Posted on 10/26/2020 6:10:50 AM PDT by Cronos
Evangelicalism was not enough for Joel and Stephanie Dunn, though they come from several generations of Baptists.
And in desperate pursuit of God, they wound up amid candles, incense, beautifully-painted wooden icons, and Divine Liturgy — in the communion of saints whose lives they now say have provided the medicine for their sin-sick souls.
For the Dunns, things came to a head in 2016 when they realized that their current faith tradition, Southern Baptist, was inadequate. They were received into the Eastern Orthodox Church in 2018. Having been in the church for over a year, they were catechized for about that long in an Antiochan parish in northern California, a parish reportedly "bursting" with new converts from Protestantism.
..."Orthodoxy is not transactional. It's not 'I say a prayer, and now I have a card that gets me out of Hell and gets me into Heaven.' But rather it is being brought into the church life. And in the church life, you can be transformed through the graces that are presented within the spiritual gymnasium that is the church," he said.
...The couple started reading Mathewes-Green's book, Welcome to the Orthodox Church,
"As an evangelical, I always had this mindset, and it may have just been me and not what other people teach, but the idea was that I could remove whatever it was about me and put Jesus in there,” Joel said. “But Orthodoxy flips that around. God doesn't want to remove you from yourself and have Jesus there in place of that; He wants to heal you from all that is wrong with you so you can be who He created you to be.”
Stephanie added, "What really struck me about the Eastern Orthodox Church is in the story of the Good Samaritan. The church is seen as the hospital. Christ is the Good Shepherd. He comes along and picks me up, wounded from sin and my passions and brings me to the hospital for the soul, the church."
...Orthodox Christians understand icons to be windows into Heaven, pictures of the indwelling Christ in people.
The Dunns came to believe, particularly given the heavy emphasis on the Incarnation, that the faith traditions they grew up in were largely Gnostic, that the spiritual realm didn't really ever intersect with reality.
"Orthodoxy is not like that. Every service incorporates all five of your senses. It incorporates your body. You're standing up, sitting down. You're smelling incense. You're singing and hearing bells," Joel said.
During the Divine Liturgy where Eucharist is served, they came to believe they were in this sense of timelessness where they are with the church in Heaven and there have been accounts of seeing angels and Christ come in on the throne.
"The sense of being surrounded by that great cloud of witnesses, the icons do so much to remind us of much of that, that we are surrounded by these people and that we can ask for their intercession," Stephanie said.
...God revealed Himself to us in the form of Christ but the problem is that with all these different denominations, especially within evangelicalism, it mostly rests on Sola Scriptura and lacks tradition, she noted.
"Tradition is what gave us Scripture. Scripture is part of Holy Tradition; it's not the whole of it. That's not all that the Apostles taught. We want to know ‘what else did they teach?’ When Christ revealed Himself to us, He also showed us how He wanted to be worshiped and it looked a lot like Jewish worship."
Today, Joel asks evangelicals to "give Mary a chance."
Asked to expound on what he means by "give her a chance,” he elaborated: "Revere her in a way you haven't before because she provided the Savior."
"And there is a reason that she has been venerated since the beginning of the church and I don't fully understand her role and it's uncomfortable to ask for her intercessions at times, but at the same time, she is the one praying and interceding on behalf of all of us to her Son. And it is through her prayers that most of us come to know Him."
"I grew up my whole just thinking that Mary was just some random chick that just happened to be there at the right time and right place and it's just not so. The history of the church has put her in a place where she should be and if evangelicals could give her a chance, it might open up their world to her."
Stephanie interjected, "Our salvation is not possible without her. And He chose to make it that way."
Joel continued, "And we say in the Liturgy, 'Theotokos (Mother of God) save us’ … If you don't understand that during the Liturgy, we transcend space-time as we know it. We're telling her, ‘Accept what the angel is telling you, accept this child because it is through Him that we shall all be saved.'
"And don't be so literal about everything. Everything is not literal. God didn't set it up that way. We're not computer programs, we're people."
Orthodoxy is daily lived repentance to the glory of God, the Dunns emphasized.
"The most transformative aspect of this whole thing for me has been to see suffering not as something that God — I used to think 'why does God allow this, I did all these things right, this stuff keeps happening, I can't handle it.’ And then you hear of other people who have horrible thing after horrible thing happen,” Stephanie said.
But within Orthodoxy, suffering is seen as a tool, she explained.
Trent-
“If anyone asserts that this sin of Adam, which in its origin is one, and by propagation, not by imitation, transfused into all, which is in each one as something that is his own, is taken away either by the forces of human nature or by a remedy other than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ . . . let him be anathema.” (Session V, 3)..
