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Notre Dame to host Catholic-Mormon conference
Notre Dame News ^ | November 27th, 2013 | Michael O. Garvey

Posted on 11/30/2013 2:52:50 PM PST by Ripliancum

An ecumenical group of religious historians and other scholars will convene at the University of Notre Dame’s McKenna Hall on Dec. 5-6 (Thursday-Friday) for a conference titled “Catholics and Mormons: A New Dialogue.”

The conference will explore relationships among Catholics and Mormons as their churches are increasingly allied in common social, political and relief efforts. Its themes will include “The Lay of the Land: Contemporary Mormonism and Catholicism,” “Catholicism and Mormonism in Historical Context,” “Revelation: Scriptures, Traditions, and Authoritative Teachings” and “Theologies of Encounter, Unity, and Diversity.”

(Excerpt) Read more at news.nd.edu ...


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicbashers; inman; lds; mormon; mormonism; notredame; terrylgivens; whoreofbabylon
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1 posted on 11/30/2013 2:52:50 PM PST by Ripliancum
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To: Ripliancum

Which half of the conference agenda is notre dame going to present? The Catholic or the Muslim ? (Doubtful anyone there can still remember any Christian teachings so it must be the Muslim )


2 posted on 11/30/2013 3:06:10 PM PST by faithhopecharity
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To: Ripliancum

Will the Mormons lead off with their Doctrine & Covenants which call Catholicism “the great and abominable church”, “the whore of Babylon”, & other terms of ecumenical endearment?

Or will this be like the Mormon mishies do, and give “the milk before the meat”?


3 posted on 11/30/2013 3:11:54 PM PST by elcid1970 ("In the modern world, Muslims are living fossils.")
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To: Ripliancum

My boo boo. It’s Mormon not Muslim at notre dame.


4 posted on 11/30/2013 3:14:03 PM PST by faithhopecharity
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To: Ripliancum

Notes Dame sucked up so Ignobly to the baby-killer Muslim in chief, that I accidentally misread it thinking it was more pro- Islamicist garbage from South Bend. It sure would be nice if we could rescue so e of these Catholic (and Protestant and Jewish) colleges from the cults of Satan.


5 posted on 11/30/2013 3:21:30 PM PST by faithhopecharity
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To: faithhopecharity

Notre Dame, the Catholic college....error right there...NOT a Catholic college, a “liberal” college.
there, fixed it.


6 posted on 11/30/2013 3:29:29 PM PST by Recovering Ex-hippie
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To: faithhopecharity

MeAning all the antiamericanism, anti- Christianity, anti-semitism on campus what with all the Islam and communism ( absolutely no negative aspersion meant about LDS by me, just to clarify in case that’s needed ).


7 posted on 11/30/2013 3:31:12 PM PST by faithhopecharity
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To: faithhopecharity

Understandable error-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7bukaRhbI0


8 posted on 11/30/2013 3:32:30 PM PST by ReformationFan
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To: faithhopecharity

You’re not too far off. `Prophet’ Joseph Smith said lots of nice things about the “Alcoran” & compared himself to Mad Mo.


9 posted on 11/30/2013 3:33:14 PM PST by elcid1970 ("In the modern world, Muslims are living fossils.")
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To: Ripliancum

Isn’t that precious of ND! Are they not just the coolest tha-A-ANG? /s


10 posted on 11/30/2013 3:35:12 PM PST by RitaOK ( VIVA CHRISTO REY / Public education is the farm team for more Marxists coming.)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie

I’d say Gonzaga is more a Catholic College than ND, however dialog is a start.


11 posted on 11/30/2013 3:35:50 PM PST by wita
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To: elcid1970

Will the Mormons lead off with their Doctrine & Covenants which call Catholicism “the great and abominable church”, “the whore of Babylon”, & other terms of ecumenical endearment?
________________________________________________________

Really? Is this an LDS Doctrine and Covenants? I know of no such reference in any LDS scriptures or accepted LDS doctrine.


12 posted on 11/30/2013 3:47:17 PM PST by Ripliancum (Mosiah 29:27. Look it up.)
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To: wita

Agreed.


