Posted on 07/16/2018 8:14:05 AM PDT by Salvation
Has Rome rendered an official dogmatic position on the verses in question in 1 or 2 Timothy?
Thank you for the civil reply; I will get to it this evening after the marriage counseling session that I’m running. Lord willing.
“Till the last penny is paid.”
***
That verse... has nothing to do with penance at all.
I’m seeing some of that “snootiness” you described. ;o)
You know...if one is going to be snooty, at least have the facts to back you up! :)
If you want to suggest that we should always use one translation, such as NKJV, that would be helpful for mutual understanding, I think, and a step in the right direction. I would then re-enter the discussion and point out that the other words, like "works," "fruits," and "deeds," are still related to "repent", in such a way that we are enjoined to show forth the genuineness and power of this "repentance."
From the NKJV:
Matthew 3:8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance.Jesus said
Matthew 7:20
Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
If you bring forth these acts of repentance --- live a life showing the fruits of repentance --- it is a sign that your metanoia is sincere, and not just a passing sentiment.
This was the message of the Apostles on their Christ-sent mission:
Acts 26:20They took to heart, and acted upon, such godly instruction as this:
[I, Paul] declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
Jonah 3:8-10And this teaching about the works of repentance (above) is echoed in the following concerning the fruits of repentance:
But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
Here context is so important, and I don't want you to miss it. After Luke 13:3-5, Jesus then immediately explains about the required fruits in Luke 13:6-9
He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.So, what is the consequence of failing to do the works, perform the deeds, and bring for the fruits which show the genuineness of your "change of mind"? You will be cut down. Or, in the words of Revelation, your lampstand will be removed.Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’
But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.
And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’ ”
Revelation 2:5
Therefore, keep in mind
how far you have fallen.
Repent and perform the deeds you did at first.
But if you do not repent,
I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
If you will pay close attention to the context, you will see that genuine repentance necessarily comprises the works or fruits which manifest the sincerity of one's "change of mind." Then repentance or metanoia is not just a notional thing, a sentimental sad-making state. It is a decision: a decision that bears fruit.
Thus "repentance," "metanoia," always involves that unity or conformity of thought, word and deed, which is what is meant by "penitence" or "penance."
God bless you in running your marriage counseling session. You are doing the Lord’s work.
Doing penitential deeds was always part of the Jewish religious practice, so Jesus speaking Hebrew or Aramaic to His disciples would be understood in this Hebrew (not Greek) religious context.
It is important to understand that the connotations which attach to the Jewish (Hebrew or Aramaic) word would not be primarily punitive. That is exactly the point that the author of the article we are discussing (Charles Pope) makes, above"
That that the very issue being clarified in Pope's essay.
That would mean, I think, that we are in substantial greement.
However, that is not the version authorized at Trent. The DR is the official English version of the Vulgate for the Roman Catholic Church.
For you to say otherwise is to be in disagreement with your church.
It seems there's a lot of the reformers in a lot of Roman Catholics on these threads.
The NASB is the most literal translation of the Greek, outside of an interlinear we have. That would be the preferred text.
But before going forward we need to understand what repent in the Greek means.
3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").
We also need to evaluate the usage in context of the verse and the overall passage and the NT itself.
20Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.
21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22“Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
23“And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
24“Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”
Matthew 11:20-24 NASB
...“"repented in sackcloth and ashes” which would certainly indicate “"doing penance" along with a change of mind.
No. The text does not say it would "certainly indicate "doing penance" as understood in Roman Catholicism. You're practicing eisegesis....reading into the text something not there.
Jesus is condemning these cities because they are not repenting of their sins. The references to the day of judgment give an understanding of what He is saying.
These people were refusing to turn from their sins.
There is nothing to suggest the Roman Catholic concept of "penance" in these verses.
12“While so engaged as I was journeying to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests, 13at midday, O King, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining all around me and those who were journeying with me. 14“And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15“And I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16‘But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; 17rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’
19“So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. 21“For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death. 22“So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; 23that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.” Acts 26:12-23 NASB
Here again, Paul is recalling his witness to various people to repent and turn to God. The deeds, or works, he is talking about must be understood in the context of the NT.
What are the works of the Spirit? Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
The Roman Catholic concept of penance is not found in these passages.
Not as defined by Roman Catholicism.
When the woman was caught in adultery what did Jesus tell her?
Now go and sin no more, and say 50 Hail Mary's or read 20 verses in Exodus?
No. He plainly and simply said:
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them.
3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, 4they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. 5“Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?”
6They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. 7But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?”
11She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”] John 8:1-11 NASB
Scripture tells us Jesus gave authority to His Apostles but you make a huge presumption by asserting they could "automatically" conferred that same authority (Apostolic) to their successors. Scripture also tells us what the requirements were for being an Apostle. Do you know what those are?
Just so you know, the authority Jesus gave He gave to ALL Christians as it is one of the message of the gospel since it is the preaching of it that brings forgiveness of sins when one believes. No unbiblical NT "Priests" have any corner on that. Sorry to break it to you, but it is a myth that there is an "unbroken line of successors" from Peter to your religion's Popes. The truth of the gospel of the grace of God that brings salvation through faith and not on account of our good works, deeds, efforts, merits, etc. is what ALL believers are commissioned to preach to the entire world. The truth is found in God's sacred, divinely-inspired eternal Word given to us so that we can KNOW we have everlasting life.
Jesus paid it all. PTL!
Big presumption on your part. However, the NT is recorded in Greek for a reason.
It is important to understand that the connotations which attach to the Jewish (Hebrew or Aramaic) word would not be primarily punitive. That is exactly the point that the author of the article we are discussing (Charles Pope) makes, above".
The Jews had a lot of bad "traditions" they imposed on people which Jesus condemned their leaders for.
Rather than trying to work their "traditions" into the NT, their traditions need to be viewed in the context of the NT.
When done so a lot of Jewish "tradition" falls by the wayside.
And again....the NT was written in Greek for a reason. That is the text we have to go by.
And we know some Roman Catholics, a number on these threads, don't recognize the current pope as legit.
Some even claim the "papacy" has been vacant since 1958.
That'd be a decent gap in a string of "apostolic succession".
How many protestants have ever confessed a sin? If it’s once saved, always saved, what difference does it make?
Hopefully everyday.
We confess our sins as noted in the Lord's Prayer and we also forgive those who've sinned against us.
9“Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10‘Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11‘Give us this day our daily bread. 12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’] 14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions. Matthew 6:9-14 NASB
We confess our sins to Him because the Word tells us if we do confess He will forgive.
Sorry...I didn't directly address this.
Every believer in Christ has confessed he/she is a sinner. That is what repentance is about. Turning away from the former sinful life to a new life in Christ.
You've hopefully read the thread so you know the meaning of the word.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.