Questions for Dispensationalists, Part 2 of 4

Prophecy Questions Blog ^ | April 22, 2024 | Charles Meek

[grumpa]

Let’s see how dispensationalists answer a few questions. . . .

D. QUESTIONS ABOUT ISRAEL —

1. If the land promise to Israel is forever and unconditional, why did God say his promises were conditional on obedience in Deuteronomy 28 (cf. Exodus 1 9:5)? How is a 2,000-year gap forever?

2. Didn’t Israel receive all the land promised to Abraham per the book of Joshua (21:43-45; 23:14-15)? Didn’t Christ fulfill all the promises of God (2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16)?

3. If Israel and the church are separate groups, why is the gospel for everyone who believes—both Jew and Gentile? (Romans 1:16)

4. Wasn’t the kingdom taken from the Jews (Matthew 21:33-45) and given to another group, the “Israel of God” (Galatians 6:15-16)―those individuals, either Jew or Gentile, who believe? (Matthew 3:7-12; 22:1-8; 23:29-24:2; Romans 2:28-29; 10:1-4; 11:17-21; Galatians 3:28-29, 4:24-31; Hebrews 8:13; 12:22-29)

5. Don’t the New Testament texts comparing Israel to a fig tree (ref. Jeremiah 24) point to Israel/Jerusalem’s destruction rather than its restoration (Matthew 21:19; Luke 13:6-9; 21:29-32)?

6. At least some dispensationalists teach that salvation in the Old Testament was by works of the law only, while salvation in the New Testament is by grace only. Doesn’t dispensationalism wrongly divide justification by law and grace? Aren’t both law and grace (gospel) present in both the Old Testament and New Testament? Didn’t Paul in Romans 4, 5 teach that even the Old Testament saints were saved through faith? Didn’t God preach the gospel beforehand to Abraham (Galatians 3:8)? On the other hand, aren’t there plenty of statements in the New Testament about the necessity of Christians obeying the moral law (Matthew 5:19; Matthew 7:16-20; Matthew 13:36-43; Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:13; 3:31; James 2:10-17)?

7. When Jesus says in John 14:6 that no man comes to the Father but through Him, doesn’t Jesus mean what he says? “No man” would include Jew or Gentile, doesn’t it?

8. Do you believe that two-thirds of the Jews will be slaughtered in a Holocaust II (John Walvoord’s book Israel in Prophecy)? If so, how can you call yourself pro-Israel? When you pray for Jesus to come soon, or the supposed imminent rapture, aren’t you preaching or even asking for a near term slaughter of the Jews? Isn’t this teaching based almost entirely on one verse—Zechariah 13:8—yet the New Testament places the previous verse (13:7) squarely in the time of Christ (Mark 14:27; Hebrews 13:20)? Isn’t it clear enough that Zechariah 14:2 must refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70? Isn’t it true that there is no prediction in the book of Revelation about the annihilation of two-thirds of all Jews living in Israel by the Antichrist?

9. When it says in Romans 11:26 that “all Israel will be saved” doesn’t this have to mean, according to your doctrine, that “all Israel left after the two-thirds are slaughtered will be saved?” Isn’t the Israel of God now believers in Christ along with a remnant of the faithful of old (Luke 1:67-79; Romans 9:5-8; 11:5-24; Galatians 3:23-29; 6:14-16)?

E. QUESTIONS ABOUT HERMENEUTICS (biblical interpretive method) —

1. Dispensationalists say that you interpret the Bible literally. (Thomas Ice said, “In order to be a dispensationalist, one has to hold to a literal approach of interpreting the Bible.) But do you do so consistently? For example, when Isaiah 55:12 describes the mountains and the hills breaking into song and the trees clapping their hands, is this to be taken this literally? When Isaiah 13:9-13 describes God shaking the earth from its place and making the stars not show their light (predicting doom on Babylon, which all scholars agree was fulfilled in the past)―wasn’t this intended to be understood non-literally via Hebraic apocalyptic language?

