these questions, sharpen their meanings, and suggest additional questions: an analogy to direct human experience. Pannenberg writes of human beings, who do seem to live in a “time-irreversible,” that is “historical” process:

“Human beings never live only in the now. Rather, they experience their present as heirs of the past and as its active change. They anticipate the future in fear, hope, and planning; and in the light of such anticipation of the future they return to their present and the heritage of their past. The fact that we know of historical continuity is at least also conditioned by this peculiarity of human experience with time. If there is a new event, then it modifies the context of our consciousness of time which is already found present. It throws light back on earlier occurrences which have become a part of our experience already. In the same way, ideas that occur to us throw light on our previous expectations and plans in justifying, fulfilling, modifying, or disappointing and thwarting them. Thus the contingent event always enters already into a context of experience or tradition…. The future, beginning in the present happenings, is thus the origin of the perspective in which the past occurrences are put by every new experience.”

Worldviews and Paradigm Shifts
It is perhaps a truism that we tend to find what we’re looking for by screening out any and all potential elements which do not fit the pattern of our expectation. Arguably, the scientific method may be said inherently to suffer exposure to potential danger from this side, as suggested in the above remarks. Indeed, Schröedinger’s theory of wavefunction seems to predict this. Consider these remarks from Stephen M. Barr [Modern Physics and Ancient Faith, 2003]:

“In quantum theory, as traditionally formulated, there are ‘systems’ and ‘observers.’ Or rather, in any particular case, there is the system and the observer. The observer makes measurements of the system. As long as the system is undisturbed by external influences (that is, as long as it is ‘isolated’), its wavefunction — which is to say its probability amplitudes — will evolve in time by the Schröedinger equation…. However, when a measurement is made of the system the observer must obtain a definite outcome. Suddenly, the probability for the outcome that is actually obtained is no longer what the mathematics said it was just before the measurement, but jumps to 100 percent. And the probabilities for all the alternative outcomes, the ones that did not occur, fall to 0 percent.”

Thus we might say that the “reality” we humans experience ever involves “a moving goal-post.” And as the mover of this goal-post, the human agent is most indispensably involved in this process.

Faced with such “indeterminacy” regarding the foundations of experience, it is not surprising that people usually have recourse to mediating worldviews, or organized frames of ideational reality that constitute the conceptual space in which active experience is engaged and accordingly analyzed and interpreted. Certainly Plato has offered such a model. And so has Nobel laureate Jacques Monod [in Chance and Necessity, 1971]:

“Chance alone is the source of every innovation, of all creation in the biosphere. Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, is at the very root of the stupendous edifice of evolution. The central concept of biology … is today the sole conceivable hypothesis, the only one compatible with observed and tested fact. All forms of life are the product of chance….”

Needless to say, these two models are polar opposite conceptualizations. Yet having received each on “good authority,” which do we choose?

Such are not idle considerations; for as James Hannam points out [“The Development of Scientific and Religious Ideas,” 2003], “grand theories … often suffer death by detail where it is found that up close the situation is too complicated for the theory to handle…. [Yet] in the end, after it has changed the course of the river of enquiry, the theory can end up as a mortlake cut off from the general flow….”

Hannam cites historian Thomas Kuhn, who documents an historical process he terms “paradigm shift,” describing a situation in which the findings of authoritative science move “out of science and into practically every other field of human endeavor.” Once a given, albeit partial or even defective theory becomes “dominant,” writes Hannam, “far from being thrown out, a falsified theory is enhanced to deal with new information until such time as it finally collapses under the weight of anomalous results. Then, after a chaotic period, a new theory emerges that can deal with the anomalies and normal service resumes…. A paradigm refers to but one field, say classical mechanics or health policy whereas the ideology/worldview is the general background that underpins all the paradigms.”