13 posted on 11/30/2013 3:47:52 PM PST by Ripliancum (Mosiah 29:27. Look it up.)
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To: Ripliancum

I am shocked that Notre Dame would actually allow Catholics to speak on their campus, unless they advocated married lesbian priests carrying out abortions in the name of Moloch or something.


14 posted on 11/30/2013 4:11:48 PM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Last Obamacare Promise: "If You Like Your Eternal Soul, You Can Keep It.")
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To: Ripliancum

outrageous


15 posted on 11/30/2013 4:50:30 PM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: faithhopecharity

Could you please stop? Notre Dame is still very Catholic.


16 posted on 11/30/2013 5:05:07 PM PST by irish guard
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To: irish guard

I’d suggest all you doubters make a visit to the place. Yes, they slobber end all over Obama when he spoke at the graduation a few years ago, but it still has many, many dedicated Catholics attending and teaching.


17 posted on 11/30/2013 5:07:34 PM PST by irish guard
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To: irish guard

Sorry for the auto correct. They slobbered not slobber end


18 posted on 11/30/2013 5:10:11 PM PST by irish guard
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To: irish guard

parts of it may yet be Catholic, true, but much of the higher administration are very Anti-Catholic in deed and, apparently also therefore, in thought.... in my humble opinion

(perhaps if they want to be Catholic they will retract the high honorific they conferred on You Know Who who sponsored the baby-killing bill? Or, they could appoint persons who are respectful, at least, of Catholic Biblical teachings to the Board... and not appoint abortion-promoting left wing Chicago Alinskyite political hacks to the governing Board ... who then only leave or get asked to leave when some concerned Catholics discover and disclose the violations...)

I am NOT going to spend the evening criticizing ND. I made a mistake posting to this thread by mis-reading the article in the first place, had I read Mormon instead of Muslim I would have respectfully kept my silence. So, you do not have a problem like that. BUT if you ask me about ND, I can only say that it does NOT appear a reliably Catholic or Christian or Biblically-mindful college anymore. My opinion. It is worth only what you paid for it, of course. I will also disclose that I withdrew my plan to take a PhD in Theology at Notre Dame due to this issue (or perceived issue). Not sure what bearing that may have, other than it shows I was prepared to move and spend several years of my life in the hands of Notre Dame, so I certainly did not approach this subject with any hostility. And, I hold degrees from two other Catholic universities, having spent some 7 years on those campuses...)
So, go in peace and rest assured I am not going to post anti type stuff here tonight. BUT IF YOU HAVE ANY INFLUENCE at the university perhaps you can help it get back onto a better path? Blessings,


19 posted on 11/30/2013 5:18:31 PM PST by faithhopecharity
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To: faithhopecharity
I have little influence, but know from firsthand experience that there are still many good Catholics there. My two sons graduated in the past decade. Profs are still very clearly religious. We can disagree about how the administration goes about their mission, but it is still clearly a Catholic place.

I just get tired of many on this site who pile on without knowing anything other than they conferred a degree on Obama which the alumni clearly found disagreeable.

Your decision was personal and I can imagine that many would find certain people in the theology department disagreeable. I'm sorry that happened to you. I've just got an every man! every day perspective. That one for my fellow alums, sons and me is still positive...aside from the Obama error.

20 posted on 11/30/2013 5:30:19 PM PST by irish guard
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To: irish guard

yes. well, having spent 7 years at Catholic colleges maybe it was deemed sufficient , with another 4 or 5 years may have been too much for me anyway? can’t say.
don’t know.

Notre Dame is a big college and there are almost without doubt many good Catholics and others respectful of Judeo=Christian faith on the campus. I do not question this for a second.

The honors to the Baby-killer-in-chief were just so damned (word used advisably) appalling, and totally unnecessary! And it happened just about at the time when I was seriously deciding what to do (regarding further studies), so anyway I took the decision I did.

That same politician made Georgetown University cover up its Christian crosses or crucifixes and also other visible signs of Christian faith, when he visited there. And, you know he lied to get his health scheme passed, the biggest lie perhaps was his promise that it would never fund abortions ...

etc.
etc.

