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Moses or Christ? Paulís Reply To Dispensational Error
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org ^ | Charles D. Alexander

Posted on 02/22/2014 10:53:16 AM PST by PhilipFreneau

He who would understand the prophets had better begin with Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, where he will find that the Church is one in the Old Testament and New, and the New Testament Church is the fulfillment of all prophecy, the very last phase of God’s redemptive work on earth.

He will discover in Galatians who the true Israel is, to whom the promises are made and that there is no other Israel, and no further fulfillment of prophecy.

The problem of the Galatian believers was the conspiracy to impose upon them Jewish interpretations of prophecy, and to claim over them a Jewish priority or privilege. Paul repulses this conspiracy with unparalleled severity...

(Excerpt) Read more at graceonlinelibrary.org ...


TOPICS: Ecumenism; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; freneau; presbyterian
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Bio of Charles D. Alexander:

http://www.allbygrace.com/alexanderbio.html

1 posted on 02/22/2014 10:53:16 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; roamer_1; redleghunter; Elsie; Lee N. Field; wideawake; Alex Murphy; ...

Ping


2 posted on 02/22/2014 11:07:11 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau; topcat54; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; ...
This was posted back in 2005 when such an issue as this would get hundreds of responses.

Prophecy is not my main study, but as shown here , i certainly do see Riomans 11 reversing the curse of blindness upon Israel when the fulness of the Gentiles is entered in, so that what is left of the natural branches will come to faith, as there is only one gospel, and Jews must be saved by faith in the risen Lord Jesus.

But those who reign with and under Christ for 1,000 years will rule over someone, and the temple of Ezekiel, which is different from that of Moses will be built (which i see as far too detailed and elaborately described to be merely symbolic of the church), and the Jews will be keep the ceremonial ordinances in a memorial sense.

And Gentiles which survived the Tribulation will be tested in being required to keep the feasts, etc. Thus Christ shall rule with a rod of iron, while gently leading those that are with young.

But i have not the energy now to get into this extensively, but can ping some others who may want to.

3 posted on 02/22/2014 11:53:41 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: PhilipFreneau

The question should not be: Moses or Christ? To a Christian the answer should always be Christ first.

But Moses and all the Prophets were there for one and only purpose: to point to the coming of Christ.


4 posted on 02/22/2014 11:59:44 AM PST by 353FMG
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To: daniel1212

>>>But i have not the energy now to get into this extensively, but can ping some others who may want to.<<<

Great! Maybe we can have a lively debate.

>>>And Gentiles which survived the Tribulation will be tested in being required to keep the feasts, etc. <<<

Just a minor point: I believe the “Great Tribulation” occurred in the lifetime of the disciples, exactly during the time Christ said it would; which would place it most likely between 67 and 70 AD when there was famine, starvation and cannibalism in Jerusalem.

Philip


5 posted on 02/22/2014 12:03:29 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: 353FMG

>>>But Moses and all the Prophets were there for one and only purpose: to point to the coming of Christ.<<<

Amen.


6 posted on 02/22/2014 12:04:21 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Charley needs some serious study in both the Old and New testaments.

We are quite a way from the fulfillment of “all prophecy.”

His lack of understanding that the Galatians were already genetically the House of Israel puts more hole than bottom in his sack.

Typical replacementarian hogwash.

Replacementarians seem unaware that all of the congregations that were recipients of epistles from Paul were by birth Israelites that had migrated out from Assyrian captivity.

Nothing more here to bother looking at.
.


7 posted on 02/22/2014 12:23:01 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
>>>We are quite a way from the fulfillment of “all prophecy.”<<<

The author may have been implying "all Old Testament prophecy." There is a difference, you know. This is Jesus:

"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22 KJV)

I am no expert, but I think it is a safe bet that Christ was not engaging in idle chit-chat.

>>>Typical replacementarian hogwash.<<<

Not to be confused with dual-covenant hogwash.

Philip

8 posted on 02/22/2014 12:58:59 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: daniel1212; Greetings_Puny_Humans; roamer_1; redleghunter; Elsie; Lee N. Field; wideawake; ...

Nay, I’m not interested at least at this point. That Preterist “all prophecies have been fulfilled” has those under it’s error so blinded it’s rather futile to even start.


9 posted on 02/22/2014 1:59:01 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

>>>That Preterist “all prophecies have been fulfilled” has those under it’s error so blinded it’s rather futile to even start.<<<

I agree. I have no idea how preterists can believe that all prophecy has been fulfilled, when it seems clear that Revelation 20 has not been fulfilled.

Philip


10 posted on 02/22/2014 2:05:27 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; roamer_1; redleghunter; Elsie; Lee N. Field; wideawake; Alex Murphy; ...

>>>Nay, I’m not interested at least at this point.<<<

I would not be so quick to dismiss Dr. Horton, considering he is a Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics at Westminster Theological Seminary in California, who easily smashes to bits the doctrine of the Judaizers lurking under the cloak of dispensationalism.

Philip


11 posted on 02/22/2014 2:20:57 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Why are you pinging me as if I wrote that? Ping the person you are speaking to, not an innocent bystander.


12 posted on 02/22/2014 2:26:43 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: PhilipFreneau; Elsie
I would not be so quick to dismiss Dr. Horton, considering he is a Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics...

Does that mean the "art" of getting your lambs in a row before saying you're sorry?!!

I'm done...

