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Moses or Christ? Paulís Reply To Dispensational Error
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org ^ | Charles D. Alexander

Posted on 02/22/2014 10:53:16 AM PST by PhilipFreneau

He who would understand the prophets had better begin with Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, where he will find that the Church is one in the Old Testament and New, and the New Testament Church is the fulfillment of all prophecy, the very last phase of God’s redemptive work on earth.

He will discover in Galatians who the true Israel is, to whom the promises are made and that there is no other Israel, and no further fulfillment of prophecy.

The problem of the Galatian believers was the conspiracy to impose upon them Jewish interpretations of prophecy, and to claim over them a Jewish priority or privilege. Paul repulses this conspiracy with unparalleled severity...

(Excerpt) Read more at graceonlinelibrary.org ...


TOPICS: Ecumenism; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; freneau; presbyterian
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Bio of Charles D. Alexander:

http://www.allbygrace.com/alexanderbio.html

1 posted on 02/22/2014 10:53:16 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; roamer_1; redleghunter; Elsie; Lee N. Field; wideawake; Alex Murphy; ...

Ping


2 posted on 02/22/2014 11:07:11 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau; topcat54; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; ...
This was posted back in 2005 when such an issue as this would get hundreds of responses.

Prophecy is not my main study, but as shown here , i certainly do see Riomans 11 reversing the curse of blindness upon Israel when the fulness of the Gentiles is entered in, so that what is left of the natural branches will come to faith, as there is only one gospel, and Jews must be saved by faith in the risen Lord Jesus.

But those who reign with and under Christ for 1,000 years will rule over someone, and the temple of Ezekiel, which is different from that of Moses will be built (which i see as far too detailed and elaborately described to be merely symbolic of the church), and the Jews will be keep the ceremonial ordinances in a memorial sense.

And Gentiles which survived the Tribulation will be tested in being required to keep the feasts, etc. Thus Christ shall rule with a rod of iron, while gently leading those that are with young.

But i have not the energy now to get into this extensively, but can ping some others who may want to.

3 posted on 02/22/2014 11:53:41 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: PhilipFreneau

The question should not be: Moses or Christ? To a Christian the answer should always be Christ first.

But Moses and all the Prophets were there for one and only purpose: to point to the coming of Christ.


4 posted on 02/22/2014 11:59:44 AM PST by 353FMG
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To: daniel1212

>>>But i have not the energy now to get into this extensively, but can ping some others who may want to.<<<

Great! Maybe we can have a lively debate.

>>>And Gentiles which survived the Tribulation will be tested in being required to keep the feasts, etc. <<<

Just a minor point: I believe the “Great Tribulation” occurred in the lifetime of the disciples, exactly during the time Christ said it would; which would place it most likely between 67 and 70 AD when there was famine, starvation and cannibalism in Jerusalem.

Philip


5 posted on 02/22/2014 12:03:29 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: 353FMG

>>>But Moses and all the Prophets were there for one and only purpose: to point to the coming of Christ.<<<

Amen.


6 posted on 02/22/2014 12:04:21 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Charley needs some serious study in both the Old and New testaments.

We are quite a way from the fulfillment of “all prophecy.”

His lack of understanding that the Galatians were already genetically the House of Israel puts more hole than bottom in his sack.

Typical replacementarian hogwash.

Replacementarians seem unaware that all of the congregations that were recipients of epistles from Paul were by birth Israelites that had migrated out from Assyrian captivity.

Nothing more here to bother looking at.
.


7 posted on 02/22/2014 12:23:01 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
>>>We are quite a way from the fulfillment of “all prophecy.”<<<

The author may have been implying "all Old Testament prophecy." There is a difference, you know. This is Jesus:

"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22 KJV)

I am no expert, but I think it is a safe bet that Christ was not engaging in idle chit-chat.

>>>Typical replacementarian hogwash.<<<

Not to be confused with dual-covenant hogwash.

Philip

8 posted on 02/22/2014 12:58:59 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: daniel1212; Greetings_Puny_Humans; roamer_1; redleghunter; Elsie; Lee N. Field; wideawake; ...

