Posted on 05/02/2014 1:49:13 PM PDT by Pyro7480
The other day I took a funeral for Arthur– one of our WWII vets. He was a sweet, faithful and good Catholic gentleman and a decorated WWII pilot.
At the graveside a couple of Marines were present in their dress uniforms for the flag ceremony. They stood tall with shoes shined and hat brims low. After the Catholic ceremony one soldier stood at attention while the other bugled “Taps”. Then he stepped forward, smart and correct. They took the flag and folded it into the famous triangle and handed it to the widow with the set formula of words. It was a powerful and moving ceremony.
I thought afterwards how happy most people are to have the soldiers there in their dress uniform. They are drilled and correct and their personalities are subsumed by the ceremony they offer. Nobody has a problem.
Why then do so many people make a fuss over a Catholic priest wearing the correct uniform, mastering the ceremony and delivering the ritual at Mass. So I hear dull utilitarians say, “Why does that priest have to wear all those fancy clothes? Doesn’t he know Jesus was a carpenter?”....What if those comments were to be transferred to the Marines doing the flag ceremony?...
...This is why when people criticize the Catholic liturgy, vestments, ritual or ceremony they only reveal how little they know about the beautiful, mystifying and moving ceremonies of life. People not only love ritual and ceremony. They need it. Some part of us communicates deeply through the language, gestures and ritual of liturgy. There is a secret place in the human heart that longs to worship, and beauty is the language of worship.
Take that away and we are an impoverished people....
(Excerpt) Read more at patheos.com ...
Catholic ping!
Our Marine son recently was honored to present the flag to the family of a vet of Iwo Jima, Peleliu, Korea and Viet Nam. He’s done a lot of funeral details, but that was his first presentation.
Take that away and we are an impoverished people....
...take that away, and we have the Novus Ordo liturgy...
I do not need pomp in a church. Some of the best services I have attended had men dressed in short sleeves and dressier pants. In fact, as I look over the churches I went to as a kid and even now, the ministers did not have a suit on. I now wonder if they even had one. That did not take anything away from the service. If they teach the Bible , I do not think God cares. Some put on airs, but do not act like Christians the rest of the week. As a child, I even attended a few brush arbor services and no one dressed up. God sees what is in your heart and not the clothes.
I don’t know that you got the connection with the military uniform, which wouldn’t be analogic in a church where ministers don’t wear a distinctive outfit. A Catholic priest’s vestments aren’t necessarily fancy. (The “Victorian window treatment” look isn’t what impresses me, either ;-).
He might wear a plain black robe, or (my parish priest) a white slip with a colored gown over it. Father Ho Lung wears a simple white robe with a blue sash. However, regardless of the individual style, each piece has a historical and symbolic relevance.
When my father - a 32-year Navy veteran - is buried, I’ll expect the honor guard to be in military uniforms. When my sons receive their Eagle Scout awards, the presenters and many attendees are in Scout uniforms. It’s not about showing personal taste or economic status, but about the participants in a ceremony, of whatever kind, wearing the ceremonial “uniform.”
“I do not need pomp in a church.”
God apparently likes it. He set it up that way twice. I’ll just learn to like what He wants.
Of course I understand military uniforms at military funerals. That is entirely different than what ministers wear. There is nothing sadder than TAPS played at one. I just do not think ministers need to wear anything other than normal clothes.
Where is the Bible is that found? I doubt if Jesus wore clothes like that when He was teaching.
Bah!
People not only love ritual and ceremony. They need it.
No, they don't.
Some part of us communicates deeply through the language, gestures and ritual of liturgy.
Rather, it distracts from worship... Or at least it certainly does distract me. I find it abhorrent.
There is a secret place in the human heart that longs to worship, and beauty is the language of worship.
Right... Here's a cathedral:
Go there for a week long fast and all these rites and trinkets, pomp and circumstance lose all meaning whatsoever. Entirely.
Take that away and we are an impoverished people....
Quite the opposite is true - Taking them away will only let you know just how impoverished you have been.
There are different ways of looking at a church service. “Gathering of believers” is one, and that doesn’t necessarily correlate with distinctive clothing. “Ceremony” is a different view, and that does imply a “uniform,” whether it’s “military ceremony,” “graduation ceremony,” or “Scouting ceremony.”
Faculty robes at a college commencement are floofy beyond all but the most ancient Catholic or Orthodox Church liturgies, although not as bejeweled as the latter. Did you know that the official color for Engineering graduates is hunter-safety orange?
Ecumenical threads are closed to antagonism.
A gathering of believers is what I think. I stated that I had attended a few brush arbor services as a kid. No one dressed up for those in hot MS in July/August. We used common sense. I did a little research on the Catholic clothes. Every site I went to said that was from left over pagan rituals. I read Ex. 28:2 about the clothes made. But, Jesus did not dress that way.
But, but, but... Jesus said...
Matthew 6: 1 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Thanks for posting that. Beautiful.
I don't know where the anti-Catholic minimalist impulse comes from. I guess any club to beat the Church will do.
But Christians should remember that besides being One, Good, True, and Being Itself, God is Beauty Itself.
Beautiful worship is fitting and proper. And we can see reflections of that in the adornment of the Temple and in Revelation.
I think that is awesome. My late husband bass fished a lot. He kept telling us how he enjoyed God’s artwork. We did not understand until we went fishing with him. Night fishing was the best when we could really see the stars. It WAS awesome. I would have scared away every fish if I had broken out with, How Great Thou Art and he would have been disgusted.
That's reasonable; people have different views, and there are different things going on in different situations. A meeting of my prayer group is a gathering of believers. A meeting of the retreat team is a gathering of believers. Even a meeting of the "raise funds for the new church" committee is a gathering of believers. Those are not ceremonies. However, we view the Mass, the worship service, as a ceremony as well as a gathering of the faithful.
I stated that I had attended a few brush arbor services as a kid. No one dressed up for those in hot MS in July/August.
On the other hand, people of all denominations, throughout the unairconditioned South, dressed up for church for generations. Christians in India, Africa, the Middle East do so today. There are different customs. I've been to a church service on the hangar deck of an aircraft carrier in Corpus Christi, Texas. The men wore their military uniforms, and the women and kids were dressed up, just as they would have been if it were a change-of-command ceremony.
I read Ex. 28:2 about the clothes made. But, Jesus did not dress that way.
Jesus was not a ritual priest of the Jewish faith. However, unless one believes the God the Israelites worshipped is not the God Christians worship, there is definitely the concept that worship of God can be a religious ceremony with, among other elements, ceremonial dress.
But, then, Roman Catholics often post threads that ONLY promote the Roman Catholic church and it's often done as an attempt to disguise that intent with distracting details.
There is nothing in New Testament Scripture which could lend to the distinction of dress in how we worship God. As Scripture tells us:
John 4:,I. ...23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
The people in the Old South did things I can not understand. No wonder ladies fainted. I do not think I ever went to a church with air conditioning as a kid. We were used to the heat and our dress showed that. My late mom was born in 1904 and she never, ever got hot. I did not understand that then and sure do not today. We are spoiled today—go from an ac house, to an ac car and every building has ac. That was why we were given fans with a funeral home ad on one side! When I was growing up, there were only 3 Catholic families in town that I can remember. There may have been more that I did not know about.
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