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The Ultimate Creation vs. Evolution Resource [16th Revision]
Free Republic and various other websites. | 2002-03-08 | Junior

Posted on 03/08/2002 10:11:15 AM PST by Junior

Working Theory of Evolution    Working Theory of Creationism

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The Ultimate Creation vs. Evolution Resource [16th Revision]

Burning up the FreeRepublic since June 1999

Revision Date:  2002-02-08

"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup." 


Working Theory of Evolution (contributed by Physicist)

At some finite time in the past, life began somehow. (How it began is beyond the scope of the theory, but the observational evidence strongly suggests that only one such beginning on Earth has left descendants to the present day.) As life reproduces and multiplies, mutations occur with small but finite probabilities, causing new genes to be added, and creating new alleles of existing genes. The different alleles confer different traits upon their owners, rendering them more or less successful in coping with their environments. The organisms that are more successful in coping with their environments consequently have a slightly greater probability of passing their genes to the next generation of organisms than do the less successful organisms. This causes allele frequencies to change over time.

Because mutations are random according to their probabilities, there is essentially a zero probability that two non-interbreeding populations will get the same set of mutations. (Even if they somehow do, there is essentially a zero probability that the frequencies of the alleles will end up the same in both populations.) The alleles and new genes available in each population will therefore diverge, with the result that the populations become genetically more distant from each other over time. Eventually, the two populations will become genetically so distant that they lose the ability to produce viable hybrids between them. This is the cause of the origin of species.

"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
Theodosius Dobzhansky (1973)


Working Theory of Creationism

Gen 1:1-31
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.  4And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.  5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.  6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.  7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.  8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.  9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.  10And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.  11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.  12And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.  13And the evening and the morning were the third day.  14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:  15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.  16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.  17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,  18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.  19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.  20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.  21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.  22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.  23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.  24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.  25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.  26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  27So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.  28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.  29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.  30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.  31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1-25
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.  2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.  3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.  4These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,  5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.  6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.  7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.  8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.  9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  10And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.  11The name of the first [is] Pison: that [is] it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where [there is] gold;  12And the gold of that land [is] good: there [is] bdellium and the onyx stone.  13And the name of the second river [is] Gihon: the same [is] it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.  14And the name of the third river [is] Hiddekel: that [is] it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river [is] Euphrates.  15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.  16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:  17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.  18And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.  19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.  20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.  21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;  22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.  23And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.  24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.  25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


Link/Thread Alphabetical Index

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*Mentions The Ultimate Creation vs. Evolution Resource (we're becoming famous!)

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Link/Thread Subject Index

Anomalous Artifacts, Sightings and Fossils    Astronomy    Avian Evolution    Bat Evolution    Catastrophism/Flood    Chronological Dating    Galileo    Human Genetic Bottleneck    Macroevolution, Speciation and Transitional Species    Vertebrate Evolution

Anomalous Artifacts, Sightings and Fossils

Astronomy

Avian Evolution

Bat Evolution

Catastrophism/Flood

Chronological Dating

Galileo 

Human Genetic Bottleneck

Macroevolution, Speciation and Transitional Species

Vertebrate Evolution


Thread Date Index

1999    2000    2001    2002

1999

2000

2001

2002

Original (2001-07-23)
2nd Revision (2001-07-25)
3rd Revision (2001-07-27)
4th Revision (2001-08-06)
5th Revision (2001-08-23)
6th Revision (2001-08-28) [Missing]
7th Revision (2001-09-25)
8th Revision (2001-10-19)
9th Revision (2001-11-09)
10th Revision (2001-11-15)
11th Revision (2001-12-10)
12th Revision (2001-12-17)
13th Revision (2002-01-02)
14th Revision (2002-01-10)
15th Revision (2002-02-08)


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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Since the last iteration of this thread, there have been 32 crevo threads. Considering it has only been four weeks since the 15th revision was posted, this is better than one thread per day -- proof positive the creation vs. evolution debate is still a major topic of discussion.

However, this thread is getting to be terribly unweildy. If any of y'all have any suggestions on how to make this a little more streamlined, please let me know.

1 posted on 03/08/2002 10:11:15 AM PST by Junior
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To: crevo_list;PatrickHenry;JediGirl;VadeRetro
Bump.
2 posted on 03/08/2002 10:14:07 AM PST by Junior
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To: Junior
However, this thread is getting to be terribly unweildy. If any of y'all have any suggestions on how to make this a little more streamlined, please let me know.

Perhaps just give it a rest? Is there any evidence that it really improves the debates?

Or does it just make you feel better?

3 posted on 03/08/2002 10:32:38 AM PST by Kyrie
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To: Kyrie
It's a resource so that the same ground doesn't keep getting trodden over. It has come in handy numerous times, especially when one needs to point out to one's opponent that his arguments were refuted earlier.

Besides, it shows the immense amount of effort the participants have put into these debates.