2. If the Bible is to be interpreted 100% literally, why are the terms like “must shortly take place,” “at hand,” “quickly,” “before some standing here taste death.” “the time is near,” etc. not read literally?

3. If “soon” means “2000 years or longer,” does that mean it was going to take Timothy 2000 years to be sent to the Philippians by Paul? (Philippians 2:19) If a “day is as a thousand years” does that mean that Christ was in the grave 3,000 years?

4. If the Bible is to be interpreted literally, why do some dispensationalists say the seven churches in Asia (Revelation 1-3) are “church ages” and not “literal” churches?

5. If you think 2 Timothy 2:15 in the KJV (“rightly dividing the word of truth) refers to dividing biblical history into different divine economies, how do other translations affect your understanding? For example, the ESV reads, “rightly handling the word of truth.”

[grumpa]

For more information about dispensationalism, here are two helpful books:

1. "Dispensationalism: Today, Yesterday, and Tomorrow" by Curtis I. Crenshaw and Grover E. Dunn, III

2. "The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism: How the Evangelical Battle over the End Times Shaped a Nation" by Daniel G. Hummel and Mark A. Noll

[ealgeone]

>>To: ealgeone<<

Once again, has the Parousia already happened?

Yes, Jesus came in judgment in finality in AD 70.

But if you want to find passage that holds out hope for a second Second Coming, go to Acts 1:9-11.

29 posted on 4/10/2024, 9:30:59 PM by grumpa [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

*****

You can run, but you can't hide from this whopper.

Now, here is the passage chuck is holding up to support this whopper.

He's yet to explain the context of the passage as it relates to his comment.

9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

[aMorePerfectUnion]

All questions can easily be answered online if you spent the time.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Of course a number of the questions aren’t serious.

[MNDude]

If God blesses those who bless Israel and curse those that Israel, then why were the conquerors of Biblical Israel greatly blessed? like Rome (1000 year empire with the blessings of birth of Christianity), while Israel’s allies were annihilated?

[ealgeone]

2. If the Bible is to be interpreted 100% literally, why are the terms like “must shortly take place,” “at hand,” “quickly,” “before some standing here taste death.” “the time is near,” etc. not read literally?

Context, chuck...context.

Same thing I tell the Roman Catholics.

But I see context....among other things, is lost on you.

[ealgeone]

If God blesses those who bless Israel and curse those that Israel, then why were the conquerors of Biblical Israel greatly blessed? like Rome (1000 year empire with the blessings of birth of Christianity), while Israel’s allies were annihilated?

You're calling into question God's integrity and His decision on how the blessings are given.

[ealgeone]

I don't expect much from someone who advocates a "second, Second Coming."

Totally disconnected from reality.

[grumpa]

Eagle on High, you mis-interpreted and mis-represent my comment. I hold to the full preterist view, which I stated that Jesus came in finality in AD 70. The Acts 1:9-11 citation was for you or others who want a small leg to stand on, since that passage is the only clear instance in the New Testament that does not specifically or by implication limit the Parousia to the lives of those living in the first century. There are two groups who see dual Parousias: (1) partial preterists, and (2) dispensationalists who find Jesus coming at both the beginning and end of a 7-year tribulation.

[MNDude]

No, I am pointing out that God has graciously proved those silly Bible interpretations wrong.

Really, modern USA is the only place those beliefs have taken traction. Those beliefs lack any serious Biblical context but are rather fueled by pop culture.

[ealgeone]

What you’re saying is God’s statement in Genesis 12 wasn’t valid.

[cowboyusa]

Blog pimp alert.

[lurk]

Do you want an answer or do you just like to see the words you type?

Have you looked it up in scripture first?

[ealgeone]

Try and spin all you want.....but you said it.

Again, the most anticipated event in history, the Second Coming, has already happened per you and your other band of false teachers.

And there's no evidence of it recorded by the subsequent believers after 70 AD????

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—>> why were the conquerors of Biblical Israel greatly blessed? like Rome (1000 year empire with the blessings of birth of Christianity), while Israel’s allies were annihilated?

Not a new question.

Your assumptions are incorrect though.

