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Confusion in Telegraph story about Francis and divorce/remarriage
WDTPRS ^ | 4/23/2014 | Fr John Zuhlsdorf

Posted on 04/24/2014 5:40:06 AM PDT by markomalley

Sometimes it is hard to tell whether the writer gets it wrong because he doesn’t know better or whether their mistakes are on purpose.

Perhaps you can chime in.

From The Telegraph:

Pope Francis tells divorced woman she should be allowed Communion [This is news?  No.  That was a trick question.  Is there more?]

In what would be a break from Catholic teaching, Pope said to have phoned remarried [That adds new information, doesn't it?   You would think that something this important would in the headline, no?] Argentine woman Jacquelina Sabetta telling her ‘nothing wrong’ in her taking Holy Communion  [Next question: Who says?  Who claims that this is what the Pope said?]

Pope Francis has reportedly [!] told a divorced and remarried woman that she should be allowed to receive Holy Communion, in what would be a significant shift from current Catholic Church teaching. [And therefore we are all to be highly skeptical.  This is rumor.  The woman tells a reporter in Argentina, the wires pick it up, this article is written... how many times removed is this?  Did she, at the beginning, even grasp what the Pope might have actually said?  (I doubt it.)]

Jacquelina Sabetta, who is from the Pope’s home country of Argentina, wrote to him saying that she found it distressing that as a Catholic who had divorced and remarried, she was not allowed to take the Sacrament in church. ["Take the Sacrament" a turn of phrase redolent of... something.]

After divorcing her first husband, she had remarried in a civil ceremony.

In her letter she said she was worried that if she took Communion, she would be “violating Church rules”. [NO!  This is not just a "rule"! Rules are fairly easily changed.]

The Pope, who since being elected 13 months ago has established a reputation for calling ordinary Catholics out of the blue, then telephoned her at home on Easter Monday. [Maybe.]

He reportedly [!] told her: “A divorcee who takes communion is not doing anything wrong.” [That doesn't pass the smell test.  I just don't buy that the Pope would tell a woman who is in an improper marriage can receive Communion.  And I certainly don't think he would have wanted this to be trumpeted around.]

The surprising exchange was recounted by Mrs Sabetta’s husband, Julio Sabetta, who wrote about it on his Facebook page.  [WOAH!  So, the source wasn't the woman who allegedly received the phone call.  This is more information.  It was her "husband".  And not just her husband, but his page on FACEBOOK!  This is a good source?]

“One of the most wonderful things in my life has just happened,” he wrote.  [And I suppose we are all supposed to be delighted for them. How you "feel" is all that matters these days.]

The phone call from the Pope reportedly [!] came six months after the woman wrote to him. Introducing himself as “Father Bergoglio” – a reference to his given name, Jorge Mario Bergoglio – the South American pontiff said he was sorry it had taken him so long to make the call. ["Father Bergoglio"... uh huh.  Sometimes priest friends have been known to make some pretty funny phone calls to me and mutual friends while imitating imitable priests or bishops.  Hilarity ensues.]

“It is an issue we are discussing in the Vatican, because a divorcee who takes communion is not doing anything wrong,” the Pope reportedly [!] said.  [HERE is the big problem at the core of this article.  It is true that a "divorcee" can receive Communion.  In the last quote, that is the main element to attend to.  The problem enters when you add "remarried" to "divorcee".  Get it?  So... what's going on?  IF the Pope called, and I am not ready to buy that without a moment of doubt, and IF the Pope tried to explain her situation, did she actually understand anything he said after saying that divorce, in itself, isn't the main problem?  I can very imagine her tuning out everything after that.  Then she recounts it in a scrambled way to her "husband" who may or may not get it.  He puts it on Facebook.  Somehow the press sees it... how did that happen, I wonder.  Then it hits the wires... then... get it?]

The Catholic Church currently maintains that unless a first marriage is annulled, [NO! NO! NO!  The Church does NOT annul marriages!   The Church can declare that a marriage was null from the beginning.  The Church cannot put asunder what God hath joined.] Catholics who remarry cannot receive Communion because they are essentially living in sin and committing adultery.

Such annulments are often impossible to obtain, or can take years to process, a problem that has left many Catholics feeling rejected by the Church.

Since being elected in March last year, Pope Francis has on several occasions called for a more merciful approach to the problem, but had so far stuck to official Church doctrine.  ["Official" Church doctrine... is there any other kind?  Apparently there is the Church doctrine as reported by the MSM.]

In February he said divorced and separated couples should not be excluded from Church activities, in remarks which also raised speculation that he may one day lift the ban on divorcees receiving Communion.  [Again... sloppy and misleading.  AGAIN... the problem is not just divorce.  The problem is remarriage.]

He told a group of Polish bishops that priests should “ask themselves how to help (divorced couples), [HUH?  "Divorced couples"?] so that they don’t feel excluded from the mercy of God, the fraternal love of other Christians, and the Church’s concern for their salvation.”

