Posted on 02/22/2014 10:53:16 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
>>>Yes I posted from Revelation 19 because you stated Revelation 20 is yet to be fulfilled. I asked if you see Revelation as fulfilled.<<<
I see. You did notice that in Rev 19 the Lord and his armies were in heaven, didn’t you?
Philip
Agree. And Christ received those promises as Abraham's seed (as in singular.) Those who are Christ's also receive the promise as Abraham's seeds; and Paul was adamant that the heirs were both Jews and Gentiles:
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:26-29 KJV)
Philip
No problems with scholarship at all. You asserted you studied independently without outside influencers. Yet your first few threads were heavy on outside sources. Your comments also are very similar to Freepers who have posted here before defending a full or partial prederist position. The examples you give from Isaiah and hard references from Josephus are word for word from another recent poster. So I questioned the independent study claims.
I will gladly concur with the premise.
This is the way with most prophecy. There is an immediate context and fulfillment and ultimate fulfillment.
That is absolutely the way it is... else much that pointed to Yeshua would have been fulfilled before Him, which is why the Jews didn't get it put together. It is a caution for us today, I'd think...
“Then you have completely missed what Dispensationalism is.
Dispensationalism has all of genetic Israel as one, and the “church” as another body.”
_____
No dispensationalists state we are in the church age and there is only one body. The one body is saved by Grace through faith in the shed Blood of Christ. There is only ONE Gospel not two. There are some hyper dispensationalists who believe in a mid Acts or Acts 28 church as opposed to the church beginning at Pentecost. But that is not orthodox dispensationalism.
I will note I have not provided rebuttals within a dispensational context but purely from a futurist stand point. Thus again your use of pointing out other’s errors as some prop to present portions of your view. If a view cannot stand on its own merits, then what is the use of it.
Yes and where did those armies go?
>>>Using the allegorical the way it must certainly be used, this prophecy did not occur.<<<
Since this burden came during the reign of King Ahaz (Ch 14,) long before the fall of Babylon, I am having difficulty following your reasoning.
Philip
My apologies in my post #85 the last statement I had in mind for Phil and not you.
You present a good point. Normally I would agree with you that arguing prophetic matters becomes futile for fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. However we normally discuss points we all agree are mostly or all future and agree not to be dogmatic about it given we cannot be certain on some matters. When those who point out most if not all prophecy to include the second coming of Christ and the first resurrection are now past, I see such claims as being dogmatic and thus must be refuted.
As I stated in similar threads when it comes to eschatology we can as brothers and sisters agree to disagree and break bread together. All futurists, historisists post millennial, pre millennial, and even partial prederists adhere to a literal yet to come second coming of Jesus Christ. The OP asserted the second coming and first resurrection is in time past. I truly believe that is error and have kept my comments focused on Revelation 19 and 20.
Some are more consistent that others.
The way I have heard it, with my own ears, involves separate eternal destinies. And, of course, separate promises. This from a man involved at the time (he's dead now) in some way with LaHaye's pretrib group.
I will agree with Lee N. Field here - I have argued against dual-covenant Dispensationalists right here in this forum. The gist goes something like Christians getting raptured before the trib, then the Jews are left and the Mosaic code kicks back in for the tribulation...
Since this burden came during the reign of King Ahaz (Ch 14,) long before the fall of Babylon, I am having difficulty following your reasoning.
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine . . . Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger." (Isa 13:10,13 KJV)
Well, are you claiming a literal interpretation then?? Because that will go worse for you.
I am simply pointing out that if the txt above is not literal, then it must be allegorical. If it is to be taken as allegory, then what it is necessarily speaking of IS the Babylonian Mystery Religion, which was based upon the sun, the moon, and a division of the heavens into gods, as signified by constellations (our zodiac today).
All one has to do is read the prophets of God when they spoke of Him returning the Jews (nation of Israel) to the land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - a promise He has NEVER rescinded. Here are but a few of them:
“Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the Lord. Therefore this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the Lord. “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the Lord. “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The Lord Our Righteous Savior.
“So then, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when people will no longer say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ but they will say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ Then they will live in their own land.” (Jeremiah 23:1-8)
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will plant the kingdoms of Israel and Judah with the offspring of people and of animals. Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the Lord. “In those days people will no longer say, ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge. “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord Almighty is his name: “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will Israel ever cease being a nation before me.”
This is what the Lord says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the Lord.
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.” (Jeremiah 31:27-40)
“‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice. (Ezekial 34:11-16)
The "error" is in imagining that Almighty God reneges on His everlasting promises. He WILL do as he has said he would. Read also Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 12:1-7. The times prophesied have not happened yet, but they will and very probably soon.