The worldview (or ideology, if you prefer), for better or worse, implicitly shapes the background knowledge of thinking agents to which new experiences constantly are being conformed. Hannam says that worldview “is often so deeply embedded in the psyche that it is very rarely considered explicitly except by specialists,” but that nonetheless, “the worldview is seen as [a] self-confirming fact of life and hence it is not strictly rational…. The existence of a dominant worldview does not mean that a particular individual is unable to think outside the box but rather that his ideas are unlikely to fall on fertile ground. Unless new ideas can be stated in a language that makes them comprehensible to his peers, his intention in writing will not be met.”

Which is the not-too-subtle way to put the fact that every man has a worldview, without exception, whether articulate or inarticulate; and that somehow, for the “intention of writing to be met” — that is, for accurate and meaningful (i.e., successful) communication of ideas to take place — some deeper, common ground of shared truth must first be accessed, for the purpose of providing a more capacious intellectual space in which the human pursuit of knowledge and wisdom might unfold or evolve from its present point of attainment.

But where today in our modern world is such a common ground or field to be found? Hannam proposes the examination of the history of ideas as a possibly useful method in the search for common ground. He writes,

“To examine the history of ideas the only fair way to proceed would seem to place before ourselves the evidence and authority that the historical agents had before them and assume they acted rationally on that basis. Otherwise, there is no hope of ever tracing intellectual development because ‘cause and effect’ assumes some sort of logical causality that is impossible with non-rational agents. The best that could be hoped for would be a catalog of mental positions, with no way to say how one led to another except by being pushed by blind exterior forces. This might be precisely what determinists are advocating but they would have to give up any hope of finding causes and restrict themselves to explanations.”

Perhaps we moderns would do well to reconsider the common assumption that people living before our own time were somehow inferior in knowledge, experience, and observational powers as compared with our own status as enlightened individuals. Arguably, the ancient world produced some of the most powerful thinkers in the history of mankind, formulating ideas that were, in the words of Hannam, “the fruits of unfettered metaphysical speculation that inevitably hits on the right answer occasionally.”

Democritus, for example, proposed a theory predicting the atom as the ultimate constituent of matter, more than two-thousand years before the technical means existed to isolate atoms experimentally or, as Hannam notes, any “useful applications for them” could be found. Then it was discovered that the atom itself is an ordered constellation of even finer parts. There seems to be an historical progression of ideas here, the new building up on a framework originally laid up in the past, modifying it, improving on it in light of new insights and technical capabilities.

Hannam gives another example of more recent vintage: “Copernicus needed Nicole Oresme’s solution as to why we do not feel the movement of the Earth even though in Oresme’s time it was just a curiosity as no one thought the Earth actually was moving … each new idea, once accepted, shifts the boundaries of the worldview and makes it possible for further new ideas to be accepted into the pale.”

We can extend the examples even further. Reimann constructed a geometry, apparently because his mind could grasp the logic and beauty it revealed for its own sake. But at the time, it had no apparent “external referent” in the field of nature. It was a beautiful and glorious abstraction — until Einstein came along, and picked it up “off the shelf” as it were, to become the very language of relativity theory.

Thus it might be said that the evolution or “progress” of science depends on successive enlargements of the conceptual space it requires to do its work. In other words, science inherently is a participation in the historicity of the world.

Whatever our personal worldview, perhaps it would be well to recall that science is an historical process. Perhaps this understanding could open up additional, needed conceptual space that science itself requires in order to advance.


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: aquinas; augustine; christianity; churchhistory; contingency; cosmology; epistemology; justinmartyr; metaphysics; newton; ontology; plato; quantumfieldtheory; relativitytheory; schroedinger; spacetime; theology
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To: betty boop
Thank you for your insight!

OTOH, if God wanted to create a creature that He wanted to co-create with Him, then the accent on consciousness and free will would seem to be important. If not, then not.

IMHO, an often overlooked theme in Scripture is that everything in this heaven and earth is purposed towards the next heaven and earth – His will be done, His kingdom come. In this round, the children are being adopted. In the next round, the family is established. Growing up is all about how one exercises free will - both as a mortal and especially, as one of His kids.