The Church clearly states The Blessed Virgin Mary is NOT a substitute for Christ as asserted by non-Catholics.
I’m just glad that you finally agree with your saints, fellow Catholics, Justin Martyr, AND THE SDA CHURCH that Michael the archangel is Jesus Christ.
Saint Melito of Sardis:
The Lord Jesus Christ is acknowledged as the perfect Reason, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator with the Father; who was the Fashioner of man; who was all things in all; Patriarch among the patriarchs, Law in the law, Chief Priest among the priests, King among the kings, Prophet among the prophets, Archangel among the angels;
Now you just have to convince 4/5 of your priests to stop being homosexual.
What your man made Church confirms is meaningless in light of the scriptures...Your constant worshiping of Mary by 'praying to her' will get you nowhere...She can't hear you...If she could she'd come down here and put a curse on you for worshiping her...
Mary is only half complete...Her body has turned to dust and is laying in the ground somewhere waiting on the redemption of her body to complete her transformation into a celestial body...
Why would you waste your time praying to Mary when it is Jesus who says, Come unto me (not my mother) and I will give you rest...
Jesus is not unapproachable...He pleads with us to come to him...
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
If you think you can get mercy and grace by or thru Jesus' mother, your going to be in for one massive surprise...
While others may not agree, I figure my mother was blessed to have me...She may not even agree...
But I'm just using your Logic.
You say The Blessed Virgin was a "sinner" because she said in Luke - "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour."... and so is obviously in need Salvation from her sinfulness, like all of us.
(Which by the way is NOT the way a Jewish girl would perceive for her Jewish "Messiah"... and since Mary just being an ordinary Jewish Girl - she would have understood that Messiah's coming meant- and that he would be a King - a warrior, a revolutionary whose mission was to deliver ONLY for the Jews. The Jewish Messiah - is not a savior concerned with the afterlife of humanity. THEN- the main mission of the Jewish Messiah was to secure the return of all exiled Jews to the land of Israel, not in the afterlife but on earth... The Christian ideals for redemption - and the purposes for the atonement for sins, was neither prevalent yet- and certainly not what the Jews were concerned with. They had the Law- and the works of those Laws that Christ would often rebuke them for. But Mary was not waiting for the Jesus that she would bring into this world.) But if you want to think Mary was desiring of Christian salvation so be it.
But if Mary needs a savior and and she knows it - as you say - then Christ needed to be Baptized and he knew it. What else would a need for Baptism- renewal -be if not sin? Just playing along ?
No - Christ was sinless... Baptism for Jesus was obviously NOT the same as for us... God has done something miraculous- in ALL of time for the Blessed Virgin- that cannot be denied. No other would be chosen to Mother Christ.
This logic of "it must be so" also inspires the atheist who is wrong to argue "ALL men have sinned and fallen short...." - Well, Christ was a man...albeit God incarnate... so he should be included in All due to a natural birth of Mary, so as Man- sinner... All means All afterall....
You may have enough Faith to explain those things that are not always obvious in scripture, but when the faith stops short of believing in the magnificence of what God has done, and is able to do for us... you ascribe to God a limited ability - even to choose the Mother of our Lord - that is ultimately constrained by your personal view to accept or deny.
Martin Luther actually puts it pretty good , even after leaving the Church....
"One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)
You know very little of what the Church believes - or its doctrines.
How could you.
For the third time; what did she choose?
I can understand some folks thinking I'm a woman; but it takes a really special person to toss in the transgender as well.
Like I typed before; I've neither the desire or the inclination to correct folks for leaps of speculation.
It would depend on how long the power was knocked out.
Remember the East Coast blackout of...
Stir up that old pot; as this thread is fizzing out.
Our FR Catholics have been SHOWN the scripture (that Rome has provided BTW) that you refer to here in many, many threads.
They just insist on repeating what they have been taught (and evidently believe) over and over and over.
But; hopefully; not AFTER going thru what Job did!
Just where have the non-Catholics said she was a 'substitute'?
Well; FR is blessed to have you!
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I guess Google fails to work on Izzy’s computer.
Stork
See you at the pre trib rapture. 👍
I doubt CRONOS (a fallen angel name, IIRC) will be at the PreTrib Rapture since it will only include those whom GOD has born again into His Eternity.
And given your displayed effort to conflate your ORG with the actual Body of Christ which is the true Ekklesia/CHURCH, it is a fair bet you know little to nothing about The One True EKKLESIA Body of Christ. But then we already know you’re a blind Catholic and not likely a Christian just a wannabe. But you will never find The One True Church membership so long as youkeep trusting in your works to earn what God gives by Faith Alone in Christ Alone.
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