Posted on 04/05/2015 1:59:53 PM PDT by NYer
Except that the Holy Spirit did not get the memo, or think it was important or fitting to mention that or even engage in lesser ascriptions to Mary, to whom Catholics ascribe things which belong to Christ.
Some one posted here on Staples "The Immaculate Conception in Scripture," and below is part of my response here , by God grace.
For making her the Ark is thinking of morals above that which is written, and is another attempt to add to the word of God, and glorify the creature rather than the Creator, God blessed for ever, as it is Christ who best fulfills the typology of the ark of the Covenant.
• God commanded Moses to “make an ark of shittim wood,” which wood represents the humanity of Christ, “And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it,” (Ex. 25:10,11) and which gold can be seen to glory. And thus the wise men brought gold as a gift to Christ (not Mary), and was girded about His loins and breast with a golden garment, (Dan. 10:5; Rv. 1:13) which also is never said of Mary.
• The Ark, once made, was moved via poles, so as not to be directly touched by sinful man (Ex. 25:12-16; II Sam. 6:1-9), yet which men Mary was touched by, as well as Christ. And the former was ritually defiled by giving birth, and thus observed the required days of purification, (Lk. 2:22-24; cf. Lv. 12:2,6-8) and then brought the required living creatures to the priest “for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the Lord, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood.” (Leviticus 12:6,7)
But the sanctity of the Ark corresponds to the spiritual purity of Christ, who being the Lamb of God is alone said to be “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens,” (Hebrews 7:26) “Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth,” (1 Peter 2:22) “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)
Which is never said of Mary. Yet Catholics have the audacity to make Mary was sinless, even as binding doctrine, when Scripture nowhere teaches it, and we can be confident that it would say so if that was true, and especially if was a binding doctrine, just as it clearly records the sinlessness of Christ and other extraordinary or otherwise notable aspects of its subjects, even far lesser ones.
• And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold....And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end:...And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims (Exodus 25:17,19,22) On top of the ark was the mercy seat on which rested the cloud signifying the presence of God, between two cherubs of gold. The Greek word (Hebrews 9:5) for “mercy seat” is hilasterion, meaning “that which makes atonement.”
This easily corresponds to Matthew 17:4,5, in which Moses and Elijah, representing the the law and the prophets, can be seen to answer to the two cherubims, and who talk with Christ under a bright cloud, and in which context all are called to commune with Christ, the atonement: “While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him,” thus directly communing with God. (cf. Heb. 10:19) And which is said to Peter, James and John, whom Paul later states (Gal. 2:9) appeared to be pillars of the church (if not in that order), thus this call to directly commune with God via the mercy seat under the cloud is to the church.
• “And in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.” (Exodus 25:21)The Ark contained the 2 tables of the Law, which testimony in the NT becomes grace and Truth, and the Scriptures uniquely state Christ was “full of grace and Truth.” (Jn. 1:14) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (Jn 1:17)
• And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it. (Joshua 3:3) And it was Christ, not Mary, who said “Follow me,” (Mt. 4:19) and “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me,” (John 10:27) as Christ alone was God manifest in the flesh. (Jn. 1:1-3,14; 20:28; 1Tim. 3:16)
• “And the ark of the covenant of the Lord went before them in the three days' journey, to search out a resting place for them.” (Numbers 10:33) And only Christ, not Mary spent 3 days in the grave and then went to, I "to prepare a place for you.” (John 14:2)
Therefore it is Christ, not Mary who is clothed with gold, and declared to be undefiled, sinless, and the atonement/mercy seat, with two cherubs of glory on each side, by whom believers commune with God under the cloud of glory, and whom constrains the testimony of grace and Truth, and goes before believers.
And thus by God grace Staples compulsion of Scripture to support vain traditions of men is once again exposed, which he inventively adds to within the rest of his book (which is not dealt with here), promoting the Mariolatry of the false Mary of Catholicism, thinking of mortals above that which is written, (1Cor. 4:6) to his own condemnation and those who sadly subscribe to this. It is the Lord who is high and lifted up, not any Queen of Heaven, which is only found among pagans. But despite what Scripture says and fails to say, like the Catholics insist,
“But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem...” (Jeremiah 44:17)
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I believe the word of God as it was originally written, not as men have chosen to change it.