Sleep well, dear betty boop! See ‘ya tomorrow.

661 posted on 01/12/2005 8:56:28 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: js1138
Let us postulate a computer capable of modelling the marketplace and of acquiring and exploiting all the data that exists in every nook and cranny of the marketplace, and can accurately predict market trends with some arbitrary precision. What happens when there are two such computers?

First, there is a mathematical limit to the predictive accuracy based on some complex factors; the entire set of market data is incomplete in a mathematical sense (or not perfectly modelable as a matter of algorithmic tractability), so perfect prediction should never be expected. Second, if you had two agents with perfectly symmetric capabilities in this regard, they would take equal shares of the market from other players but would be incapable of beating the other -- a stalemate. They would also be able to detect that another agent of similar capacity was playing the market without explicit knowledge of this fact. Third, theory generally shows that minor asymmetries (as one would expect to find in real life) decide decisively in favor of one or the other in a given domain over time. Fourth, everybody who plays in the market becomes a part of that system. Having to compete directly with other machines of similar intelligence makes modeling the system much more difficult because of the complex and relatively unpredictable (as required by math) consequences of the behavior of the other systems. They can manipulate "stupider" systems (like humans or lesser machines) with ease.

There are a lot of complex caveats here. Implementing tractable algorithms requires complex and clever trade-offs that impact efficacy in subtle but important ways.

Didn't we see something like this a few years ago with the automatic hedging programs?

No. The state-of-the-art for hedge funds ranges from limited and narrow to downright crude, mathematically speaking. That one can compute the mathematical limit of prediction of some dataset and create a model of said dataset that can make predictions that converge on that limit in terms of accuracy has been known for fifteen years. The problem is that the algorithm to create an "optimal universal predictor" is well-known to be intractable for anything but the simplest toy systems. And it turns out that the problem of engineering highly efficient approximations of this algorithm is very non-trivial, which is why it took a decade for researchers to start to figure out the nature of a clever general algorithm that can approach the predictive behavior and capability suggested by the math.

The hedge funds are very aware of these maths. They are most eager to get their hands on this technology because they understand the implications. And one (or more) of them may end up getting it.

The ability of mutiple entities to predict the future will diminish the effectiveness of all similar systems, because, in a competetive marketplace, all will be attempting to predict each other's behavior.

Yes, you would end up with an extremely efficient market with very thin margins, as the market would end up highly optimized in an information theoretic sense. But there is a first mover advantage here. You can expand the predictive accuracy of your system by buying bigger hardware and more mature model. Wash, rinse, repeat. As long as the first guy aggressively reinvests in his bootstrap, no one is likely to catch him. By the time anyone notices, competing could already be extremely prohibitive in terms of the resources required to catch up.

It is a very interesting thing, both in terms of theory and the practical ramifications. A deployed implementation in full bootstrap mode would in a very real sense be Archimede's lever; you hope that relatively nice folks win that race.

662 posted on 01/12/2005 9:32:43 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: tortoise
The underlying fallacy in reasoning here is a common variant of the classic False Dichotomy which we will call Quantizing The Continuum.

Well done. I've noticed this before (but not named it) when it comes to speciation. As a population evolves (and leaves traces in the fossil record), we arbitrarily label the individual fossils with different species names. We define species, however, by the ability to produce viable offspring. (We can't test that, of course, but no matter: it's certain that any creature would be unable to interbreed with a distant enough ancestor.)

The problem is that if every individual left a fossil, there would always come a point where a taxonomist would have to change species names between a parent and a child, but by any reasonable definition of species they have to be the same species.

(I could give examples from particle physics, too, but they're more abstruse.)

Our notation often forces us into your fallacy (sorry, to name a thing is to own it). The ignorant then proceed to read more significance into the names (and their attendant problems) than into the ideas.

663 posted on 01/13/2005 4:48:20 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Physicist
The ignorant then proceed to read more significance into the names...