Nay, I’m not interested at least at this point. That Preterist “all prophecies have been fulfilled” has those under it’s error so blinded it’s rather futile to even start.


9 posted on 02/22/2014 1:59:01 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

>>>That Preterist “all prophecies have been fulfilled” has those under it’s error so blinded it’s rather futile to even start.<<<

I agree. I have no idea how preterists can believe that all prophecy has been fulfilled, when it seems clear that Revelation 20 has not been fulfilled.

Philip


10 posted on 02/22/2014 2:05:27 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; roamer_1; redleghunter; Elsie; Lee N. Field; wideawake; Alex Murphy; ...

>>>Nay, I’m not interested at least at this point.<<<

I would not be so quick to dismiss Dr. Horton, considering he is a Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics at Westminster Theological Seminary in California, who easily smashes to bits the doctrine of the Judaizers lurking under the cloak of dispensationalism.

Philip


11 posted on 02/22/2014 2:20:57 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Why are you pinging me as if I wrote that? Ping the person you are speaking to, not an innocent bystander.


12 posted on 02/22/2014 2:26:43 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: PhilipFreneau; Elsie
I would not be so quick to dismiss Dr. Horton, considering he is a Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics...

Does that mean the "art" of getting your lambs in a row before saying you're sorry?!!

I'm done...

13 posted on 02/22/2014 2:43:24 PM PST by Errant (Surround yourself with intelligent and industrious people who help and support each other.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Why are you pinging me as if I wrote that? Ping the person you are speaking to, not an innocent bystander.

****


14 posted on 02/22/2014 2:53:46 PM PST by restornu
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To: PhilipFreneau

There were no huge hail stones mixed with blood, nor was there a beast system that confronted two preternatural witnesses (who had the power of deep heaven that could shut off the rain or consume men with fire who should attempt to kill them) during the time period in which you speak. Mt Vesuvius was to blow up in 79 AD but that was the only real historic cataclysm of the time period. No instances where the day /night period was shortened by 6 hours and that the moon no longer showed her light. The mountains of the world have not been flattened and there is no river of fresh water flowing east AND west out of the Holy land...all of these things of which were to be seen during the tribulation and afterwards. Revelation speaks of the entire WORLD(not just Israel of the 70 ad time period) as going thru a tribulation such that, had never happened before nor would again. Had the tribulation occurred as you suggested...then Christ would have set up his 1000 year kingdom...the great final rebellion would have occurred and God’s white throne judgment would have happened. We would all be living now in God’s new heaven and new Earth.

While Revelation uses symbolic language in part, it is black and white about specific key events that mark the tribulation period as well as final 3.5 years often known as “the days of wrath”, marked by a final blood bath at Armageddon. The time period you cite with its historic events just doesn’t fit with Biblical prophecy which describes the days of the coming of the Son of Man.

Unless you are prepared to set the book of Revelation entirely at naught, you can’t show me any period in history marked by 7 years of world wide earth shattering judgments, plagues, or an economic system that forces all men of all classes to take a mark and worship an image, a false prophet, and the beast, the son of perdition as described in Thessalonians. Are you prepared to deny the coming two witnesses?


15 posted on 02/22/2014 3:01:27 PM PST by mdmathis6 (American Christians can help America best by remembering that we are Heaven's citizens first!)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; CynicalBear

>>>Why are you pinging me as if I wrote that? Ping the person you are speaking to, not an innocent bystander.<<<

My mistake. I thought he had pinged you initially.

While we are on the subject, are you not going to defend one of your own reformed types from dispensational aspersions?

Philip


16 posted on 02/22/2014 3:04:03 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau; CynicalBear
"While we are on the subject, are you not going to defend one of your own reformed types from dispensational aspersions? Philip"

I am not a full-preterist nor any of the other things you teach, nor am I actually interested in debating dispensationalism. If you're looking to draw me into a debate, start a thread defending your modalism or soteriology, lose the Ecumenical tag, and then ping me to that one.

