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To: Claud

Your statement deals with “after grace has been received”, not before.

Whether people are foreordained to evil or not is not the topic. The Council of Orange is clear that man has no ability to save himself apart from God’s grace. This view was changed by the Catholics as well as many Evangelicals.


14 posted on 02/03/2015 3:39:40 PM PST by HarleyD ("... letters are weighty, but his .. presence is weak, and his speech of no account.")
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To: HarleyD
The Council of Orange is clear that man has no ability to save himself apart from God’s grace. This view was changed by the Catholics as well as many Evangelicals.

Changed? Really now? Then pray tell, explain Trent's first three Canons on Justification:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

You have convinced yourselves that we changed because your eccelesial situation and the fate of your souls depend on it. But we didn't. And we won't. What the Church believed then we believe now.

15 posted on 02/04/2015 4:48:06 AM PST by Claud
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