Jeremiah 12:1

Righteous are You, O Lord, that I would plead my case with You;
Indeed I would discuss matters of justice with You:
Why has the way of the wicked prospered?
Why are all those who deal in treachery at ease?

[grumpa]

Eagle, please excuse me, but it’s amazing the vitriol that comes from professing Christians. Seems to me that a Christian ought to be able to disagree without being disagreeable. It’s easy to make glaring statements or attacks, but a lot harder to defend your views from God’s Word. Obfuscation is not refutation. It seems that you are about defending presuppositions, rather than relying on the Bible. But if you use the Bible as your source, I’m all ears. I provided numerous Bible passages as evidence; so far you have not.

[ealgeone]

Chuck, you hop on the RF and start making accusations against other believers such as Graham, Lindsey, Falwell, etc., and now that you're receiving pushback you go with this.

Eagle, please excuse me, but it’s amazing the vitriol that comes from professing Christians. Seems to me that a Christian ought to be able to disagree without being disagreeable.

Your quote:

These charlatans (yes, that’s a strong but deserved charge) include Hal Lindsey, Edgar Whisenant, Benny Hinn, Grant Jeffrey, Jerry Falwell, John Walvoord, Harold Camping, Perry Stone, etc., etc. These men added to false predictions by Christians for 2000 years, making a continuous mockery of Christianity. Something has been very wrong about prophecy. False Prophets

Now, I turned that right around on you and still call you a false prophet and charlatan because you are advancing one of the biggest errors in prophecy...claiming the Second Coming has already happened.

I do note you're not pushing your blog as much....which no one wants to read btw. As I've said before...you have something to say...say it.

This may be the first time you've encountered this kind of push back. But as folks will attest on these forums I take these conversations very seriously. When I see false information being put forth I vigorously challenge it....and will continue to do so.

I've learned in debates with other denominations when the battle goes against them they attempt relies such as yours just now.

I have asked you to exegete a specific passage to which I'm still awaiting your reply.

*****

To: grumpa

10‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Rev 3:10.

Exegete this passage please.

12 posted on 4/10/2024, 9:06:37 PM by ealgeone [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

*****

Now, you posted a quote from another source but I dismissed that as I want YOUR exegesis of the passage....which if I recall you said this was the one that really pushed you being a preterist.

And in that same thread is where you made your doozy of a statement on the "second, Second Coming." AT that time you really didn't seem to try and distance yourself from that quote as you are now.

But I'm still amazed you hold up Acts 1:9-11 as even being remotely close for your answer....hence, why I've asked you twice now to exegete the passage.....you do know what exegete means....right??

So you see, Chuck...I have answered with Scripture. It's just you've not answered.

But here's another one...let's see if you can answer it.

2. If there is to be a re-built temple with animal sacrifices and rituals, wouldn’t that be denigrating to Christ’s ONCE-FOR-ALL sacrifice? (Hebrews 10:10)

If the Temple is rebuilt...what does that tell us?

Should be a simple enough answer.

See, Chuck...I am using the Bible for my answers. I am also using history in connection with the Bible for my answers.

And those say the Second Coming has not happened....yet.

[ealgeone]

11. The Great White Throne Judgment. All those in hell will be brought forth, and all the wicked from all eras of history will be resurrected to stand before God in a final judgment (Revelation 20:11–15). The verdicts are read, and all of sinful humanity is cast into the lake of fire.

Based on this post of yours, it's all over.

Or are you saying there isn't a real literal hell?

[wardaddy]

Is Huckabee a dispy?

[MNDude]

The Lord had said to Abram...

Not to descendants of Abraham. If he did, it would seem God didn’t keep his promise. Because every nation that kicked Israel’s ass never end up any worse off than any other nation.

It’s because that promise was SPECIFIC to Abraham. Or are you saying his promise was really disappointing a dozen times in the past?

God promised Solomon wisdom. Thank God nobody has foolishly interpreted that to mean al if his descendants as well.

Gods “curse, blessing” promise was not directed to Biblical Israel, much less to Israel in the new covenant world.