All I can say is that Notre Dame made a super-sized mistake (but one that was completely visible as such at the time, indeed I wrote a very respectful letter to the brass at Notre Dame but did not receive even the courtesy of a mimeographed form letter in reply).

I applaud your Notre Dame support and pray that it may help the college restore a credible administration.

Blessings,


21 posted on 11/30/2013 5:38:15 PM PST by faithhopecharity
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To: faithhopecharity

Sadly, many Catholic universities in this country are not managed as such from the top. My three sons all attended a Jesuit high school and one of them a Jesuit university. The Jesuit university was far less Catholic than Notre Dame and the high school taught them to be a man for others, but seemed to be more interested in fund raising at times compared to a focus on Catholic teachings.


22 posted on 11/30/2013 6:16:58 PM PST by irish guard
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To: irish guard

Yes indeed. Well it is a problem the Jews and Protestants face at some of their schools too. People often think the Roman Catholic Church especially should be able to protect the basic integrity of its schools ( because of the RC church’s visible hierarchical structure) but it doesn’t seem to work that way and most of the colleges are actually managed by Independent boards or at least boards that think they are independent of ecclesiastical authority. Even the Vatican has identified this as a serious problem for the church as a whole and the popes have tried to reign in the colleges back to a more Christian modality at their core principles But it hadn’t seemed to work very well yet. I don’t know. There is such a strong anti- morality or anti- Judeo-Christian faith zeitgeist these days , promoted brassily by Obama and company We do Indeed seem to be struggling against those evil principalities and forces we were told would assail us.


23 posted on 11/30/2013 6:32:12 PM PST by faithhopecharity
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To: faithhopecharity
We can continue to pray.

peace out

24 posted on 11/30/2013 6:38:18 PM PST by irish guard
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To: Ripliancum

Very ecumenical.


25 posted on 11/30/2013 6:38:41 PM PST by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: Ripliancum

Conversation starts with mary, our lady of Fatima....


26 posted on 11/30/2013 6:59:01 PM PST by delchiante
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To: Ripliancum

No anti-Catholicism in LDS?

LDS Apostle Orson Pratt:

Q. Is the Roman Catholic Church the Church of Christ?

A. No: for she has no inspired priesthood or officers…

Q. How long since the Roman Catholic Church lost the authority and ceased to be the Church of Christ?

A. She never had authority and never was the Church of Christ…

Q. Who founded the Roman Catholic Church?

A. The Devil, through the medium of Apostates… (The Seer, 1854, 205)

LDS Apostle Daniel H. Wells:

I would rather preach the Gospel to a people who have not got any religion than I would to a people who have got a great deal of religion. You take the Catholic world. What impression can the truths of the Gospel make upon them as a people? Scarcely any impression at all. Why? Because they are satisfied with what they have got, which we know is an error, and which is not calculated to stem the tide of wickedness and corruption which floods the world. It never will convert the world to God or His Kingdom, or convey a knowledge of God unto the children of men, and it is life eternal to know Him, the living and true God. (Journal of Discourses 24:320, 1883)

LDS Apostle Hyrum M. Smith:

Christianity, as it is known in the world today, has fallen far short of the accomplishment of what might have been expected of it. It has failed in establishing those principles which Christ taught among the children of men. The great Catholic division of the Christian world, the Catholic church, is a national liability to any country. It wields a great power over the minds and the hearts of the children of men, but it is a power for evil rather than for good. It brings countless thousands regularly to confession; it rarely brings a single man to repentance and the abandonment of his sins. (Conference Report, October 1916, 42)

LDS President David O. McKay:

At one time it grieved me to know that this Church was not numbered among Protestant churches. But now I realize that the Church of Christ is more than a protest against the errors and evils of Catholicism.” (Conference Report, April 1927, 105)

LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie:

It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this “church which is most abominable above all other churches” in vision. He “saw the devil that he was the foundation of it” and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization. (Mormon Doctrine, 1958 edition, 130)


27 posted on 12/01/2013 7:33:28 AM PST by elcid1970 ("In the modern world, Muslims are living fossils.")
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To: elcid1970

That’s not what you said, you said it was in the Doctrine and Covenants, which is official scripture of the Church. Individuals have said things, but it’s not official doctrine, and people like Bruce R. McConkie have been corrected by the leadership of the Church, and his subsequent editions were changed to reflect official teachings.