Ideas like God having a mother were alien to the apostles, who held to what Yeshua told them, and did what he commanded to be done.
Your true God and true man slogan lacks relevance to the question. God, the Father and the Son exist eternally, outside of the material universe, and are in no way dependent on their creation. They do not have a mother.
All created beings that exist in the realm of God are like the angels: they do not reproduce; they do not have biological attributes; they do not marry, and are all of the masculine gender.
All humans that are allowed to enter that realm will be just like that; that is what the word of God says.
You think my posts are unique because they always reject ideas that come from the mind of men.
You apparently were raised in the catholic church. That corporation was made entirely by the mind of man, as every other corporate church on Earth was. It structures itself with doctrines and creeds, but doctrines and creeds are all shaped by men. They slyly slip in man’s leaven with bits and pieces ripped out of Gods word to make something that is comfortable to the mind of man.
The shock of Matthew chapter 7 is what happens when man’s doctrines and creeds come up against the will of the Father. It is a warning to all of us to examine our creed in light of the will of the Father. The will of the Father is most clearly presented in the ancient Tanakh (Old Testament, in the parlance of the Churchians).
It can also be found in the writings of John, Paul, Peter, and James, if they are read without throwing out the uncomfortable parts.
Peter’s second epistle, and John’s first epistle, are loaded with stuff that the easy believers want to ‘explain’ away. Paul’s epistles also have the same message, but entwined with long, complex sentences, with which, as Peter says, men ‘wrest’ to their own destruction.
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No, and Staples hardly warrants reading a whole book on more of his his specious arguments, which have been refuted time and again here, as here and here , and here for examples.
I also countered him on his own blog, but after he would not let me respond to his own reply.
Rather, it is quite the opposite, as in reality a faithful RC is not to seek to ascertain the veracity of RC teaching by examination of evidences (for that reason). For to do so would be to doubt the claims of Rome to be the assuredly infallible magisterium by which a RC obtains assurance of Truth.
You can only be sure that purported Marian miracles are of God is that is the conclusion of your church, "The mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true. ” — Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism)
You may appeal to evidence in seeking to persuade us, as we should go where ever the Truth leads, but when RC attempts fail then the RC recourse is to assert that one must submit to the church of Rome to know what Truth is.
In this case i certainly can agree that evidence may warrant believing that some miracles happened at Lourdes, and likewise in other religions. read "New Age Medicine " ($4.00) by two Christian doctors investigating of cases in S. America and you may realize how the devil can do miracles (video ), and even the 1st 3 miracles of Moses were duplicated by the magicians.
But miracles themselves are not determinative of what is the source, but Scripture must be the supreme authority, as if was with the beginning of the church. And which does not even example or teach praying to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord, even though prayer is the most ubiquitous spiritual activity mentioned in Scripture.
Nor are multitude others things ascribed to the Mary of Catholicism , nor is any one even crowned until the Lord returns.
Well stated! I tend to think ANYTHING that diverts the glory away from Christ is wrong. Especially in the end times this will become more and more evident though it has always been around.
And I’ll ask you to not presume our minds are closed and our hearts are hardened. You aren’t God...remember?
You know that admitting your wrong goes both ways, when was the last time you admitted an error?
If Mary can in any way be compared to the original one, it would only possibly apply for the nine months in which she carried the incarnate God. After she delivered Him, she ceased even being that. All these ascriptions to Mary that we ceaselessly argue about can be settled by the simple realization, like you said, that the Holy Spirit would have made such known if it was necessary to be believed.
It also strikes me as disingenuous for Catholics to post these kinds of threads in an OPEN Religion Forum when they already know they are inviting contrary opinions and then to gripe and complain and label everyone who disagrees with them as "anti-Catholics" making fools of themselves. Not very honorable.
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You don’t believe. That sums it up.
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“You’d think people would grow up and stop “playing the dozens” -they’re really doing it to Jesus.”
They just don’t seem to get that at all.