4 posted on 03/08/2002 10:35:51 AM PST by Junior
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To: Junior
If any of y'all have any suggestions on how to make this a little more streamlined, please let me know.

Think about breaking it into two threads, one for the parts that hardly ever change, and one for the rest. The "stable" thread could include the intro material and the chronological list of all threads before 2002. It should have links to the "variable thead", of course. Plus, perhaps, it could include some of the goodies you've had to delete along the way for lack of space. The "stable" thread could get updated, as required, but probably it wouldn't happen too often.

The "variable" thread would include (besides a link to the "stable" thread) the list of threads for the current year, the alphabetical index, and the subject index. It's possible that some subjects are so stable they could be in the first thread (Galileo, etc.) but this is probably too cumbersome, as it's an index and should all be in one place.

5 posted on 03/08/2002 10:42:20 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: Junior
Dump the creationist stuff.
6 posted on 03/08/2002 10:56:57 AM PST by stanz
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To: stanz
Can't. First off, it would no longer be The Ultimate Creation vs. Evolution Resource; but most importantly, the creationist stuff stakes out their arguments and positions and makes refutations of such so much easier.
7 posted on 03/08/2002 11:21:01 AM PST by Junior
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To: Junior
Another thought ... drop the alphabetical index completely. The subject index contains all the threads (I assume) and anyone can do a search for any particular words in a thread's title that he's looking for. It may be that no information would be lost this way. But I donno for sure.
8 posted on 03/08/2002 11:27:50 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: Junior
I know, I know....just trying to be a wise ass on a Friday afternoon.
9 posted on 03/08/2002 11:47:45 AM PST by stanz
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To: Junior
Best. Thread. Ever. Kudos, Junior - you do great work.

As for stream lining, I think PH is right - the alphabetical list is extra, and the date list should be subdivided with older than 4-6 months in a separate post. Also, for the subject list, put the Freep threads below the outside resources?

10 posted on 03/08/2002 12:08:37 PM PST by cracker
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To: Junior
Evolution vs. Creation. Can't anybody come up with a 3rd alternative?
11 posted on 03/08/2002 12:45:36 PM PST by opinionator
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To: Junior
Excellent work!!!!
12 posted on 03/08/2002 3:11:54 PM PST by RaceBannon
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To: Junior
I hate to see an issue fracture the members of FR. I love this website and agree with 95% of the people here on 95% of the issues discussed. I fear that my acceptance of the Theory of Evolution puts me on the opposite side of many people on this site who I respect a great deal for their other views and their other contributions. I am sad that this difference exists and I hope it doesn't get blown out of proportion here in FR. I'll man the barricades "to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America" with any and all FReepers, without a second thought of how anyone perceives this Creationism/Evolution debate. To me it's secondary to the big issues of Individual Liberty in the USA.

Again, I hope the honest differences of opinion here in FR on this subject don't get blown out of proportion.

13 posted on 03/09/2002 4:28:31 PM PST by samtheman
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To: Junior
The alleles and new genes available in each population will therefore diverge,

Problem with that statement is that the probability of a new gene being created through mutation is virtually impossible. This is the same false assumption Darwin made - that small mutations add up to large mutations. You cannot add mutations to get a new gene.

14 posted on 03/11/2002 4:54:13 AM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
How do you know WHAT the probability of creating a new gene is?
15 posted on 03/11/2002 5:39:14 AM PST by Junior
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To: samtheman
ev/cr is one of the longest running side issues on FR. I attaches to politics through the policies of the public schools. Plus it's fun, and I've learned a lot from it.

I don't think more that two or three FReepers have changed their minds as a result of the debates, but arguing forces you to clarify your own thoughts.

16 posted on 03/11/2002 5:46:06 AM PST by js1138
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To: Junior
How do you know WHAT the probability of creating a new gene is?

This is the guy who used to demand to know how many genomes are in a gene and he's supposed to calculate a probability for you?

17 posted on 03/11/2002 5:50:00 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Junior
How do you know WHAT the probability of creating a new gene is?

It can be estimated because the variables are known. There are 24 amino acids which make human proteins. Almost all genes in living species require a DNA code larger than 50 base pairs. This gives us 50 to the 24th power. My calculator gives 5.96 with 40 zeros behind it. Now a trillion dollars just has 12 zeros behind it. This is a humongous number and to think that thousands upon thousands of new genes were created at random for each of over a million different species, is quite ridiculous. Also note that the example here is for small genes. Some of the more complex genes code for over 2,000 DNA base pairs.

18 posted on 03/11/2002 5:10:28 PM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
Something about your reasoning does not ring straight. I get the impression you are mixing apples and oranges, or in this case DNA and amino acids.
19 posted on 03/12/2002 8:43:30 AM PST by Junior
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To: Junior
Probability from the guy who couldn't get the masses of the atmosphere versus oceans correct?
20 posted on 03/12/2002 8:49:02 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic
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