17 posted on 02/22/2014 3:09:29 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: CynicalBear

“please don’t include me in pings to your posts”

Ahhh...come on..this should be fun! (/s)


19 posted on 02/22/2014 3:24:56 PM PST by mdmathis6 (American Christians can help America best by remembering that we are Heaven's citizens first!)
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To: mdmathis6
>>>There were no huge hail stones mixed with blood, nor was there a beast system that confronted two preternatural witnesses (who had the power of deep heaven that could shut off the rain or consume men with fire who should attempt to kill them) during the time period in which you speak.<<<

This also did not happen "literally:"

"The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." (Isa 19:1)

It turns out the "Lord riding upon a swift cloud" was the Assyrian Army. LOL!

The following events also did not happen literally:

"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine . . . Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger." (Isa 13:10,13 KJV)

That was the Lord's way of saying that the old nation of Babylon, that had held Israel captive at one time, had seen its last days. LOL!

And this also did not happen literally:

"Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment." (Isa 34:3-5 KJV)

That was God's judgement against Idumea. LOL!

In light of all that imagery, which is similar to that in the Revelation, would it not be prudent to reconsider literalism as a viable interpretive method for the Revelation?

>>>>While Revelation uses symbolic language in part, it is black and white about specific key events that mark the tribulation period as well as final 3.5 years often known as “the days of wrath”, marked by a final blood bath at Armageddon. The time period you cite with its historic events just doesn’t fit with Biblical prophecy which describes the days of the coming of the Son of Man.<<<<

Everything I cite fits perfectly. There are tons of evidence, internal and external, that the Revelation was referring to the destruction of old Jerusalem, called Babylon the Great, and to the reign of Nero: old 666 himself. The most compelling evidence, to me, is the fact that Jesus said the great tribulation would occur in the generation of his disciples; that the blood of all the prophets would be required of the generation of Jews living during his ministry; and the fact that in Babylon the Great was found the blood of all the prophets. We have been fresh out of prophets since about 70 A.D.

>>>Unless you are prepared to set the book of Revelation entirely at naught, you can’t show me any period in history marked by 7 years of world wide earth shattering judgments, plagues, or an economic system that forces all men of all classes to take a mark and worship an image, a false prophet, and the beast, the son of perdition as described in Thessalonians. Are you prepared to deny the coming two witnesses?<<<

I believe every word of the book of Revelation; and, unlike dispensationalists, I have have neither added to it, nor taken anything away from it. Where did you get the seven years of "earth shattering judgements" in the book of the Revelation? I don't recall that. I do seem to recall history recording forty and two months of the Gentiles (the Roman Army) treading under foot the holy city (old Jerusalem) from 67 to 70 AD as prophesied in Rev 11:2.

Philip

20 posted on 02/22/2014 3:42:35 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: CynicalBear

>>>It’s already been established that you are a partial Preterist who reads and promotes a self confessed partial Preterist...<<<

I am a postmillennialist. A partial preterist is like being partially pregnant. It is a nonsensical statement. One thing I am not, nor will ever be, is a judaizer disguised under the pseudoname of dispensationalist.


24 posted on 02/22/2014 3:57:54 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

>>>>I am not a full-preterist nor any of the other things you teach<<<

I have never taught “full” preterism. I would recommend you quit making stuff up about me. It is unbecoming.

Philip


25 posted on 02/22/2014 4:01:13 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau; CynicalBear; metmom; boatbums; daniel1212; Iscool; editor-surveyor

Phil I believe your title alone disqualifies this thread as “ecumenical.” Ecumenical threads to my knowledge are a low flame environment and by attributing “error” to an opposing view tells me one cannot argue their view on its own merits. I have seen your posts and others from the prederist view and as with other groups you can only point out alleged errors of others to present parts and pieces of your own views.

If you cannot present your case without comparison or multiple web links to the ideas of others then why bother? I have yet to see a prederist lay out their view without starting with why futurists are wrong. Perhaps your ecumenical thread should cover your prederist theory.