When asked whether the remarks attributed to the Pope were correct, a Vatican spokesman told The Telegraph: “We would neither confirm nor deny that – this was a private telephone call made by the Holy Father and we would not divulge the details.” [The Press Office doesn't have to divulge all the details, but... sheesh!... at least uphold Catholic teaching!]

But the reported remarks were in line with the position taken by Pope Francis in recent months – that the Church should treat divorcees and their partners with more compassion. [When you look at what Francis has said in public, he talks about sinners and compassion.  Compassion does NOT mean violating the teachings of the Church.]

The remarks may indicate that the Pope, who has struck a much more inclusive tone than his predecessor, Benedict XVI, on issues ranging from homosexuality to same-sex unions, is testing the water with the intention of changing the Church’s position.  [Deceptive, this paragraph, no?]

The surprising exchange was first revealed by Mrs Lisbona’s husband, Julio Sabetta, who said he first answered the call from the Pope, before handing the phone to his wife.

“One of the most wonderful things in my life has just happened – receiving a telephone call from none other than Papa Francesco,” he wrote on his Facebook page.

[...]

The Catholic Church currently maintains that unless a first marriage is annulled, [ARGH!  A declaration of nullity is NOT "Catholic divorce"!] Catholics who remarry cannot receive Communion because they are essentially living in sin and committing adultery.

[..]

Read the rest there.

Remember what Card. Kasper has said.

“Tolerated but not accepted.”

That’s the solution?  Create a tier system in the Church, wherein the divorced/remarried are clearly and publicly second-class?

 


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: divorcecommunion

1 posted on 04/24/2014 5:40:06 AM PDT by markomalley
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To: NYer

There you go ping.


2 posted on 04/24/2014 5:40:24 AM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: markomalley

Kasper wants don’t ask, don’t tell on sin??


3 posted on 04/24/2014 5:43:58 AM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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FWIW, here's the statement from the Holy See Press Office:

Statement from the Director of the Holy See Press Office

Several telephone calls have taken place in the context of Pope Francis’ personal pastoral relationships.

Since they do not in any way form part of the Pope's public activities, no information or comments are to be expected from the Holy See Press Office.

That which has been communicated in relation to this matter, outside the scope of personal relationships, and the consequent media amplification, cannot be confirmed as reliable, and is a source of misunderstanding and confusion.

Therefore, consequences relating to the teaching of the Church are not to be inferred from these occurrences.


4 posted on 04/24/2014 5:46:35 AM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: markomalley
Once the unreliable source is pointed out, why bother about the rest. Whatever the branch of Christendom involved, the uneducated world will be unlikely to give an accurate account of core tenets.

At any rate, folks who would criticize a pope or pastor might do well to verify that what was reported is, like, TRUE. You can't stop people from telling lies and making mistakes. It is a pity to see anyone calling himself a Christian and yet getting all hopped up over hearsay.

5 posted on 04/24/2014 5:55:34 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: markomalley

That’s a handicap inherent in a pope-prophetic view of Christendom. If this pope wants to actually advise someone, people who have a vested interest in wanting a large segment of Christendom to say something grossly unbiblical (i.e. you can live in sin and yet not be concerned about supernatural repercussions from taking communion while that way) are likely to run with that ball. Previous popes probably refrained from giving such advice, knowing the danger that could come from being misconstrued. Francis seemed to have a Christian heart. He meant to do no ill. He wanted to give good Christian advice as best he understood it. But he can’t step out of the role that his segment of Christendom has assigned him, unless he wants to become, say, an evangelical Christian. (Now THAT would be a scandal.)


6 posted on 04/24/2014 6:03:04 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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MARK


7 posted on 04/24/2014 6:04:17 AM PDT by Bigg Red (1 Pt 1: As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct.)
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To: markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; ...
Many thanks!

As a follow up, Catholic World News is reporting the following.


Vatican issues statement on Pope’s telephone calls

An Argentine woman who divorced and then remarried outside the Church claimed that Pope Francis telephoned her and said she was permitted to receive Holy Communion, according to multiple media reports.

A post on her husband’s Facebook page quoted Pope Francis as saying that “it is a concern we are addressing in the Vatican because there is nothing wrong with a divorced person receiving Communion,” according to the ANSA news agency.

Following the media reports, the Holy See Press Office issued a statement.

“Several telephone calls have taken place in the context of Pope Francis’ personal pastoral relationships,” said Father Federico Lombardi, the director of the press office. “Since they do not in any way form part of the Pope’s public activities, no information or comments are to be expected from the Holy See Press Office.”

“That which has been communicated in relation to this matter, outside the scope of personal relationships, and the consequent media amplification, cannot be confirmed as reliable, and is a source of misunderstanding and confusion,” he added.

‘Therefore, consequences relating to the teaching of the Church are not to be inferred from these occurrences.”

