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To: NYer
One can look to the Scriptures to see that the Lord deliberately founded a living Church built on his Apostles in order that his teachings and sacraments would continue down through time.

This is wrong.
It is wrong because Jesus did not found his church on flesh and blood (the Apostles or Peter) but on Truth, namely a Spiritual truth, and in fact the biggest Truth there is:

(Matthew 16:15-18)
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

The rock that Jesus is referring to there isn't Peter, a flawed man who still would deny Jesus three times, but that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.

Peter's denial is actually quite relevant because Paul in 2 Tim 2:13 says If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. and if the Church were founded on Peter who denied Jesus then that would literally be part of the church's constitution — but it is not, it is that Jesus really is who he said he was and that, because of that, can do what he says he can.

3 posted on 11/09/2014 3:27:06 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

Wrong. There is one authority given exclusively to Peter and his successors. This is how the early Church fathers understood this. This was the same authority they used to put together the books in the Bible. They did not fall from the skies. They were sorted out after years of study, discussion, debate, and then by final authority of the successor to Peter as the “Word of God.”


10 posted on 11/09/2014 3:49:24 PM PST by Steelfish (ui)
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To: OneWingedShark

“....a flawed man who still would deny Jesus three times....”

.
Sheesh, I wish I were as flawed as Peter who, in the end, was willing to be crucified upside down for the Lord.

And talking about denying Christ three times, I know I have done it many more times than that.


14 posted on 11/09/2014 4:00:30 PM PST by 353FMG
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To: OneWingedShark
The rock that Jesus is referring to there isn't Peter, a flawed man who still would deny Jesus three times, but that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.

There is ample evidence in the New Testament that Peter was first in authority among the apostles. Whenever they were named, Peter headed the list (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13); sometimes the apostles were referred to as "Peter and those who were with him" (Luke 9:32).

Peter’s preeminent position among the apostles was symbolized at the very beginning of his relationship with Christ. At their first meeting, Christ told Simon that his name would thereafter be Peter, which translates as "Rock" (John 1:42). The startling thing was that—aside from the single time that Abraham is called a "rock" (Hebrew: Tsur; Aramaic: Kepha) in Isaiah 51:1-2—in the Old Testament only God was called a rock. The word rock was not used as a proper name in the ancient world. If you were to turn to a companion and say, "From now on your name is Asparagus," people would wonder: Why Asparagus? What is the meaning of it? What does it signify? Indeed, why call Simon the fisherman "Rock"? Christ was not given to meaningless gestures, and neither were the Jews as a whole when it came to names. Giving a new name meant that the status of the person was changed, as when Abram’s name was changed to Abraham (Gen.17:5), Jacob’s to Israel (Gen. 32:28), Eliakim’s to Joakim (2 Kgs. 23:34), or the names of the four Hebrew youths—Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah to Belteshazzar, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (Dan. 1:6-7). But no Jew had ever been called "Rock."

Not only was there significance in Simon being given a new and unusual name, but the place where Jesus solemnly conferred it upon Peter was also important. It happened when "Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi" (Matt. 16:13), a city that Philip the Tetrarch built and named in honor of Caesar Augustus, who had died in A.D. 14. The city lay near cascades in the Jordan River and near a gigantic wall of rock, a wall about 200 feet high and 500 feet long, which is part of the southern foothills of Mount Hermon. The city no longer exists, but its ruins are near the small Arab town of Banias; and at the base of the rock wall may be found what is left of one of the springs that fed the Jordan. It was here that Jesus pointed to Simon and said, "You are Peter" (Matt. 16:18).

The significance of the event must have been clear to the other apostles. As devout Jews they knew at once that the location was meant to emphasize the importance of what was being done. None complained of Simon being singled out for this honor; and in the rest of the New Testament he is called by his new name, while James and John remain just James and John, not Boanerges.

When he first saw Simon, "Jesus looked at him, and said, ‘So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas (which means Peter)’" (John 1:42). The word Cephas is merely the transliteration of the Aramaic Kepha into Greek. Later, after Peter and the other disciples had been with Christ for some time, they went to Caesarea Philippi, where Peter made his profession of faith: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16:16). Jesus told him that this truth was specially revealed to him, and then he solemnly reiterated: "And I tell you, you are Peter" (Matt. 16:18). To this was added the promise that the Church would be founded, in some way, on Peter (Matt. 16:18).

Then two important things were told the apostle. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:19). Here Peter was singled out for the authority that provides for the forgiveness of sins and the making of disciplinary rules. Later the apostles as a whole would be given similar power [Matt.18:18], but here Peter received it in a special sense.

Peter alone was promised something else also: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 16:19). In ancient times, keys were the hallmark of authority. A walled city might have one great gate; and that gate had one great lock, worked by one great key. To be given the key to the city—an honor that exists even today, though its import is lost—meant to be given free access to and authority over the city. The city to which Peter was given the keys was the heavenly city itself. This symbolism for authority is used elsewhere in the Bible (Is. 22:22, Rev. 1:18).

21 posted on 11/09/2014 4:12:11 PM PST by NYer ("You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears." James 4:14)
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To: OneWingedShark

You ar4e wrong.


26 posted on 11/09/2014 4:27:06 PM PST by verga (You anger Catholics by telling them a lie, you anger protestants by telling them the truth.)
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To: OneWingedShark

“This is wrong.”

Nope. Even many Protestant scholars don’t agree with you.

D. A. Carson:

... on the basis of the distinction between “petros” and “petra,” many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere “stone,” it is alleged, but Jesus himself is the “rock,” as Peter himself attests (1 Peter 2:5-8). Others adopt some other distinction: e.g. “upon this rock of revealed truth- this truth you have just confessed- I will build my church.” Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken “rock” to mean anything but Peter.
... Had Matthew wanted to say no more than Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been “lithos” (”stone” of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun- and that is just the point!

Oscar Cullman:

... the parallelism of “thou art rock” and “upon this rock I will build” shows that the second rock can only be referring to the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter ... to be the foundation of his “ecclesia.” To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.


30 posted on 11/09/2014 4:39:15 PM PST by vladimir998
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