In all honesty when you post you use the same approach the JWs use to “prove” the trinity wrong. They find out of context verses, switch hermeneutics within a passage from literal to symbolic to allegory and back to literal again to stuff their arguments neatly in the kit bag. Yet when asked for their unadulterated view in opposition all they give is more “proof” why the other view is wrong. This goes on for hundreds of posts and you never find out what they stand for other than they think the other side is in error. Frankly that is your approach as well.

So my advice is to present your case for prederism and see if it can stand without trying to compare it to other views. That would be a first. But I don’t think it can be done. The theory relies on so many shifting hermeneutics within passages and denials of centuries of historic external evidence.


26 posted on 02/22/2014 4:04:31 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: editor-surveyor

Truly replacement theologians by erasing a literal Israel have to fill loads of gaps in prophecy fulfillment. An easy way to do this is to state all prophecy is fulfilled. Makes it neat and tidy.


27 posted on 02/22/2014 4:07:51 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: PhilipFreneau

When was Revelation 19 fulfilled?


28 posted on 02/22/2014 4:09:14 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter
In all honesty when you post you use the same approach the JWs use to “prove” the trinity wrong.

It's probably not a coincidence that he actually denies the Trinity too.

29 posted on 02/22/2014 4:11:57 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: redleghunter

>>>>If you cannot present your case without comparison or multiple web links to the ideas of others then why bother? I have yet to see a prederist lay out their view without starting with why futurists are wrong. Perhaps your ecumenical thread should cover your prederist theory.<<<

First, I am not a preterist, so I will not be able to explain that theory in a manner like a preterist might do. About the only thing I know about the doctrine of the preterist is that they believe all prophecy—old and new testament—was fulfilled by about 70 A.D. I have no idea how they came to that conclusion. I personally cannot see it. I can only see the old testament prophecy as being fulfilled, as is written.

I would recommend you browse back through my posts and you will find my doctrine is defined by the scripture I post.

Philip


30 posted on 02/22/2014 4:21:35 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: redleghunter

>>>When was Revelation 19 fulfilled?<<<

I believe about A.D. 70.


31 posted on 02/22/2014 4:22:51 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: redleghunter

>>>Phil I believe your title alone disqualifies this thread as “ecumenical.” Ecumenical threads to my knowledge are a low flame environment and by attributing “error” to an opposing view tells me one cannot argue their view on its own merits.<<<

I see what you mean. Labeling the other guy a heretic is so common on this forum I assumed it would be a popular topic. My mistake.

Philip


32 posted on 02/22/2014 4:25:13 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine . . . Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger." (Isa 13:10,13 KJV)

That was the Lord's way of saying that the old nation of Babylon, that had held Israel captive at one time, had seen its last days. LOL!

I disagree...It means God was going to stop off at the Dairy Queen on his way home from the Hockey game...

If God didn't mean what he says, we can make up anything we want, can't we???

33 posted on 02/22/2014 4:28:55 PM PST by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Iscool
>> If God didn't mean what he says, we can make up anything we want, can't we???<<

That’s exactly what he does with most of scripture.

34 posted on 02/22/2014 4:41:20 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: PhilipFreneau; Greetings_Puny_Humans; roamer_1; redleghunter; Errant
>> “I would not be so quick to dismiss Dr. Horton, considering he is a Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics at Westminster Theological Seminary...” <<

.
Hardly anything to hang one’s hat upon!

>> “who easily smashes to bits the doctrine of the Judaizers lurking under the cloak of dispensationalism.” <<

.
Where can we find these “Judaizers lurking under the cloak of dispensationalism?”

That would be quite an interesting combination, no?
.

Messianics are hardly known for their embrace of dispensationalism, nor the pre-trib rapture.

35 posted on 02/22/2014 4:45:35 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Iscool

>>>I disagree...It means God was going to stop off at the Dairy Queen on his way home from the Hockey game...<<<

Lol! Maybe in some circles. But in Isaiah 13 God is talking about the permanent destruction of Babylon by the Medes. That is history.

>>>If God didn’t mean what he says, we can make up anything we want, can’t we???<<<

Isn’t that what dispensationalists do? Have you not read any of Hal Lindsey’s false prophecies, err, novels? Have you not joined his “Antichrist of the Month” book club? LOL! Just kidding.