8 posted on 04/24/2014 6:10:56 AM PDT by NYer ("You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears." James 4:14)
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To: NYer; markomalley
“That which has been communicated in relation to this matter, outside the scope of personal relationships, and the consequent media amplification, cannot be confirmed as reliable, and is a source of misunderstanding and confusion,” he added.

‘Therefore, consequences relating to the teaching of the Church are not to be inferred from these occurrences.”

Parse.

The "teaching of the church" has never been in question in this affair.

The question is both pastoral and practical. Even Kasper says that the "teaching of the Church" should remain the same. It's exceptions to that teaching which are the issue. Are there pastoral situations in which divorced and remarried Catholics may receive Communion? And is this one such situation?

Specifically, did the Pope provide such advice to this woman?

9 posted on 04/24/2014 6:19:45 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: markomalley

This culture wants the pope to approve of it.

Not going to happen.

THey can misconstrue truth all day long and get everyone around them to say it’s ok what ever they do.

If the pope were to agree to all they demand he agree to he would no longer be in keeping with the Church. He is not the Church, anymore, BTW , than is barry the constitution.

Divorced people are not shunned form the Church. THey might feel out of it socially, and that they have to work out as a result of having married someone who turned away from them and the Church for whatever reason.

But they can be in Communion with the Church if they want to be.

If they want to move on, they a\have to ask the Church if there is cause for nullity.

It takes a long time. Same as engagement should.

THe Telegraph cannot be relied upon for any dose of factual substance regarding the Church or anything of decency.


10 posted on 04/24/2014 6:32:24 AM PDT by stanne
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To: markomalley; NYer

An excellent response by the Holy See Press Office.

Of course it will be totally ignored by those who want to spread dissent.


11 posted on 04/24/2014 6:45:06 AM PDT by GreyFriar ( Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: GeronL

Kaspar is a wingnut.


12 posted on 04/24/2014 6:51:04 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Celebrating the return of Piper after 16 days on the lam. Have a drink!)
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To: stanne; markomalley; GreyFriar
If the pope were to agree to all they demand he agree to he would no longer be in keeping with the Church. He is not the Church, anymore, BTW , than is barry the constitution.

Excellent observation!

THe Telegraph cannot be relied upon for any dose of factual substance regarding the Church or anything of decency.

This is why we felt it important to print Fr. Z's response, along with that of the Vatican Press Office.

13 posted on 04/24/2014 6:53:48 AM PDT by NYer ("You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears." James 4:14)
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To: NYer

Always.


14 posted on 04/24/2014 7:05:49 AM PDT by stanne
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To: marshmallow

The pastoral response would be to seek a way to bring those living in sin to return to following the will of God, not making them comfortable in their sins.


15 posted on 04/24/2014 7:10:10 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: marshmallow

Your question is important of course, but if I may say it’s importance is only insomuch as it may indicate bad pastoral care on the part of Pope Francis. And that’s all we (as Catholics) should be concerned about really. IOW, Pope Francis isn’t any more of a threat to the teaching authority of the Church any more than any other “bad Pope” through the centuries. Indeed, if this is the worst we may suffer, we’re pretty well off.

I tend to agree with FR. Z’s take on the issue. The woman probably heard the Pope say, “Divorced people are free to take communion” (which has always been true) and tuned out the rest, specifically when he (probably) said something like “Divorced people can receive but not those who also remarry”.

Then again, maybe he didn’t add the second sentence above and thus, again, that would be poor pastoral care on his part. But not in any way a danger to Church dogma.

Stories like this are largely only useful to those who hate the Church. Either spurned “traditionalists” who demand their own version of doctrinal purity or scorned anti-Catholics who use this as another “justification” of their assertion of the fallible nature of Popes throughout the centuries. Neither of which is proof of anything of course except in their own minds.

So we shouldn’t give it any more weight than it deserves. Which is very little.


16 posted on 04/24/2014 7:38:05 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: markomalley

**cannot be confirmed as reliable, and is a source of misunderstanding and confusion.**

BTTT!


17 posted on 04/24/2014 8:25:18 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

http://davidgibson.religionnews.com/2014/04/23/pope-francis-really-tell-divorced-woman-take-communion/


18 posted on 04/24/2014 9:22:08 AM PDT by NKP_Vet ("It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died;we should thank God that such men lived" ~ Patton)
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To: NKP_Vet

As that article ends:

**Stay tuned.**


19 posted on 04/24/2014 9:26:05 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer; markomalley; Brian Kopp DPM
The Vatican has never denied the first-hand report of the content of the Pope's telephone conversation. Once again, the media is blamed.

Fr. Lombardi is to Pope Francis as Jay Carney is to Obama, a professioal obfucastor. Francis has been sending aloft trial balloons for communion for active adulterers since his plane trip back from Rio.

20 posted on 04/24/2014 7:45:49 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Salvation; NYer; markomalley; Brian Kopp DPM

Why can’t it be confirmed? Why can’t the silent Pope come out and deny it?


21 posted on 04/24/2014 7:47:50 PM PDT by ebb tide
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