Posted on 10/26/2020 6:10:50 AM PDT by Cronos
Evangelicalism was not enough for Joel and Stephanie Dunn, though they come from several generations of Baptists.
And in desperate pursuit of God, they wound up amid candles, incense, beautifully-painted wooden icons, and Divine Liturgy — in the communion of saints whose lives they now say have provided the medicine for their sin-sick souls.
For the Dunns, things came to a head in 2016 when they realized that their current faith tradition, Southern Baptist, was inadequate. They were received into the Eastern Orthodox Church in 2018. Having been in the church for over a year, they were catechized for about that long in an Antiochan parish in northern California, a parish reportedly "bursting" with new converts from Protestantism.
..."Orthodoxy is not transactional. It's not 'I say a prayer, and now I have a card that gets me out of Hell and gets me into Heaven.' But rather it is being brought into the church life. And in the church life, you can be transformed through the graces that are presented within the spiritual gymnasium that is the church," he said.
...The couple started reading Mathewes-Green's book, Welcome to the Orthodox Church,
"As an evangelical, I always had this mindset, and it may have just been me and not what other people teach, but the idea was that I could remove whatever it was about me and put Jesus in there,” Joel said. “But Orthodoxy flips that around. God doesn't want to remove you from yourself and have Jesus there in place of that; He wants to heal you from all that is wrong with you so you can be who He created you to be.”
Stephanie added, "What really struck me about the Eastern Orthodox Church is in the story of the Good Samaritan. The church is seen as the hospital. Christ is the Good Shepherd. He comes along and picks me up, wounded from sin and my passions and brings me to the hospital for the soul, the church."
...Orthodox Christians understand icons to be windows into Heaven, pictures of the indwelling Christ in people.
The Dunns came to believe, particularly given the heavy emphasis on the Incarnation, that the faith traditions they grew up in were largely Gnostic, that the spiritual realm didn't really ever intersect with reality.
"Orthodoxy is not like that. Every service incorporates all five of your senses. It incorporates your body. You're standing up, sitting down. You're smelling incense. You're singing and hearing bells," Joel said.
During the Divine Liturgy where Eucharist is served, they came to believe they were in this sense of timelessness where they are with the church in Heaven and there have been accounts of seeing angels and Christ come in on the throne.
"The sense of being surrounded by that great cloud of witnesses, the icons do so much to remind us of much of that, that we are surrounded by these people and that we can ask for their intercession," Stephanie said.
...God revealed Himself to us in the form of Christ but the problem is that with all these different denominations, especially within evangelicalism, it mostly rests on Sola Scriptura and lacks tradition, she noted.
"Tradition is what gave us Scripture. Scripture is part of Holy Tradition; it's not the whole of it. That's not all that the Apostles taught. We want to know ‘what else did they teach?’ When Christ revealed Himself to us, He also showed us how He wanted to be worshiped and it looked a lot like Jewish worship."
Today, Joel asks evangelicals to "give Mary a chance."
Asked to expound on what he means by "give her a chance,” he elaborated: "Revere her in a way you haven't before because she provided the Savior."
"And there is a reason that she has been venerated since the beginning of the church and I don't fully understand her role and it's uncomfortable to ask for her intercessions at times, but at the same time, she is the one praying and interceding on behalf of all of us to her Son. And it is through her prayers that most of us come to know Him."
"I grew up my whole just thinking that Mary was just some random chick that just happened to be there at the right time and right place and it's just not so. The history of the church has put her in a place where she should be and if evangelicals could give her a chance, it might open up their world to her."
Stephanie interjected, "Our salvation is not possible without her. And He chose to make it that way."
Joel continued, "And we say in the Liturgy, 'Theotokos (Mother of God) save us’ … If you don't understand that during the Liturgy, we transcend space-time as we know it. We're telling her, ‘Accept what the angel is telling you, accept this child because it is through Him that we shall all be saved.'
"And don't be so literal about everything. Everything is not literal. God didn't set it up that way. We're not computer programs, we're people."
Orthodoxy is daily lived repentance to the glory of God, the Dunns emphasized.