Similarly, Catholics have said things about Mormons. Protestants have said things about Catholics.

Be careful about your statements, that’s all I’m asking.


28 posted on 12/01/2013 4:54:45 PM PST by Ripliancum (Mosiah 29:27. Look it up.)
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To: Ripliancum

Doctrine & Covenants (and Book of Nephi) on Catholicism, coming right up. Back at yah soon!


29 posted on 12/01/2013 5:01:32 PM PST by elcid1970 ("In the modern world, Muslims are living fossils.")
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To: elcid1970

Good luck with that.

According to LDS scriptures, the “great and abominable church” and “whore of all the earth” refers to any organization that opposes the true Church of Jesus Christ. The Church does not teach or endorse the idea that these terms refer to any specific religion or organization. It is clear that in cases where past church authorities have modified this definition through speculation, that the First Presidency has firmly declared those speculations to be in error.

You won’t find Catholicism mentioned in either the Doctrine and Covenants or the Book of Mormon.


30 posted on 12/01/2013 5:18:05 PM PST by Ripliancum (Mosiah 29:27. Look it up.)
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Further, the Book of Mormon mentions that there are “save two churches only.” The CHurch of God and the church of the devil (all those that oppose the church of God) It doesn’t single out any specific church, let alone Catholicism.


31 posted on 12/01/2013 5:19:51 PM PST by Ripliancum (Mosiah 29:27. Look it up.)
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And if you’re going to play that game, do you want me to pull out how many Protest leaders have called the Catholic Church the great whore of all the earth, found in Revelations?

Obviously the Catholic Church is working with the Mormons on a great many issues facing our society. They seem to not be as offended with the Mormons as you want them to be.


32 posted on 12/01/2013 5:26:24 PM PST by Ripliancum (Mosiah 29:27. Look it up.)
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To: Ripliancum; faithhopecharity; ReformationFan; elcid1970; RitaOK; wita; irish guard; All
ALL: This was posted the previous Saturday -- when BYU played ND:

With Love and Charity to All [Mormonism's 'Catholic-bashing'; BYU plays Notre Dame today!]

33 posted on 12/01/2013 5:56:23 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Ripliancum; elcid1970; All
And if you’re going to play that game, do you want me to pull out how many Protest leaders have called the Catholic Church the great whore of all the earth, found in Revelations?

This is a pure red herring offered up by Ripliancum...

How is this so?

Ask yourself: When a Protestant Christian commentator writes something, does he speak for/officially represent the entire Protestant church body?

Answer: NO!!!!

But when a Mormon "prophet" or "apostle" speaks...does he officially represent Mormondom?

Answer: Ya better believe it!!!!

Ripliancum is lamely attempting to compare apples (mere opinionated commentary at some local level somewhere) vs. oranges (THE OFFICIAL statement from the Mormon leadership and/or "scriptures")

34 posted on 12/01/2013 6:00:40 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Than please share, oh fount of all wisdom, what is the “Official Statement” that you say Mormons define Catholicism as such?

I’m assuming you do know what official doctrine is...


35 posted on 12/01/2013 6:05:26 PM PST by Ripliancum (Mosiah 29:27. Look it up.)
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To: Ripliancum; elcid1970; All
Further, the Book of Mormon mentions that there are “save two churches only.” The CHurch of God and the church of the devil (all those that oppose the church of God) It doesn’t single out any specific church, let alone Catholicism.

That last line of Ripliancum's is uproariously funny!!!

HaHhahhahahahahaha!!!!!

:) (HUGE GRIN on my face!)

This is tantamount to somebody saying:

...The Book of Mormon mentions that there are “save two political parties only.” The Republicans and the party of the devil. Why, this doesn’t single out any specific party -- like the Democrats -- does it?

