The Difference Between Penance and Punishment

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 07-15-18 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Salvation]

Video

[Salvation]

Monsignor Pope Ping!

[Luircin]

This article has a lot to chew on and I think some good thoughts that can be discussed. I really liked the commentary on brokenness, not to mention experienced it myself.

The main disagreement that I have is not actually addressed. So here goes.

Penance is not actually found in Scripture; it comes from an unfortunate problem with the translation from Greek to Latin. In Latin, the word means to do an action, and so comes across as ‘do penance and believe the Gospel.’

In the Greek, the word used does not have works associated with it; the translation of ‘repent and believe the Gospel’ instead means a change of mind and a change of heart, and works then come after that.

Having said that, however, it’s still a good idea to A: Try to put things right if your sin has hurt another person, and B: Subject yourself to self-discipline in order to try to make sure that the sin doesn’t happen again. Even in the Lutheran circles which are so maligned as being a fount of easy-believism, the pastor who hears a confession and pronounces forgiveness for the repentant soul should still be working with that person in order to ensure that the sin being confessed of is dealt with in the future.

I just think that the Msgr. is facing the issue of putting the cart before the horse. In Scripture; the Lord forgives you of your sin the moment you repent, but a truly repentant heart will try to make it right or work on personal self-discipline as a result of that forgiveness. There’s no need for a works-based token of repentance beforehand.

[ealgeone]

Even in the Lutheran circles which are so maligned as being a fount of easy-believism,...

And how many Roman Catholics commit "venial/mortal" sins, go to the priest, confess, say a few Hail Mary's and think they're good to go and turn around and do so again and again and again?

[ealgeone]

Penance is not actually found in Scripture; it comes from an unfortunate problem with the translation from Greek to Latin. In Latin, the word means to do an action, and so comes across as ‘do penance and believe the Gospel.’

In the Greek, the word used does not have works associated with it; the translation of ‘repent and believe the Gospel’ instead means a change of mind and a change of heart, and works then come after that.

************************

Hence the need to study the original languages.

[Luircin]

I don’t know.

I hope very few, but at the same time we’ve seen in the past how easily people are willing to grab a license to sin.

[ealgeone]

In the Greek, the word used does not have works associated with it; the translation of ‘repent and believe the Gospel’ instead means a change of mind and a change of heart, and works then come after that.

****************

For those interested. Repent is bolded with definition provided at the end.

μετανοεῖτε καὶ πιστεύετε ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ.

Repent and believe in the Gospel.

3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").

http://biblehub.com/greek/3340.htm

[Salvation]

But with the Sacrament of Penance/Confession/Reconciliation, the Lord FPRGETS our sins. Big advantage.

[Salvation]

Oops,

But with the Sacrament of Penance/Confession/Reconciliation, the Lord FORGETS our sins. Big advantage.

[Luircin]

And you get in Scripture that you have to do penance... where?

Confession I get. And you know, we heathen Lutherans do that too. And absolution. As the Apostle John says: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

But penance? Where d’you find that?

[ealgeone]

But with the Sacrament of Penance/Confession/Reconciliation, the Lord FPRGETS our sins. Big advantage.

Already taken care of at the Cross

9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Colossians 2:9-14 NASB

[Luircin]

Confessing our sins is very important to the Christian life. First because it makes us realize how much we need a savior. Second, simply because Scripture tells us to do so.

The problem comes when it gets turned into a work that has to be done in order to have salvation, when the Apostle says that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works.

I’ve heard Catholics who have told me in snooty voices, “Unlike you, I’VE gone to Confession and gotten my sins forgiven!” Like they’ve done something really great that us lesser mortals can only aspire to. That’s the exact opposite of what the Lord teaches!

[metmom]

Scripture does not teach penance.

It teaches repentance, which is not the same thing.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"And how many Roman Catholics commit "venial/mortal" sins, go to the priest, confess, say a few Hail Mary's and think they're good to go and turn around and do so again and again and again?"

Is that a real question?

If so, the answer is: as far as I know, few --- if any.

[Luircin]

If so, the answer is: as far as I know, few -— if any.

***

I’ve met a few. Read about more than that.

And of course, every Democrat in Congress who claims to be Catholic is a shining example.

[ealgeone]

Yes. It's a real question.

I see Roman Catholics commit a number of sins on these threads every day.

[metmom]

No, when we CONFESS our sins He forgives them and no penance is required.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[metmom]

Luke 18:9-14

9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed[a] thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

[Mrs. Don-o]

Hi, Luircin. I enjoy your posts.

I think the Latin “agite paenitentiam” (do penance) is a fuller expression of "metanoia" (change of mind) because inward "metanoia" (remorse) --- if it is real, and not just a sentiment--- will indeed express itself actively in your life, not just in your feelings.

Just as there is a difference, according to James, between dead faith (w/out works) and a living, saving faith, there is a difference between an emotion of remorse, and a lived expression of true penitence.

Thinking about penance in Scripture, I find this:

Matthew 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance.

Jesus said "By their fruits you shall know them." If you bring forth these acts of penance --- live a life showing the fruits of penitence --- it is a sign that your metanoia is sincere, and not just a passing sentiment.

This was the message of the Apostles on their Christ-sent mission:

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance.

I think they took to heart, and acted upon, such godly instruction as this:

"Jonah 3:8-10
But let man and beast
be covered with sackcloth,
and cry mightily to God
yes, let every one turn
from his evil way
and from the violence that is in his hands.

Who can tell
if God will turn and relent,
and turn away from His fierce anger,
so that we may not perish?

Then God saw their works,
that they turned from their evil way;
and God relented from the disaster
that He had said He would bring upon them,
and He did not do it.

And this certainly extends into the New Testament:

Luke 13:3
No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

What is the consequence of failing to do the works which show the genuineness of your "change of mind"?

Revelation 2:5
Therefore, keep in mind
how far you have fallen.
Repent and perform the deeds you did at first.
But if you do not repent,
I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Scripture itself tells us that God called for "fruits" and "deeds" and "worthy works" from us, which flow from the sincerity of a turned-around mind. There's much more, but I offer you a thought-provoking sample.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You and me both.