"The most transformative aspect of this whole thing for me has been to see suffering not as something that God — I used to think 'why does God allow this, I did all these things right, this stuff keeps happening, I can't handle it.’ And then you hear of other people who have horrible thing after horrible thing happen,” Stephanie said.
But within Orthodoxy, suffering is seen as a tool, she explained.
HMMMmmm...
Again; what CHOICE was presented to her?
| Luke | |||||
| English: Douay-Rheims | Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000) | Hebrew: Modern | Latin: Vulgata Clementina | ||
| 28. | And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. | και εισελθων ο αγγελος προς αυτην ειπεν χαιρε κεχαριτωμενη ο κυριος μετα σου ευλογημενη συ εν γυναιξιν | ויבא המלאך אליה החדרה ויאמר שלום לך אשת חן יהוה עמך ברוכה את בנשים׃ | Et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit : Ave gratia plena : Dominus tecum : benedicta tu in mulieribus. | .28 |
We were doing fine; arguing among ourselves...
Who’s “we”? You didn’t join the conversation until post 96.
LOL
I’m scolding someone for judging based on little information.
It’s like someone judging you, Elsie as being a transgender woman based on your name - i.e. on little to no information
I figure, that either the stork brought Mary all her other children, or she had a normal sex life with her husband, and gave birth to them. 😁😆😂😀 I am sure Mary gave birth to her other children. 👍👌 I doubt the storm brought them. 😁🤣
Ah phil, taking links from your website that says Jesus is the archangel Michael again?
Hey, how’s your prophetess, Ellen G White doing?
Nope - it's saying she was the mother of the Savior. More than that is your self-interpretation - just as Philsworld interprets the Bible that Jesus is the archangel Michael and as Iscool interprets it that the Trinity does not exist.
Then that chucks out 99% of the "e"s
Do you need Evangelicals like the Oneness Pentecostals who say that the Trinity does not exist?
The pre-Trib rapture denies the very words of Christ that "this generation" i.e. the generation listening to him then in circa 30 AD, would see the Great Tribulation (of 64 AD to 67 AD) and the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD) after the 3.5 years/42 months/1260 days and the Abomination as spoken of in Daniel.
Dude, give up the false religion of the pre-Trib rapture -- at least that's one thing that Philsworld (the guy who says Jesus is the archangel Michael) thinks is false as well.
Great emphasis is laid upon the teaching that the Sabbath day is on Saturday, and if a person does not keep Saturday as Sabbath, he cannot be saved. Ultimately, according to SDA theology, your salvation in the last days boils down to the day you worship on. Simply put, there is no salvation outside the SDA church. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith and nothing more. Ephesians 2:8-9
Ellen G. White taught that all other churches except the SDA church were teaching lies from the Devil. Only SDA members are true and obedient believers; prayers spoken in other churches are only answered by the Devil. This is a man-made doctrine not found in the Bible.
They believe that in the last days just before Christ returns, only those worshipping on Saturday will be saved. They particularly believe that worshipping on Sunday will be the mark of the beast. They consider themselves to be the only true, remnant church and all others will be condemned in time. This is a man-made doctrine not found in the Bible. The mark of the beast will be a literal mark, either in your forehead or in your hand. Revelation 14:9
They firmly believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel and this is the name used for him (Jesus) in the Old Testament; yet also believe that Jesus is God. Jesus is God, he is the Creator; (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16-17; Hebrews 1:1-6) whereas, Michael is just an angel, a created being.
They believe that the atonement through Jesus is not complete until He comes again, only your past sins are forgiven by grace up to that point. The Bible says that the atoning work of Jesus is finished, never again to be repeated. John 19:30; Hebrews 9:24-28
They believe in the "sanctuary teaching" that Jesus is now cleaning the sanctuary in the heavens before he can return to the earth. This is a man-made doctrine not found in the Bible.
They believe you will have to stand in the presence of the living God for judgment without a mediator. The Bible says that there is one mediator between God and men, and that is Jesus himself. I Timothy 2:5
The believe you can be sinless, also known as "sinless perfection". Meaning that a person can become sinless while they are still living on this earth in their physical body. The Bible says that all are born with sin. All throughout the New Testament, the various authors write about fleeing and resisting sin, they themselves struggled with sin. This is a man-made doctrine not found in the Bible.