This just doesn't even pass the straight-face test!!!

Give it up, Rip!!!

36 posted on 12/01/2013 6:07:48 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Ripliancum

So....anyone professing Christianity who does NOT belong to the COJCOLDS must therefore ipso facto belong to the `church of the devil’.

Got it, ol’ Shiz Mosiah Mahonri Moriancumr!

;^)


37 posted on 12/01/2013 6:20:24 PM PST by elcid1970 ("In the modern world, Muslims are living fossils.")
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To: Ripliancum; elcid1970; All
... the Book of Mormon mentions that there are “save two churches only.” The CHurch of God and the church of the devil (all those that oppose the church of God) It doesn’t single out any specific church, let alone Catholicism.

Per Mormonism Research Ministry:
Contention:

"One BYU professor explained, “Since whoever does not belong to ‘the church of the Lamb of God’ belongs to ‘the church of the devil,’ as Nephi announced, then all systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as ‘the church of the devil’ by Nephi’s definition
(Kent B. Jackson, “‘Watch and Remember’: The New Testament and the Great Apostasy,” John M. Lundquist and Stephen D. Ricks, eds., By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 27 March 1990, 1:87).
"Therefore, the question must be asked: If someone disagrees with Mormonism, are they aligned with the church of the Lamb of God or the Church of the Devil? After all, there are only "two churches."

Well, the answer is quite plain -- especially when we have books honoring Hugh Nibley citing a BYU prof labeling "...ALL systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as ‘the church of the devil’ by Nephi’s definition."

This statement has NEVER been recanted by Mormon church leadership!

38 posted on 12/01/2013 7:14:36 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Ripliancum; Elsie; All
...what is the “Official Statement” that you say Mormons define Catholicism as such? I’m assuming you do know what official doctrine is...

1

Lds "scripture" -- Doctrines & Covenants 1:30: “…the foundation of this [Mormon] church…the ONLY true and living church on the face of the whole earth”

IF ONLY ONE church is "the ONLY true and living church on the face of the whole earth" -- then by pure language logic, no other church likewise qualifies...it clearly implies ALL other churches -- including Catholicism -- is false & dead!

So that no one accuses me of false representing how Mormonism's top leadership interprets D&C 1:30...I will cite OFFICIAL LDS Church Publication, The Ensign: The Only True and Living Church from 1971, as written by LDS apostle Boyd Packer:

"The position that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church upon the face of the earth is fundamental..." [Packer then cites D&C 1:30]..."the churches...teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (JS—H 1:19.)"..."The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church upon the face of this earth..."

This LDS "apostle" says the above official doctrine is fundamental, no matter WHAT Lds FR apologists try to do to confuse this reality!

Furthermore, this LDS "apostle" accuses Catholicism (& other Christian churches) of "teach[ing] for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (JS—H 1:19.)" Packer, too, cites JS - H 1:19 ... which is Mormon "scripture"...

2

See this chart:
Charting Mormon Foundational Intolerance: Smithesque Slander of the Christian Church

After the heading row, Row #1 -- OFFICIAL Mormon "scripture" teaches that..."ALL sects...ALL wrong" (Joseph Smith - History, v. 18-19, Pearl of Great Price)

This doesn't make ANY exception for Catholicism.

Next row (same source): "ALL the sects...ALL their CREEDS were an ABOMINATION in his sight…they teach for doctrines the commandments of MEN…”

This doesn't make ANY exception for Catholicism.

3

Per Joseph Smith himself, revealed as a REVELATION in November, 1831, and listed in the Mormon "scriptures" (or are you going to now claim that D&C 68:2-4 isn't Mormon "scripture" or isn't "authoritative"?)

...this is an ensample unto ALL who were ordained unto this priesthood...
and this is the ensample unto them,
that they shall speak as they are 'moved upon' by the Holy Ghost...
[v. 4]: And WHATSOEVER they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost SHALL BE SCRIPTURE,
shall be the will of the Lord,
shall be the mind of the Lord,
shall be the word of the Lord,
shall be the voice of the Lord...
D&C 68:2-4

Do YOU catch the "shall be scripture" part? In fact, Smith wasn't speaking to just the upper-etchelon "priesthood" parties...no, v. 2 clearly say "ALL" ordained unto the Mormon priesthood! Any plain, non-esoteric reading of D&C 68:2-4 makes it quite clear that Smith was saying all Lds ordained priests have "scripture-factory" producing power and authority.