13 posted on 02/22/2014 2:43:24 PM PST by Errant (Surround yourself with intelligent and industrious people who help and support each other.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Why are you pinging me as if I wrote that? Ping the person you are speaking to, not an innocent bystander.

****


14 posted on 02/22/2014 2:53:46 PM PST by restornu
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To: PhilipFreneau

There were no huge hail stones mixed with blood, nor was there a beast system that confronted two preternatural witnesses (who had the power of deep heaven that could shut off the rain or consume men with fire who should attempt to kill them) during the time period in which you speak. Mt Vesuvius was to blow up in 79 AD but that was the only real historic cataclysm of the time period. No instances where the day /night period was shortened by 6 hours and that the moon no longer showed her light. The mountains of the world have not been flattened and there is no river of fresh water flowing east AND west out of the Holy land...all of these things of which were to be seen during the tribulation and afterwards. Revelation speaks of the entire WORLD(not just Israel of the 70 ad time period) as going thru a tribulation such that, had never happened before nor would again. Had the tribulation occurred as you suggested...then Christ would have set up his 1000 year kingdom...the great final rebellion would have occurred and God’s white throne judgment would have happened. We would all be living now in God’s new heaven and new Earth.

While Revelation uses symbolic language in part, it is black and white about specific key events that mark the tribulation period as well as final 3.5 years often known as “the days of wrath”, marked by a final blood bath at Armageddon. The time period you cite with its historic events just doesn’t fit with Biblical prophecy which describes the days of the coming of the Son of Man.

Unless you are prepared to set the book of Revelation entirely at naught, you can’t show me any period in history marked by 7 years of world wide earth shattering judgments, plagues, or an economic system that forces all men of all classes to take a mark and worship an image, a false prophet, and the beast, the son of perdition as described in Thessalonians. Are you prepared to deny the coming two witnesses?


15 posted on 02/22/2014 3:01:27 PM PST by mdmathis6 (American Christians can help America best by remembering that we are Heaven's citizens first!)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; CynicalBear

>>>Why are you pinging me as if I wrote that? Ping the person you are speaking to, not an innocent bystander.<<<

My mistake. I thought he had pinged you initially.

While we are on the subject, are you not going to defend one of your own reformed types from dispensational aspersions?

Philip


16 posted on 02/22/2014 3:04:03 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau; CynicalBear
"While we are on the subject, are you not going to defend one of your own reformed types from dispensational aspersions? Philip"

I am not a full-preterist nor any of the other things you teach, nor am I actually interested in debating dispensationalism. If you're looking to draw me into a debate, start a thread defending your modalism or soteriology, lose the Ecumenical tag, and then ping me to that one.

17 posted on 02/22/2014 3:09:29 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: CynicalBear

“please don’t include me in pings to your posts”

Ahhh...come on..this should be fun! (/s)


19 posted on 02/22/2014 3:24:56 PM PST by mdmathis6 (American Christians can help America best by remembering that we are Heaven's citizens first!)
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To: mdmathis6
>>>There were no huge hail stones mixed with blood, nor was there a beast system that confronted two preternatural witnesses (who had the power of deep heaven that could shut off the rain or consume men with fire who should attempt to kill them) during the time period in which you speak.<<<

This also did not happen "literally:"

"The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." (Isa 19:1)

It turns out the "Lord riding upon a swift cloud" was the Assyrian Army. LOL!

The following events also did not happen literally:

"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine . . . Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger." (Isa 13:10,13 KJV)

That was the Lord's way of saying that the old nation of Babylon, that had held Israel captive at one time, had seen its last days. LOL!

And this also did not happen literally:

"Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment." (Isa 34:3-5 KJV)

That was God's judgement against Idumea. LOL!

In light of all that imagery, which is similar to that in the Revelation, would it not be prudent to reconsider literalism as a viable interpretive method for the Revelation?

>>>>While Revelation uses symbolic language in part, it is black and white about specific key events that mark the tribulation period as well as final 3.5 years often known as “the days of wrath”, marked by a final blood bath at Armageddon. The time period you cite with its historic events just doesn’t fit with Biblical prophecy which describes the days of the coming of the Son of Man.<<<<

Everything I cite fits perfectly. There are tons of evidence, internal and external, that the Revelation was referring to the destruction of old Jerusalem, called Babylon the Great, and to the reign of Nero: old 666 himself. The most compelling evidence, to me, is the fact that Jesus said the great tribulation would occur in the generation of his disciples; that the blood of all the prophets would be required of the generation of Jews living during his ministry; and the fact that in Babylon the Great was found the blood of all the prophets. We have been fresh out of prophets since about 70 A.D.

>>>Unless you are prepared to set the book of Revelation entirely at naught, you can’t show me any period in history marked by 7 years of world wide earth shattering judgments, plagues, or an economic system that forces all men of all classes to take a mark and worship an image, a false prophet, and the beast, the son of perdition as described in Thessalonians. Are you prepared to deny the coming two witnesses?<<<

I believe every word of the book of Revelation; and, unlike dispensationalists, I have have neither added to it, nor taken anything away from it. Where did you get the seven years of "earth shattering judgements" in the book of the Revelation? I don't recall that. I do seem to recall history recording forty and two months of the Gentiles (the Roman Army) treading under foot the holy city (old Jerusalem) from 67 to 70 AD as prophesied in Rev 11:2.

Philip

20 posted on 02/22/2014 3:42:35 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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