There is a tendency on the crevo threads to argue about words rather than ideas. We see a lot of "logic" being applied on the crevo threads, as if finding a an example of verbal imprecision has some magic power to destroy the ideas behind the words.

664 posted on 01/13/2005 6:34:42 AM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: Physicist; tortoise; PatrickHenry; longshadow; StJacques; Alamo-Girl; betty boop

I would like to point out that there are uses for such a fallacy. It's a method for Amplification of Randomness.

One may observe a chunk of radioactive material and track whether there are an even or odd number of counts in an interval (I know that there's a bias towards even numbers but it's really small for large time intervals.) The underlying process may be continuous but the "rounding" to just parity gives a jumpy appearance. Other sources can be used, cosmic rays, thermal noise in circuits, etc. Such methods can (and are) used to generate keys for cryptographic systems. Schrödinger's Cat is a famous example.

One could drive a control system (switching a motor on and off, for example) with a randomly generated signal and thus produce a system where a small amount of uncertainty in input has a large amount of uncertainty in output. This sort of thing happens naturaly too; piles of sand (or rocks) may become unstable but exactly how they fall depends on very small inputs (the proverbial came's last straw.)


665 posted on 01/13/2005 6:38:35 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: tortoise
First, there is a mathematical limit to the predictive accuracy based on some complex factors...

I don't have the mathematical background to argue this at your level, but I think there is something missing from your analysis. I think that something is novelty.

There are all kinds of words and phrases labeling what I am trying to get at, but I think "emergent properties" might suffice.

We cannot predict the future because, contrary to aphorism, there are new things under the sun, things that cannot be anticipated from the properties of known things.

666 posted on 01/13/2005 7:29:33 AM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: tortoise; Physicist; Doctor Stochastic; js1138; betty boop; PatrickHenry; marron; cornelis; ...
I have a few observations on your new term, "Quantizing the Continuum":

Where there is a continuum – like earnings and temperature in your example – the quantizing is indeed arbitrary and the meaning of your term “Quantizing the Continuum” is quite apparent.

Also, as Physicist suggests where one sees speciation as a continuum in the geology record, the term expresses the ambiguity of naming species per se.

And in Doctor Stochastic’s example one might quantize a continuum for the purpose of amplifying randomness in a system. That is a useful concept for understanding how a natural system might seem to operate like a finite state machine (Rocha).

Indeed, your new term “Quantizing the Continuum” certainly has many applications, but I do not believe it can apply to the definition of biological life as you originally proposed it at post 633.

Biological life is not like earnings or temperature – or incomplete records over time – or amplified randomness in a system.

I assert the distinction between that which is alive and that which is not alive is clear to anyone who has visited a morgue, been with a dying person or animal, or looked at a dead cell under a microscope.

Dead biological organisms – or dead individual molecular machines (liver, heart etc.) within the dying organism – are quite distinctive from living ones. Dead cells are quite distinctive from living cells.

A living cell communicates (Shannon information: the reduction of uncertainty in a receiver or molecular machine in going from a before state to an after state) and is asymmetrical. A dead cell does not communicate and is symmetrical. The DNA and chemical composition does not change at the instance of death.

Also, if “Quantizing the Continuum” precludes a clear definition of biological life then it also diminishes all abiogenesis theory – because there could not be a point at which life begins. Evolutionists then could neither successfully exclude abiogenesis nor defend against the assertion of the very same term to argue against abiogenesis by definition. If the term prevails in this debate with reference to biological life, I for one will advocate the argument exactly that way.

667 posted on 01/13/2005 9:20:42 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Also, if “Quantizing the Continuum” precludes a clear definition of biological life then it also diminishes all abiogenesis theory – because there could not be a point at which life begins.

The strength of your argument lies in here somewhere. Something tells me that abiogenesis, given there is such a thing, is not part of said continuum. Hmmm.

668 posted on 01/13/2005 9:47:40 AM PST by cornelis
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To: Alamo-Girl
Dead biological organisms – or dead individual molecular machines (liver, heart etc.) within the dying organism – are quite distinctive from living ones. Dead cells are quite distinctive from living cells.