If this was "so" of Lds "grassroots" "elders"...how much MORE so its LONE "prophet" of the earth that the Mormon god invested his "authority" in?

Now just click on post #33 link...you'll find Lds "prophet's" statement related to ...

"the errors and EVIL of Catholicism"

-- given at an official LDS Conference.
And, based upon
(a) D&C 68:2-4;
and (b) please note that many Lds "scriptures" as NOW recorded in the D&C had a Lag time of more than 50-100+ years between when they were authoritatively spoken & when they were added to the Lds "scriptures" (D&C 136, 138)...just because these statements haven't yet been added to the D&C roll call, doesn't mean leadership has ever rejected these statements as false...or have been regarded as anything less than divinely guided to be communicated to the Mormon church at-large.

4

Lds 3rd "prophet" John Taylor wrote in an official Mormon church document:

"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what DOCTRINE, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'
- Then Lds "apostle" (later a "prophet") John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811

Mormon leadership has NEVER rejected this statement; and note that Taylor uses the very word "Doctrine" in this statement!

""Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God."
- Lds "apostle" to be "Prophet" John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939
Secondary source: The Church has a history of identifying the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church

5

Looking for other evidences of the Lds church officially sanctioning the statements of its so-called "apostles":

Then go here: “FYI: For Your Information,” New Era, Feb 1974, 44–46 -- published by the LDS Church: Sub-headline: 'Doctrinal New Testament Commentary Vol. 3 By Bruce R. McConkie Bookcraft, 595 pp., $7.50'

Now exactly why is this particular official Lds "apostle" commentary -- sanctioned by the Mormon church in an official publication in 1974 -- of interest?

Well, in volume 3 -- the exact volume so sanctioned -- this Lds "apostle" wrote:

"The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is EVERY CHURCH except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)

For similar quotes, see several sections of this article I wrote for FR: If Mormonism is 'anti-Christian,' then how can it be considered 'Christian?'... The fourth section is sub-headed:

What other proof is offered that Mormonism is 'anti-Christian?': Is Christian church 'of the devil?' per Mormonism?


