Posted on 07/16/2018 8:14:05 AM PDT by Salvation
Why would you think they’ve been to Confession? It seems to me that they are examples of impenitence, not penitence. You can match Protestants and Catholics here, with pret-near one-for-one correspondence. Which is a shaming and painful thought all around.
That's the Douay Rheims translation.
Of all the major translations it is the only one to render the passage in that manner.
The Greek word the DR has rendered as penance is the Greek verb μετανοῆτε (μετανοέω).
3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").
It has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic concept of penance.
This is another example of a bad translation in the DR leading to an incorrect theology.
How many times have we seen this in Roman Catholicism? Too many sadly.
But again, this has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic concept of penance.
I've posted the passage for context. A cursory reading of the text does not find the RC notion of penance in the text.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8“Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10“The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12“His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:7-12 NASB
And then I'm told that, no matter what Scripture says, and no matter what I say, this "has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic concept of penance."
I am always interested to hear your thoughts, your beliefs, your practices.
What I can't abide is *YOU* telling *ME* what *I* think.
It turns out it doesn't matter what Scripture says, or what the actual Catholic in the conversation says. It's all a back-and-forth between what *you* think, and what *you* think I think.
That's you, a red checker in one had and a black one in the other, moving the pieces on both sides of the checkers board. It's not a dialogue, it's a monologue. You can do that by yourself. You don't need me.
Give me a break.
Again, you're not engaging with what I said, but what you wish I had said, or think I ought to have said.
My reasoning is not dependent on a word or two tweezed from the DR, nor is yours from Bezae (1598) or something equally antique.
This line of palaver is tendentious --- and so tedious.
The GREEK that the New Testament was written in has no word for penance.
Ealgeone has shown you the Greek and its true meaning and yet you cling to the bad translation of the Duoay-Rheims.
Why?
Why is the Greek not good enough for you and why is a bad translation of the Greek what you appal to?
I wonder how he would explain the purpose of "Indulgences", then? Martin Luther grew to detest the practice because he saw that too many people wanted to avoid the consequence/punishment for their sins instead of realizing the benefit of it in teaching them to hate their sin and forsake it.
I do agree that we only learn genuine gratitude for God's grace and mercy when we truthfully face our own brokenness.
You’re really attributing motive there.
I read back through his comments to you on this thread and found nowhere where he told you what you think.
Perhaps I missed it. Could you give us the post number where that happened?
The fruit of repentance is shown in a Chirstlike life being lived out as one forsakes sin.
It is NOT saying the required amount of prayers and rosaries to show how sorry you are for your sin, and that you absolution and forgiveness is not complete until you do it.
Confession, in Scriptural terms, means to "name it as He names it". No sugar-coating, no excuses, no rationalizations. Coming clean!
A few take it even further and assert that ONLY "their" priests have Apostolic authority to grant absolution so the rest of us are out of luck! Same for receiving the Lord's Supper observance. I'm so glad that our heavenly father doesn't play such games.
You don’t have the word “repent” in your Bible??
Strange, it’s in the Catholic Bible multiple times. Repent and penance go together — same root word — as far as I know.
“Till the last penny is paid.”
But you aren’t the judge. God is the judge.
Except you did not quote Luke 13:3 from the Berean or RKJV as they do not render the passage as you posted.
What you posted for Luke 13:3
No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.
**********
Luke 13:3
Berean Study Bible No, I tell you. But unless you repent,, you too will all perish.
Berean Literal Bible No, I say to you; but unless you repent,, you will all perish likewise.
King James Bible I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent,, ye shall all likewise perish.
RKJV I tell you, no; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
****************
I did not see the translation you used noted in any of the verses you posted.
I cited the Douay-Rheims as it is a translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into English made by members of the English College, Douai, in the service of the Catholic Church. If I am not mistaken the Vulgate is THE official Latin version of the Bible as determined at Trent.
Moreover, the same sacred and holy Synod,—considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,—ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many ages, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever. http://www.bible-researcher.com/trent1.html
If that has changed, please let me know.
Of the major translations, only Douay Rheims renders the word in question in both Luke 13:3 and Matthew 3:8 as penance.
My reasoning is not dependent on a word or two tweezed from the DR, nor is yours from Bezae (1598) or something equally antique.
My exegesis of the passages is based on the NT Greek. You cannot make that claim. A "word or two tweezed" as you call them does make all the difference as has been demonstrated.
You used a Latin word for your post as it fits more with Roman Catholic theology vs how it is rendered in the Greek. These "tweezed" words as you like to call them make a HUGE difference in the exegesis of the passages in question.
I think the Latin “agite paenitentiam” (do penance) is a fuller expression of "metanoia" (change of mind) because inward "metanoia" (remorse) --- if it is real, and not just a sentiment--- will indeed express itself actively in your life, not just in your feelings.
Again, you're not engaging with what I said, but what you wish I had said, or think I ought to have said.
Beg to differ. I have dealt precisely with what you have said by providing the NT Greek definition of the word we are discussing. What you don't like is the contradiction of your position by the Greek.
OK. I'm told there's no Scriptural support for works of penance. I provide multiple Scriptural verses talking about precisely these "works," "fruits," and "deeds", and my thoughts about what this means.
No. You pulled verses out of context with a poor translation of the word in question in an attempt to support your position. Works, fruits, deeds, are not penance nor are they equated with repent either. They are the evidence of the person who has repented and come to faith in Christ....they are not punishment for sins nor needs one has to do for forgiveness.
And then I'm told that, no matter what Scripture says, and no matter what I say, this "has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic concept of penance."
Because the verses you cited, if read in context which is key to a proper exegesis of the Scriptures, do not support the Roman Catholic position on penance....nor does the NT.
What I can't abide is *YOU* telling *ME* what *I* think.
I've not told you what you think. I noted what Roman Catholicism teaches.
This line of palaver is tendentious --- and so tedious.
Perhaps if you'd research the NT Greek meaning of the words we are discussing as much as you do with your little retorts these discussions wouldn't be so tendentious.
Another example is with the word "righteousness". In Titus 3:5, we read:
The Douay-Rheims has it:
The DR, I think, misses the mark completely and loses the point that our own works of righteousness cannot save us.
Didn’t Christ give that authority to the Apostles in the Bible?
“Loose or bind”
That authority is passed down generation to generation from the Apostles, the first Bishops, to the priests they ordained. You have read 1 and 2 Timothy, haven’t you?
In the two verses posted by mrs.d, the Douay Rheims does not render the word in question as repent....it uses penance. There is no NT Greek word for penance.
Strange, it’s in the Catholic Bible multiple times. Repent and penance go together — same root word — as far as I know.
You might want to check that.
Apparently the DR doesn't use the word repent that much. I find only five verses using "repent" in the NT for the DR....13 in the OT including the Apocrypha....at total of 18 verses.
I find 66 verses that use penance in the DR in both OT (9) and NT (57).
Word search using logos bible software for "penance" or "repent", Douay-Rheims Bible.
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