They won’t tell you that early Adventists expected the literal second coming of Christ in 1843 and 1844 only to be disappointed. They won’t tell you that their 1844 "investigative judgment" teaching was born out of an attempt to cover over this false prophecy. Instead of repenting over this false date, they believe that Christ really came, but INVISIBLY in heaven. As an SDA you now enter a period of "investigative judgment" where every deed you do or don’t do is recorded for judgment day. You will even be judged for "idle moments" where you could have been more obedient. When Christ comes, every eye shall see it (Revelation 1:7). At the Judgment Seat of Christ, we will be judged.
I Corinthians 3:11-15; II Corinthians 5:10
They believe the doctrine of soul sleeping, which states that the souls of believers in Christ are not in heaven, but are sleeping in the graves. The Bible says those who were saved on earth by receiving Jesus Christ as their Saviour and died are now living a full and joyous life in heaven. Revelation 7:9-17
They believe in the final and total annihilation of the wicked, where they will simply cease to exist after the final judgment. This doctrine is in harmony with the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Bible says they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:12-15
They do not believe in the eternal punishment of Satan and his fallen angels. They believe that the penalty for sinning against a Holy God is merely annihilation. Satan is the scapegoat; the sins of the believers are laid upon him, and he and these sins are finally burned up. The Bible says that Satan and his fallen angels will be cast in the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:10-15
They believe in and demand vegetarianism. There is no place in the Bible where God demands this. There is nothing wrong if a person chooses to be vegetarian for personal or health reasons, but it should never be tied in with our salvation.
They believe you should revere their founding prophetess, Ellen G. White, viewing her as having the "spirit of prophecy" referred to in the book of Revelation. Ellen G. White's writing are considered as inspired as the Bible and are used as a authoritative source of truth. In spite of revering her, they won’t ordain women as ministers. Ellen was a proven plagiarist and therefore a liar. God's attributes are truth and light (I John 1:5-6), whereas, Satan's attributes are darkness and lying (John 8:44).
It would be really enlightening for you to explain your modalist beliefs to the audience. you can read about the orthodox definition of the trinity online if you wish.
I know some people (not me) like to think Mary was given a choice, about being the mother of Jesus. Funny thing bro, I don’t recall the Angel Gabriel giving Mary a choice about anything. He TOLD her what was going to happen. He didn’t ask her permission. 😁😆👍
I agree now days they don’t teach Bible as they should. It was not always so. They do teach enough for people to know salvation is by faith alone believing in Jesus Christ’s death burial and resurrection. Believing in His birth is not a requirement.
As A W Tozier said, we aren’t alone with our thoughts long enough to process what a preacher says. We are constantly bombarded with music, t.v. travel..never a quiet time in most lives.
Once saved and having Christ in us the Bible is where we need to be reading and seeking understanding. The better we know Him through His Word the better we love Him, more real He becomes to us and the more sure we are of our standing.
If we the Church could only realize the great privilege we are offered in Christ. Only believe in Jesus. No other people have ever been offered such an arrangement. No commandments to keep and no work to be done for salvation.
Even in the millennium there will be no offer of salvation like this.
We are adopted by God and made heirs with Christ Jesus, that to me is so wonderful to think upon.
+++1
On the Trinity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw
From a practical standpoint, while the doctrine of the Trinity can be deduced from what the Bible says, it clearly is not a critical doctrine since it is never clearly taught. It is, frankly, a doctrine rooted in philosophers playing word games with Scripture instead of focusing on what is already clearly taught. If a clear description of the Trinity was required for salvation, we’d all be damned. And no, the creeds developed by philosophers are NOT in any sense clear. They are just words approved by men who may well have been non-Chrisitans, given what they were arguing about!
8 Be careful that nobody spoils your faith through intellectualism or high-sounding nonsense. Such stuff is at best founded on men’s ideas of the nature of the world and disregards Christ!
9-10 Yet it is in him that God gives a full and complete expression of himself (within the physical limits that he set himself in Christ). Moreover, your own completeness is only realized in him, who is the authority over all authorities, and the supreme power over all powers.