39 posted on 12/01/2013 7:27:11 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Ripliancum
On a thread regarding Mel Gibson's view of Mormonism, a poster calling himself "Anthony" said: "I am new to this site, so pardon me for possibly a stupid question, but what does the Book of Mormon say about the Catholic Church? Any specific excerpts about the Catholic Church found in the Book of Mormon would be appreciated. Thanks." Here's my reply: There's a couple of things to consider before examining the Book of Mormon and what it says about the Catholic Church: 1. Starting with the First Vision, Mormonism teaches that all churches except the Mormon Church are an abomination in the sight of God. Joseph Smith History 1:18-20: "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)�and which I should join." "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: �they draw� near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.� He again forbade me to join with any of them;..." 2. The Doctine and Covenants also has Jesus Christ condemning ALL other churches, and especially the "great and abominable church". D&C 1:30-31 "And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually� For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;" D&C 38:10-11: "Verily I say unto you, ye are clean, but not all; and there is none else with whom I am well pleased; For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven�" D&C 29:21: "And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign." D&C 88:94: "And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood�she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea�behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it." 3. The Church has a history of identifying the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. "The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.' - Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811 "Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God." - Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939 "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon! - Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255 "A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names." "Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions." "But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left." - Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41 "How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations." "She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain." - Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346 "Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great"�"The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned�the great�the mighty�the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms." - Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109 "The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven." - Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85 In that context, here's what the Book of Mormon says: 1 Nephi 13:5-6: And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity. And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it. 1 Nephi 13:8: And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church. 1 Nephi 13:26: And after they [the prophecies and testimonies of the Bible] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. 1 Nephi 13:28: Wherefore, thou seest that after the book [the Bible] hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. 1 Nephi 13:34: ...the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb [Bible] which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb.." 1 Nephi 14:3: And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children,, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell�yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, said the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end. 1 Nephi 14:9: And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil. 1 Nephi 14:10-11: And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. 1 Nephi 14:12: And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters [oceans]; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw. 1 Nephi 14:13: And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God. 1 Nephi 14:15-16: And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth. And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things� 1 Nephi 14:17: And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel. 1 Nephi 22:13: And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood. 1 Nephi 22:14: And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great whore, who hath perverted the right ways of the Lord, yea, that great and abominable church, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it. 2 Nephi 6:12: And blessed are the Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved; for the Lord God will fulfill his covenants which he has made unto his children; and for this cause the prophet has written things. 2 Nephi 10:16: Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God. 2 Nephi 28:18: But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof. The Book of Mormon uses different terms for different things: The Great and Abominable Church The Whore of All the Earth Baylon The Great The Harlot The Church of the Devil There are some verses in the Book of Mormon that talk in broad terms and others that speak of a specific church. "Babylon the Great" and "The Church of the Devil" are broad terms to mean "not of the church of God." That's clearly what 1 Nephi 14:9 is saying. But look at the other scriptures and you'll see they are referring to a SPECIFIC church: - In the Book of Mormon, there are many references to "a church which is most abominable above all other churches." - This church had a history of an Inquisition similar to the Roman Catholic Church in that it "slayeth the Saints of God, yea and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron and bringeth them down into captivity" (1 Ne. 13:5). - The people involved with this depraved organization wore finery similar to priestly vestments; their church structures were ornate; and women in their church, like nineteenth-century Catholic nuns, were accused of sexual misconduct. Smith's Nephi reported in the Book of Mormon that he "saw gold, silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots" (1 Ne. 13). - Smith went on to assert that this abominable church "whose foundation is the Devil" and who is "the whore of all the earth" would pervert the scriptures entrusted to people by God, i.e. the Bible. - A book was to come from the Jews which would contain the gospel. The writer claimed this book (The Bible) eventually would fall into the "hands of the Great and abominable church" after which are "many plain and precious things taken away from the Book" (1 Ne. 13:26-29). - The Book of Mormon also predicted the sale of indulgences. "Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say, come unto me and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins" (Morm. 8:32) These are SPECIFIC references to the Catholic Church. So the Book of Mormon talks in specific terms about the Catholic Church (The whore and the abominable church) and in broad terms (Great Babylon and the Church of the Devil). The Mormon Church also has a long and consistent history of bashing Christians and Christianity. See: http://www.i4m.com/think/history/mormon_christians.htm My apologies for the one long paragraph. Not like that where originally excerpted.
40 posted on 12/01/2013 7:32:29 PM PST by elcid1970 ("In the modern world, Muslims are living fossils.")
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To: Ripliancum; elcid1970; All
...the Book of Mormon mentions that there are “save two churches only.” The CHurch of God and the church of the devil (all those that oppose the church of God) It doesn’t single out any specific church, let alone Catholicism.

Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie stated:

"The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is EVERY CHURCH except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)

Now I predict that Ripliancum and/or other Lds posters will attempt to say "this isn't official church-sanctioned" teaching.

If so, then why do we still have Lds.org -- the official Mormon Church Web site -- still sanctioning Volume 3 of McConkie's New Testament Doctrinal Commentary?

(They initially sanctioned it back in 1974 in its official New Era publication)...and still retain it as its official stance these almost 40 years later!)

If you want to see for youself, then go here:
“FYI: For Your Information,” New Era, Feb 1974, 44–46 -- published by the LDS Church: Sub-headline: 'Doctrinal New Testament Commentary Vol. 3 By Bruce R. McConkie Bookcraft, 595 pp., $7.50'

Volume 3 is precisely sanctioned -- the source of the above Lds "apostle" citation! )

41 posted on 12/01/2013 7:32:32 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Ripliancum; elcid1970; Elsie; All
From the original source of this thread:

The conference will begin at 5 p.m. Dec. 5 (Thursday) in the McKenna Hall auditorium with a keynote address by Terryl Givens, James A. Bostwick Professor of English at the University of Richmond. A scholar of 19th-century literature and literary theory, Givens also is the author of numerous books and articles on Mormon history, culture and theology.