Is a broken computer not distinct from a working one?

Also, if “Quantizing the Continuum” precludes a clear definition of biological life then it also diminishes all abiogenesis theory – because there could not be a point at which life begins.

I expect that if we had complete and exact information about how life began, assigning the beginning point would be a matter of acrimonious debate.

Saying "I know life when I see it, and so do you" may work as a standard after a billion (or three) years of evolution, but early on, it may not have been.

Evolutionists then could neither successfully exclude abiogenesis nor defend against the assertion of the very same term to argue against abiogenesis by definition. If the term prevails in this debate with reference to biological life, I for one will advocate the argument exactly that way.

Since we have no information about how life got started, there's no point in arguing either way. The origin of bacteria is all hypothesis, while the origin of, say, birds is not.

669 posted on 01/13/2005 9:51:58 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Alamo-Girl
Dead biological organisms – or dead individual molecular machines (liver, heart etc.) within the dying organism – are quite distinctive from living ones. Dead cells are quite distinctive from living cells.

There are irreversible processes in organic chemistry. You can't uncook an egg. But the question has to be asked -- at what point exactly does a person (or a cell) die? What would it mean in your system of thought to take the DNA from a dead cell and transplant it to a healthy cell?

I'm sure you are aware that the definition of clinical death has shifted considerably in the last hundred years. Why?

670 posted on 01/13/2005 10:05:15 AM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: cornelis
Thank you so very much for your reply and insight!

Something tells me that abiogenesis, given there is such a thing, is not part of said continuum.

Indeed. In such a continuum, abiogenesis is false because it is a quantizing of that continuum.

671 posted on 01/13/2005 10:07:38 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
because there could not be a point at which life begins...

What complusion is there for a clear point at which life begins? We argue over the definition of life, even today.

672 posted on 01/13/2005 10:10:44 AM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: Physicist
Thank you for your reply!

Is a broken computer not distinct from a working one?

Indeed. And the distinction between a living cell and a dead cell is akin to the difference between a working computer and a broken one.

A living cell and a working computer both have information [Shannon: reduction of uncertainty in the receiver] They are successfully communicating. A dead cell and a broken computer do not have information, communications has ceased.

An important feature of information theory and molecular biology is that for every bit of information gained in the reduction of uncertainty (the measure of the information gain is the Shannon entropy after state less the before state) releases energy to the local surroundings (thermodynamic entropy, heat).

Since we have no information about how life got started, there's no point in arguing either way.

Theory is all that has been proposed for abiogenesis much like evolution. But the abiogenesis theory is now no more than idle speculation if one cannot define what distinquishes life from non-life.

The origin of bacteria is all hypothesis, while the origin of, say, birds is not.

I don't see how you can arrive at more than a speculation for either if you cannot speak to what life is or to the origin of any the molecular machines which comprise the organism. It all becomes a fuzzy, moving target.

"I know life when I see it" doesn't satisfy.

673 posted on 01/13/2005 10:25:55 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
In another post you suggested that it was entirely possible that the means to predict the future at something like a 95-percent confidence level was almost within human reach. [Or at least that’s how I interpreted your remark.] Yikes!!! But what magic or miracle is this? What is the basis of this expectation? Kindly pass the Shirraz, dear tort!!!

My, aren't we frisky tonight. :-)

No, 95 percent confidence in predicting the future is not what we have here. The problem boils down to this: Given a known prior history, what is the mathematical limit of accuracy for predictions regarding the immediate future i.e. what is the absolute bound on certainty for the prediction of the next state transition. In many (but not all) cases, the predictive accuracy rises above statistical chance with tractable datasets and computer systems. And given this, how good of a prediction can we actually make given some quantity of abstract computational resources to implement a predictor with i.e. bounding it to real implementation (hard problem, both math and engineering)? The effective limit on accuracy will vary as a function of a few parameters, not the least of which is the size of the machine acting as a predictor.