11-15 In Christ, you were circumcised, not by any physical act, but by being set free from the sins of the flesh by virtue of Christ’s circumcision. You, so to speak, shared in that, just as in baptism you shared in his death, and in him are sharing the miracle of rising again to new life—and all this because you have faith in the tremendous power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.
You, who were spiritually dead because of your sins and your uncircumcision (i.e. the fact that you were outside the Law), God has now made to share in the very life of Christ!
He has forgiven you all your sins: Christ has utterly wiped out the damning evidence of broken laws and commandments which always hung over our heads, and has completely annulled it by nailing it over his own head on the cross. And then having drawn the sting of all the powers ranged against us, he exposed them, shattered, empty and defeated, in his final glorious triumphant act!
16-19 In view of these tremendous facts, don’t let anyone worry you by criticising what you eat or drink, or what holy days you ought to observe, or bothering you over new moons or sabbaths. All these things have at most only a symbolical value: the solid fact is Christ.
Nor let any man cheat you of your joy in Christ by persuading you to make yourselves “humble” and fall down and worship angels. Such a man, inflated by an unspiritual imagination, is pushing his way into matters he knows nothing about, and in his cleverness forgetting his head. It is from the head alone that the body, by natural channels, is nourished and built up and grows according to God’s laws of growth.
20-23 So if, through your faith in Christ, you are dead to the principles of this world’s life, why, as if you were still part and parcel of this world-wide system, do you take the slightest notice of these purely human prohibitions—“Don’t touch this,” “Don’t taste that” and “Don’t handle the other”? “This”, “that” and “the other” will all pass away after use!
I know that these regulations look wise with their self-inspired efforts at worship, their policy of self-humbling, and their studied neglect of the body. But in actual practice they do honour, not to God, but to man’s own pride. - Colossians 2, J.B. Phillips New Testament
While I’m on a roll, I’m an arminian. Not a calvinist. But when folks discuss predestination, free will and the details of who God saves us, we all are trying to describe something beyond our knowing! God is not an insect to be dissected on the table. Nor did God see fit to deliver us a Bible that reads like a Systematic Theology text, because theology - as taught in books - is a game.
True theology is knowing God, and no one who tries to dissect God has any clue about the nature of God. Only the extremely proud can pretend they can dissect the Creator of the Universe!
“There was a man in the country of Uz named Job. He was a man of perfect integrity, who feared God and turned away from evil.” - Job 1
“Then Job replied to the Lord:
I know that You can do anything
and no plan of Yours can be thwarted.
You asked, “Who is this who conceals My counsel with ignorance?”
Surely I spoke about things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
You said, “Listen now, and I will speak.
When I question you, you will inform Me.”
I had heard rumors about You,
but now my eyes have seen You.
Therefore I take back my words
and repent in dust and ashes.” - Job 42
“I had heard rumors about You,
but now my eyes have seen You.
Therefore I take back my words
and repent in dust and ashes.”
May we all respond like that!
Those people have no Trinity...The Catholics have a 4 person Quadrinity...Sheeeesh....
Rather, interpreting "she provided the Savior" and a Christ who owes His mother His His Precious Blood" through whose Marian merits we are saved, and such* as not indirectly saying she “is the source of salvation ” is your self-interpretation - as is Philsworld interpreting the Bible that Jesus is the archangel Michael and Iscool interpreting it that the Trinity does not exist. *"We are all debtors to God, but He is a debtor to you." And that "We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman" and who "had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin." and who is "all-powerful in saving sinners" "no one who can be saved or redeemed but through thee," "and therefore we have recourse, to thee alone," "we have but one advocate, and that is thyself, and thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation" and “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus" "when she acts, it is also He who acts; and that if her intervention be not accepted, neither is His..." “The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited." (Sources).
Trying to disallow Catholics as engaging in interpretations and ascribing to Mary attributes that are nowhere ascribed to any created being but only to God, and that largely parallel those of Christ, is a denial of reality. But Catholic are compelled to try, no matter how much such attempts provide an argument against being a Catholic.
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