I didn’t write the books so I don’t know why God wrote them that way. I do know the Jews completely misinterpreted the Old Testament prophecies by taking them too literally, and they are continuing to make the same mistakes. It is also worth noting that Jesus spake in parables, and his sheep “heard his voice,” but many others didn’t.

Philip


36 posted on 02/22/2014 4:50:00 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau; All

No but God rained fire and Brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah. There are “black and white” stone cold realities that Revelation says God will perform.

And don’t knock the use of symbolism as something that is not to be taken as seriously as “real” time language. God uses symbolism as he does to communicate to our spirits higher deeper realities that can not be contained in mere spoken words. God was certainly behind the Assyrians, who were known for the fierce swiftness, blitz krieg like in their military assaults...”like a swift cloud”, when they attacked Egypt. Habbakuk mentions the Chaldeans that were being raised up “as a scourge”. No they weren’t one giant “whip”...but God wielded the Chaldeans like a scourge to punish Israel. The symbolism merely describes the intrinsic reasoning behind why God allows Israel’s enemies to attack her for the punishment of her sins.

God did not use symbolic language when he decreed that Israel would again be a nation, in the latter days...though in one passage it is said he symbolically “hisses” for his people and they would come back to Israel from all the lands that they had been dispersed to.

But taking a mark is taking a mark and beast(yes a symbolic term for the son of perdition) worship is beast worship and the described spiritual punishment for doing so is stark in its effect upon the reader. Nothing like that can be shown to have happened yet in history.

The two witnesses display God’s full judgment power, there is no antecedent event yet noted in history that shows two men so reviled by all in the Earth that they rejoice, giving presents to each other when the witnesses are killed. That is not symbolic use of language the revelator uses in describing that event but rather a “dragnet style” just the facts madam account of a future event.

Now you can still try to poo poo my assertions but I suspect that you have a personal issue simply accepting the prophesied issues as laid down in bold black and white. Revelation has some strong scary things to say about the future on men upon the earth and one’s first reaction is to try to bury Revealation’s stark prophecy under a lot of preterist fluff about symbolic metaphors and snarky commentaries about contemporary emperors that existed at the time of John. I get it...God’s judgment will be fierce...what man could stand before it!

I can make distinctions between black and white assertions verses the use of symbolic similes. Indeed, I would pay more attention(as opposed to simple assertions of fact) to the reality God is trying to convey via the use of simile especially God’s beloved Son...The Logos made Flesh!


37 posted on 02/22/2014 4:54:21 PM PST by mdmathis6 (American Christians can help America best by remembering that we are Heaven's citizens first!)
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To: editor-surveyor

>>>Hardly anything to hang one’s hat upon!<<<

Wow, this is a tough crowd! Lol!

>>>Where can we find these “Judaizers lurking under the cloak of dispensationalism?”<<<

Isn’t that what dispensationalism teaches: that Jews have a separate path to salvation?

>>>Messianics are hardly known for their embrace of dispensationalism, nor the pre-trib rapture.<<<

Nor are they “real” Jews, in a manner of speaking. They have committed the unpardonable sin by recognizing the divinity of Christ.


38 posted on 02/22/2014 4:56:22 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

>> “The author may have been implying ‘all Old Testament prophecy.’ “ <<

.
Hardly a significant distinction!

Has Israel been subject to thermonuclear attack yet?

Zechariah’s “flying roll with an evil fire in a lead epah” is clearly predicting that event.

“All things which are written” are vastly short of fulfillment, both old and new testament.

Have the bride of Yeshua been resurrected yet?

Have the events of Yehova’s wrath upon “those that took the mark” taken place? - hardly!

>> “Not to be confused with dual-covenant hogwash” <<

I don’t go there either, so I’ll leave that to someone so deluded.
.


39 posted on 02/22/2014 4:58:55 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: PhilipFreneau

>> Nor are they “real” Jews, in a manner of speaking. They have committed the unpardonable sin by recognizing the divinity of Christ. <<

.
Only a small percentage of genetic Israel is “Judah.”

That flimsy assumption is the heart of dispensational error.
.