Please note that even though Mormon Terryl Givens --
--in covering the topic of apostasy/restoration in a 10-page presentation @ BYU in March 2012 --
--totally glossed over passages like D&C 1:30; Joseph Smith History vv. 18-20; and numerous statements made by Lds general authorities in official Lds publications & at Lds General Conferences...
...Givens still made one small concession on page 4 of that BYU presentation:

"I note in this regard that Mormons have largely abandoned the equivalence of the Great and Abominable Church and Catholicism."
Source: "'We have only the Old Thing': Rethinking Mormon Restoration": Exploring Mormon Conceptions of the Apostasy Conference Brigham Young University, 1-2 March 2012

By using the word "abandoned" -- and Givens chooses his words quite carefully -- he concedes that what he speaking about was indeed the "official" Mormon church posture on the Roman Catholic church.

A position/posture, btw, that Mormon church leadership never recanted...just more oft' slinked away from showing the same vigor of labeling the Catholic church in this era of surface "tolerance."

42 posted on 12/01/2013 8:22:57 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: elcid1970

MEGO!


43 posted on 12/01/2013 8:31:13 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Ripliancum; teppe; trebb; restornu; Normandy
The conference will explore relationships among Catholics and Mormons as their churches are increasingly allied in common social, political and relief efforts.

But the world KNOWS what MormonISM thinks of Catholism!!


Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
But; this just might be old news.
 
 
Perhaps our resident FR mormons can point us to some later revelation that directly contradicts the above...

44 posted on 12/01/2013 8:34:59 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Ripliancum
Really? Is this an LDS Doctrine and Covenants? I know of no such reference in any LDS scriptures or accepted LDS doctrine.

I am SHOCKED to find gambling going on at Rick's!!

45 posted on 12/01/2013 8:36:12 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Ripliancum
Be careful about your statements, that’s all I’m asking.

Darned good advice!

46 posted on 12/01/2013 8:37:48 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Ripliancum
It is clear that in cases where past church authorities have modified this definition through speculation, that the First Presidency has firmly declared those speculations to be in error.

HMMMmmm...

Interesting!

Do you have any data to prove what you've just asserted?

47 posted on 12/01/2013 8:39:18 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Ripliancum
It doesn’t single out any specific church, let alone Catholicism.

Orson Pratt sure did!

Got any quotes from any 'real' Mormon leaders that denounce his statement?

48 posted on 12/01/2013 8:40:40 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Ripliancum
It doesn’t single out any specific church, let alone Catholicism.

BY specifically called out HIS churches members here:

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)


49 posted on 12/01/2013 8:41:50 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Ripliancum
I’m assuming you do know what official doctrine is...

Where can we find an 'OFFICIAL MORMON' teaching website??
Official sites are sites supported by LDS officials unless said official sites are considered unofficial by said officials.
 
At that point such sites are unofficial unless officially referenced for official purposes by officials who can do so officially.
 
This should not be misconstrued as an indication that official sites can be unofficially recognized as official nor should it be implied that unofficial sites cannot contain official information, but are not officially allowed to be offical despite their official contents due the their unofficialness.
 
Official sites will be official and recognized as official by officials of the LDS unless there is an official reason to mark them as unofficial either temporally or permanently, which would make the official content officially unofficial.
 
This is also not to imply that recognized sites, often used on FR by haters and bigots cannot contain official information, it just means that content, despite its official status, is no longer official and should be consider unofficial despite the same information being official on an official site elsewhere.
 
Even then the officialness my be amended due to the use of the unofficial information which may determine the officialness of anything be it official or unofficial depending on how and where it is used officially or unofficially.
I hope this clear things up for the lurkers out there.
The haters tend to make things complicated and confusing when it is all really quite crystal clear.
--Ejonesie22

50 posted on 12/01/2013 8:43:59 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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