Who cares what Dionysius believed??? Sounds like he was the heretic...
I did not mean to say that God existed in different forms or modes, so I don’t think my error was Modalism, but I was in error in putting the Three Persons not distinct from each other. I don’t know if that error has a name or not.
I think I would have been correct if I had said they are “all the same Being and always have been”, but I have a tendency to equate ‘person’ and ‘being’. That works with humans, but not so well with God.
I should have gone back to the catechism to be sure I had it right. What I was trying to say was:
‘The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God.”’
Although “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.”
And “Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.”
All of which reinforce to me that the concept is a mystery and our brains cannot really make logical sense of it.
Thanks for making me do my homework.
Love,
O2
Believe as you choose, that's very imaginative; sounds a bit "new-age." What do you or your source that does not "come from the mind of men" call it?
Yes, I'm Roman Catholic:
The Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died,
and was buried.
He descended into hell; the third day He arose again
from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of
God the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.
And “Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.”
All of which reinforce to me that the concept is a mystery and our brains cannot really make logical sense of it.
It's all the same thing...
If your first paragraph here is true, the second paragraph can not be true...
Joh_10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh_14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
God is separately all three, yet God is one...But one of the things that is disgusting; sickening is that your religion has murdered countless numbers of people who didn't believe exactly as your religion does...
Meaning that she would be honored for her past instrumentality, but which instrument she was blessed to be, yet it is not said or evidenced that this was because she was more holy than any other saint, as Caths say she was. Nor is anything said of her exceeding in virtue, power or laboring more, as the Spirit describes such men and Moses as doing. RCs even hold that she has no pain in childbirth.
Nor is she described as the antitype of Eve, in overcoming the 3 basic temptations that Eve succumbed to, and which Christ overcame, or being a special intercessor for others, or was a perpetually sinless virgin. Etc. All of which is extrapolated by Caths based upon the premise that being a mother for Christ basically makes anything less unthinkable.
The psychological power of a heavenly mother and queen is powerful, but which is unique to paganism, while what Scripture reveals about Mary and her position suffices for God and should for us. Which is that she was a holy, humble, pious spiritual God-fearing worshipping women of faith who only prayed to God (unlike her Catholic devotees of the foreign Mary of Catholicism).
And (contrary to the atheists who charge God with being a cosmic rapist, whom i contended against by God's grace), considered being the mother of the Messiah a great blessing of the grace of God, and which she beautifully expressed in her Spirit-filled magnificant.
And which much parallels that of Hannah's praise, who also had a miraculous pregnancy, but not as a virgin, while in Luke the worship of Mary is followed by that of Zechariah. And with Simeon and Anna in cp. 2, we have a lot of people in Luke 1+2 we should imitate more.
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Mary |
Hannah |
Zacharias |
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And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. (Luke 1:46-55) |
And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the Lord, mine horn is exalted in the Lord: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation. There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the Lord is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed. The bows of the mighty men are broken, and they that stumbled are girded with strength. They that were full have hired out themselves for bread; and they that were hungry ceased: so that the barren hath born seven; and she that hath many children is waxed feeble. The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. The Lord maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them. He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the Lord shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed. (1 Samuel 2:1-10) |
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. (Luke 1:67-79) |
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>> Who are “they”? <<
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Not who, what!
“They” are the posts that you asked about.
Read much?
It is hard to answer a question if the questioner won’t keep his concentration.
If you now re-read the post with that simple point in mind, perhaps some communication will occur.
My ideas come solely from the Word of God.
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It didn't stop others from voicing their suspicion that there were - like I said. I don't think any Protestant would bother trying to pull off that kind of charade. Some FRoman Catholics, on the other hand, do a good enough job on their own of giving their religion a bad name by their constant badgering, insulting and provoking of those who disagree with them. That doorstep is mighty dusty!
"It is hard to answer a question if the questioner won’t keep his concentration."
So Christlike...
Lose the dots; get some manners. End of pointless discussion.
May God bless you and help you on your journey through life. Whatever it is you believe, may you truly find Him. May He open your mind and your heart and give you peace. Amen.
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