40 posted on 02/22/2014 5:02:08 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: mdmathis6; CynicalBear

A most astute post. Indeed one would have to stuff 7 years worth of woes in a two year bag to make 70 AD be the tell all. Not to mention more Jews and Romans died in the AD 132 rebellion.

The external evidence as you pointed out would have to be ignored as well. John would need to be exiled on Patmos around 62 AD and back and circulating Revelation no later than 65 AD for it to be prophecy.

I also notice these threads end up being more about Darby and how wrong he was and how wrong dispensationalism is. The prederist presentation is about “proving” others wrong without presenting an independent theory standing on its own internal and external evidence.

When you eliminate a literal physical Israel from prophecy fulfillment there are a lot of holes to fill. A convenient way for replacement theology to do so is to pronounce said prophecies already fulfilled. It is a tidy operation.

I will state I am not a “rabid” dispensationalist.” There are theories within dispensationalism which have thin internal evidence but make the most sense Biblically at the macro level. I guess if someone had to pin me down the best I could offer is I am a futurist who believes in a literal 7 year tribulation and after the second coming of Christ a literal 1,000 year physical reign of Christ on earth. I guess that makes me pre-millennial in my thinking and literal futurist.


41 posted on 02/22/2014 5:06:14 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: editor-surveyor
>>Zechariah’s “flying roll with an evil fire in a lead epah” is clearly predicting that event.<<

ROFLOL! Ah yes, old Rood’s dream!! That was supposed to happen back in 2001 or something according to Rood wasn’t it? LOL Rood and Joseph Smith both like their dreams right?

42 posted on 02/22/2014 5:10:26 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: redleghunter; mdmathis6
>>I also notice these threads end up being more about Darby and how wrong he was and how wrong dispensationalism is. The prederist presentation is about “proving” others wrong without presenting an independent theory standing on its own internal and external evidence.<<

Of course. The Preterist view, whether partial or full, has so many holes in it they can’t stand up to history. They have to allegorize much of scripture which most often gets them in opposition to other scripture which they then have to ignore or allegorize again.

43 posted on 02/22/2014 5:18:09 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: PhilipFreneau; CynicalBear

Your posts, views and sources are at the least partial prederist. Post millennials focus on the allegory or historicism of prophecies. Your presentation is a mixed bag of literal when it suits with symbolism and allegory filling in the blanks when a literal interpretation does not fit. Resulting in a convoluted shifting hermeneutic.


44 posted on 02/22/2014 5:20:08 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: PhilipFreneau; CynicalBear

Your posts, views and sources are at the least partial prederist. Post millennials focus on the allegory or historicism of prophecies. Your presentation is a mixed bag of literal when it suits with symbolism and allegory filling in the blanks when a literal interpretation does not fit. Resulting in a convoluted shifting hermeneutic.


45 posted on 02/22/2014 5:20:10 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: CynicalBear

>> “That was supposed to happen back in 2001 or something according to Rood wasn’t it?” <<

.
No, just your way of attempting to turn someone’s conjecture of a possible outcome into a definite prediction.

Typical CB reply - boring at this juncture.
.


46 posted on 02/22/2014 5:22:56 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: PhilipFreneau; CynicalBear

A good example of the shifting sands of your hermeneutic. I am sure you see Revelation 19 as symbol or allegory. It has to be in your model. If not then things should be so much better these days:

Revelation 19:11-21 KJV

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


47 posted on 02/22/2014 5:24:17 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: PhilipFreneau

When you do so within an ecumenical framework it is actually poor manners.


48 posted on 02/22/2014 5:26:27 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: mdmathis6

Wow a dash of logic used on the pages of FR. Nicely done.


49 posted on 02/22/2014 5:31:23 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: PhilipFreneau

No dispensationalism does not assert there are separate paths of salvation. You might find some hypers assert that but the majority clearly see saved by Grace through faith for all times.

The belief involves an unfulfilled unconditional Promise to Israel for God’s Glory. All promises are through the seed of Abraham and fulfilled through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ.


50 posted on 02/22/2014 5:37:06 PM PST by redleghunter
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