What you posted no doubt exists but it is not the dispensationalism of Ryrie, Walvoord and the likes of Dallas theological seminary. I would not know what seminary or university such hyper dispensationalism comes from. But it would no doubt go hand in hand with the mid or end of Acts church vs Pentecost church. As I have pointed out in other threads is error given there is only ONE Gospel as given by Jesus Christ in Luke 24 and confirmed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.
“Traditional” dispensationalism has one church age not two or three as I remember it. Most believe the church age ends with the rapture (and there are varying views of timing pre, mid etc) in which time Israel becomes the focus of redemption through the shed Blood of Christ. Yes I’ve seen some of the other views here on FR of tribulation Hebrews instituting the Mosaic sacrifice system etc. but never came across that in the traditional dispensational writings. I have seen criticisms against the 1,000 year reign and Ezekiel temple institutions by some saying ‘that’ suggests dispies are promoting two paths to salvation. However I think you would probably disagree with such criticisms.
So honestly I don’t know where some of these views of separate bodies and gospels are coming from. I know of no seminaries promoting such which leads me to believe they are internet machinations.
I will point out that comparing a traditional dispensationalist with a hyper dispensationalist is akin to comparing a traditional post millennial to a modern prederist. There is a huge gulf.
One of the points I forgot to mention to you earlier. The “theme” throughout most of the Prophets is one of ultimate deliverance of Israel as a nation. Hard to ignore when reading the OT prophecies. For example:
Isaiah 46:3-4 NASB
“Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, And all the remnant of the house of Israel, You who have been borne by Me from birth And have been carried from the womb; Even to your old age I will be the same, And even to your graying years I will bear you! I have done it, and I will carry you; And I will bear you and I will deliver you.
Oh I will happily agree with you FRiend, Bur in eschatology (as with denominations), we are all stuck with our crazies. Dual-cov dispys and Hyper-dispys are Dispys all the same... It sucks when you have to label yourself 'orthodox' to distinguish your beliefs, but that is probably where you are now... You can try to lump them together and start calling them dipsy-dispys... maybe that'll catch on. ; )
And btw, you need not explain yourself to me. I know where you are.
Well, it seems you are living in heaven already. Nothing possibly could ever improve upon your lot in life for all eternity future.
My God still has a Plan, in which the Great Tribulation is still to come.
I did not even see that, but yes, that simply is too far from being tenable. I suppose also that the devil has been bound for 2k years also, even if he even hindered Paul?
He would also have to explain how Nero desolated the Temple in 70AD when he had already died two years earlier in 68AD.
Then they have to explain how God doesn’t keep His promises to the nation of Israel.
Genesis 17: 7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
The land of Canaan had specific dimensions and covered a specific area of land as described in Numbers 34.
God has once again established the nation of Israel on part of that land but will soon give them the entire area promised them for an “everlasting possession”.
Good morning redleghunter! Of course, you'll get no argument from me! Outside of Messiah, the second biggest prophecy chunk goes to Israel, and in that, most is about the House of Israel. I think that folks that say all prophecy points to Messiah, haven't read the prophets.
Equally, The Inheritance - Folks that say that all the promises given to Abraham land on Yeshua, simply have not read the Book. LOTS of stuff is promised to the tribes - the lion's share, most definitely to Ephraim, and to Manasseh, which cannot end up in Messiah (Judah).
This is titled the "Burden of Egypt." The Lord described many events of that burden over two chapters, many of which are very difficult to understand, and on which famous commentators, like John Gill and Matthew Henry, struggled. But the final burden in this sequence is the humiliation of the once proud Egyptians being led away captive by the Assyrians in little or no clothing. The following to me, are the two key verses:
"The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." (Isa 19:1 KJV)
"So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt." (Isa 20:4 KJV)
Whatever the case, when the Lord arrived on a cloud, like in Matthew 24 and Revelation 1, or as he predicted to Caiaphas, the high priest, in reference to Matt 24, the Lord was coming in judgement. This is Jesus to Caiaphas:
"But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy." (Mat 26:63-65 KJV)
Why did Caiaphas get so bent out of shape? Because he knew, from his knowledge of the Old Testament scriptures, that when Jesus claimed he was "coming in clouds of heaven," He was claiming to be the Lord coming in judgement: against Israel in this case.
And He did, exactly like He predicted in Matt 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 and Rev 1; and like in the parables of the vineyard in Matt 21:33-42, and in the parable of the wedding feast in Mat 22:2-7. Let's look at that last one:
"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." (Mat 22:2-7 KJV)
The armies in that passage were the Roman Armies, and the murderers were the "Jews," which in those days was just another name for the unbelievers of house of Israel. In reality, the armies were not sent against Jews, or the house of Israel: Jesus and all his disciples were Jews, and all of the Lost Sheep he was sent for, who became his elect, were also of the house of Israel. The armies were sent against evil men who had way too much influence over the world. Those evil men claimed to be children of Abraham; but John the Baptist and Jesus, and later Paul, rejected that notion.
Philip
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