Free Grace

Wesley Center Online ^ | 1740 | John Wesley

[LiteKeeper]

Isn't "Free Grace" redundant? Grace is, by definition, free. I guess I need to read this later.

[ponyespresso]

If you ask, "Why then are not all men saved?" the whole law and the testimony answer, First, Not because of any decree of God; not because it is his pleasure they should die; for, As I live, saith the Lord God," I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth." (Ezek. 18:3, 32.) Whatever be the cause of their perishing, it cannot be his will, if the oracles of God are true; for they declare, "He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance;" (2 Pet. 3:9;) "He willeth that all men should be saved." And they, Secondly, declare what is the cause why all men are not saved, namely, that they will not be saved: So our Lord expressly, "Ye will not come unto me that ye may have life." (John 5:40.) "The power of the Lord is present to heal" them, but they will not be healed. "They reject the counsel," the merciful counsel, "of God against themselves," as did their stiff-necked forefathers. And therefore are they without excuse; because God would save them, but they will not be saved: This is the condemnation, "How often would I have gathered you together, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37.)

You posted this wrong. You ought to know that "all" doesn't really mean "all". These should read:

He is not willing that any should perish, but that a-few-randomly-chosen-people should come to repentance

He willeth that some-men-who-were-arbitrarily-picked-by-His-secret-will should be saved."

sheeze, get it right.

< /sarcasm>

pony

[fortheDeclaration]

Isn't "Free Grace" redundant? Grace is, by definition, free.

Not according to Calvinism, that is why they call it 'sovereign' Grace.

God only gives it to who He has selected in eternity past to save.

Grace is God's mercy, rooted in His love.

Man can reject that Grace by rejecting God.

Hence, Noah found Grace in the eyes of God because Noah followed God.

[fortheDeclaration]

You posted this wrong. You ought to know that "all" doesn't really mean "all". These should read: He is not willing that any should perish, but that a-few-randomly-chosen-people should come to repentance He willeth that some-men-who-were-arbitrarily-picked-by-His-secret-will should be saved." sheeze, get it right.

Amen! :>)

[LiteKeeper]

Not according to Calvinism, that is why they call it 'sovereign' Grace.
God only gives it to who He has selected in eternity past to save.
Grace is God's mercy, rooted in His love.
Man can reject that Grace by rejecting God.
Hence, Noah found Grace in the eyes of God because Noah followed God.

Nothing of what you said contradicts my assertion. Grace is still "free" by definition. One can reject it, or accept it, but it is still "free." I don't pay for it, I don't earn it, God simply, and freely bestows it upon me, whether I accept it or not.

[ahadams2]

I have to admit that as an Anglican (with a Lutheran background) I always get a kick out of watching the Calvinists and Anticalvinists fight over this sort of thing.

[Corin Stormhands]

Well, I don't mean to frighten you, but Wesley was an Anglican.

[drstevej]

Actually, it all is done for your benefit.

[Corin Stormhands]

Is not.

[fortheDeclaration]

I have to admit that as an Anglican (with a Lutheran background) I always get a kick out of watching the Calvinists and Anticalvinists fight over this sort of thing.

So, you have a bit of the sadist in you do you? :>)

[fortheDeclaration]

Nothing of what you said contradicts my assertion. Grace is still "free" by definition. One can reject it, or accept it, but it is still "free." I don't pay for it, I don't earn it, God simply, and freely bestows it upon me, whether I accept it or not.

Well, then you are stating that Grace is sovereign grace, which means that it is irresistable,.

Free grace (regarding salvation) is just that 'free' in that it is a gift (Rom.6:23), but like any gift, it can be rejected as well as accepted.

Christ cried out for anyone who thirsted to come to Him in Jn.7:37 (see Isa.55), but few come because they reject that grace.

Now, according to Calvinism only the elect receive the grace of faith, based on a sovereign election, a faith which cannot be rejected.

[ahadams2]

Yes Wesley was an Anglican, and as an Evangelical Charismatic Anglican I can truly say that both the Church of England (that's all there was of Anglicanism at the time) and the Methodists would have been better off if the Methodists hadn't been tossed out the door on the rear ends.

[ahadams2]

while at times it does help me sharpen my arguments against those who over emphasize predestination (and at others it helps sharpen them against those who go to Arminian extremes) my primary joy in watching these arguments is in the fact that if they're arguing with each other, they're NOT arguing with me. And quite frankly the way things are going in the Western portions of the Anglican Communion these days, especially for us Conservatives, *not* being in an argument can be seen as something of a plus, from time to time.

[ahadams2]

yes, but it balances out the inherent masochism required to survive in the Anglican Communion these days... :-)

[fortheDeclaration]

yes, but it balances out the inherent masochism required to survive in the Anglican Communion these days... :-)

Amen! LOL!

[John_burchett]

"No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me *draws* him".

The doctrine of predestination presuposes the total depravity of man [to use Calvin's words]. Far from "destroying the peace" of those who believe it, predestination produces peace, knowing that it is God who has done everything, not God + my works. If God didn't predestinate men, then no one would be saved. Praise God that He didn't leave us to our own devices.

[fortheDeclaration]

"No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me *draws* him". The doctrine of predestination presuposes the total depravity of man [to use Calvin's words]. Far from "destroying the peace" of those who believe it, predestination produces peace, knowing that it is God who has done everything, not God + my works. If God didn't predestinate men, then no one would be saved. Praise God that He didn't leave us to our own devices.

The Doctrine of Predestination presupposes that God put man into totaly Depravity so man would be unable to believe.

See Calvin's comments in Bk 3 on the reason Adam fell!

Your 'predestination' is simply God being arbitarary, creating most to send to Hell (for His glory) and saving some (no objective reason why any are chosen) to worship Him, thanking Him that they were not the ones sent to Hell.

Kind of like praising the arsonist for saving your life after he set the fire!

As for John 6:44, we also have John 12:32, that when Christ is raised up, He will draw all men to Him.

For further details see my posted article on 'Free grace vs forced grace'

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/940002/posts

[Gamecock]

I find it more amusing to watch Episcopalians and Lutherans argue over ordaining homosexuals. (Except of course the Missouri Synod )

[Gamecock]

BTW, what's your opnion of this bit of Anglican Doctrine:

Predestination to life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby, before the foundations of the world were laid, He has constantly decreed by His counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom He has chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation as vessels made to honour. Wherefore they which are endued with so excellent a benefit of God are called according to God's purpose by His Spirit working in due season; they through grace obey the calling; they are justified freely; they are made sons of God by adoption; they are made like the image of His only-begotten Son Jesus Christ; they walk religiously in good works; and at length by God's mercy they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination and our Election in Christ is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh and their earthly members and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it greatly establishes and confirms their faith of eternal salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it fervently kindles their love towards God: so for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the devil thrusts them either into desperation or into wretchedness of most unclean living no less perilous than desperation.