Do not think of this in terms of broad high-confidence predictions, though it is certainly possible, as that takes a hell of a lot of silicon to do. Think of it more in terms of a machine that can predict an apparently random boolean outcome 55 or 60% of the time for a complicated system. You don't have to predict correctly all the time, as even a slight bias toward correctly predicting systems that appear unpredictable will have a huge pay-off.

Interestingly, it has been known for decades that computers can predict individual human behavior better than other observing humans using simple induction, and often even when the human being observed is explicitly trying to be unpredictable.

674 posted on 01/13/2005 10:26:31 AM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: js1138
We cannot predict the future because, contrary to aphorism, there are new things under the sun, things that cannot be anticipated from the properties of known things.

Precisely, which is why we never get true certainty.

The problem is that the "system" in this sense is the entire universe. You can model subsystems in this universe as though they were isolated, but you give up some certainty when you do this. To put it explicitly and to paraphrase a basic theorem, we can never deterministically model anything in this universe from within the universe. But you can get pretty damn close for many subsystems for practical purposes over sufficiently short time windows.

Even small improvements in certainty is a huge thing, particularly from a normal human decision-making perspective. It is an interesting capability to make a decision knowing that you are making something close to a mathematically optimal decision because that means that, all things being equal, no one can ever make correct decisions more frequently.

675 posted on 01/13/2005 10:48:44 AM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: js1138; betty boop; Physicist; tortoise; Doctor Stochastic; StJacques; PatrickHenry; cornelis; ...
Thank you for your replies!

Indeed, I am aware that the definition of clinical death has changed over the years. And DNA serves a useful purpose in forensics long after the organism is dead.

What complusion is there for a clear point at which life begins? We argue over the definition of life, even today.

I assert to you that biologists and biochemists have a woefully over-simplified view of life, evolution and origins (Pattee et al). They not only cannot rigorously support their changing positions nor have they had an interest in doing so.

The rigorous support, the curiosity, the epistemological zeal to ask and answer these questions comes from the mathematicians and physicists who have entered the field. And they are not closeted theorists. With regard to information theory and molecular biology, I have been using Tom Schneider as the primary authority – he works in cancer research for the National Institute of Health.

The information theory brought to the table is rigorous, quantifying attributes which remain “fuzzy” to biologists. Based on Shannon-Weaver’s model, there is no confusion about what is alive and what is not alive. Also, it is the Shannon theory which explains the transaction of state changes in molecular machines, the DNA, the coding and opens the door for abiogenesis theory. The proof of the Shannon model lies in the physics, the transfer between Shannon entropy to thermodynamic entropy.

Likewise, it is cellular automata (von Neumann, Wolfram) and Kolmogorov complexity which tackles the rise of complexity in biological systems - a subject which usually garners a dismissive hand-wave from biologists. Failure to address complexity, makes the fuzziness an issue in itself and a soft underbelly to the theory of evolution.

Without these mathematics, the biologists will continue to stand at the door, fumbling with the keys convinced that one of them must surely fit the lock.

I cannot make the biologists curious but, by golly, I can destroy any claim they make to having answers when they refuse to look and decry those who do.

676 posted on 01/13/2005 10:52:08 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Theory is all that has been proposed for abiogenesis much like evolution. But the abiogenesis theory is now no more than idle speculation if one cannot define what distinquishes life from non-life.

What makes it idle speculation is that we don't have any physical evidence about the process, and are unlikely ever to have any. If we had complete information about every step of the process, there'd be no room for speculation of any kind, but we still wouldn't have agreement about the transition point. We'd each choose some distinguishing characteristic or some key event as the changeover point, and all of those choices would be arbitrary.

It all becomes a fuzzy, moving target.

No, it always was a fuzzy, moving target. That's how life is. If we find it easy now to tell life from nonlife, it's because the organisms we see are all the end products of billions of years of optimization. Early on, it probably wouldn't have been so easy.

Here's a different example. It's easy to tell a snake from a lizard. Go back far enough, and it would have been hard. Go back even farther, and there wouldn't have been a difference at all.

Does that mean that the modern difference between snakes and lizards is a matter of speculation or prejudice, or that we can't in principle lay out how they diverged? No. What it means is that even if you had complete information about every reptile that ever existed, you still wouldn't be able to make an objective, complete list of just the snakes. There's no spark of snakiness.

677 posted on 01/13/2005 11:18:10 AM PST by Physicist
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To: tortoise
knowing that you are making something close to a mathematically optimal decision ...

A lot is made of the fact that humans do not make good decisions about probability. We fret about tornados or airplane crashes, but eat too much and drive too fast.

There are places where optimal decisions need to be made -- managing investments for example, or optimizing structures. There are other places where optimal decisions are going to be ignored.

Unless we make ourselves completely obsolete and become pets of our cybernetic creations (or extinct), we are going to continue controlling the priorities of our optimizing automatons. There really isn't any objective way of optimizing life. Except evolution.

678 posted on 01/13/2005 11:51:05 AM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Your theorists may or may not stumble across the steps that led to abiogenesis (or steps which are capable of abiogenesis, even though not historical), but the fact will remain that there will be no moment in time, nor any single phenomenon that will objectively mark the transition.

Even if you define self replication as the defining phenomenon, I'll bet that self-replication turns out to involve structures that have varying probabilities of self-replication. Betcha a nickel.

:)


679 posted on 01/13/2005 11:57:48 AM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: Physicist; betty boop; js1138; tortoise; PatrickHenry; StJacques; Doctor Stochastic; cornelis; ...
Thank you for your reply!

What makes it idle speculation is that we don't have any physical evidence about the process, and are unlikely ever to have any. If we had complete information about every step of the process, there'd be no room for speculation of any kind, but we still wouldn't have agreement about the transition point. We'd each choose some distinguishing characteristic or some key event as the changeover point, and all of those choices would be arbitrary.

You just “made” an Intelligent Design argument wrt evolution. Your words are apt to be quoted on other threads.

No, it always was a fuzzy, moving target. That's how life is. If we find it easy now to tell life from nonlife, it's because the organisms we see are all the end products of billions of years of optimization. Early on, it probably wouldn't have been so easy.

Conversely, if there is no distinguishing physical difference between life and non-life – then not only is abiogenesis theory an utter waste of time but also, the best remaining explanation for any observed difference is non-spatial, non-temporal and non-corporeal - the so-called “ghost in the machine”. Again, you have “made” an Intelligent Design argument which also is a Judeo/Christian argument (neshama, nephesh, ruach).

Here's a different example. It's easy to tell a snake from a lizard. Go back far enough, and it would have been hard. Go back even farther, and there wouldn't have been a difference at all. Does that mean that the modern difference between snakes and lizards is a matter of speculation or prejudice, or that we can't in principle lay out how they diverged? No. What it means is that even if you had complete information about every reptile that ever existed, you still wouldn't be able to make an objective, complete list of just the snakes. There's no spark of snakiness.

Indeed, if one goes down the road of a physical “continuum” – a star, a rock, a lizard and a snake are all just arbitrary quantizations. It is a “system” (a creation or creature) - a whole in which the individual parts are arbitrarily and subjectively quantized by an observer, e.g. "snake" "lizard" "b Meson".

I presume you (like Aristotle) would dispute the real existence of Plato's symbols or forms and thus might be chagrined that we who are Judeo/Christian and mathematical Platonists would read that as further support for soul and spirit ("ghost in the machine") or alternatively, Tegmark's Level IV radical Platonist parallel universe.

After all, we do observe and experience by our senses a difference between life and death. Thermodynamics tells us that the physical must dissipate (dust to dust, heat death) so therefore, the "ghost in the machine" must continue to exist (really, truly and separately).

680 posted on 01/13/2005 11:58:53 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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