Posted on 11/27/2013 2:18:56 PM PST by NYer
Jesus read people’s hearts. He knew when those who appeared cold were warm, and when those who appeared warm were cold.
I’m not concerned about where Pope Francis’s heart is. I remember, just a few weeks ago, some were in a terrible fuss because he embraced people with visible deformfities. “He should stand back! He should be cautious!”
Nonsense! He should love, love, love. And so should we. If we die, so what?
I was trying to defend the pope and skimming the document, can’t. And I’ve said so in this forum and on this thread
And it’s disturbing. Can’t see how they’ll turn this or if they’ll want to do, we’ll see
So, ease up on the knee jerk criticism
Maybe unfettered is the wrong word for the leftie way of capitalism - pointed in a direction and then smacked on the arse and let run. e.g. Freddie Mac/Fannie May.
The problem is that we still think we have a free market and that the system runs itself. On a surface level we buy we trade but we are seagulls arguing over the scraps. Market interference is there it’s just done by applied pressure or by movements calculated to set of chain reactions by super rich people like George Soros who can change the value of a currency by what he does. Does that not make the markets tyrannical?
The company I work for is based in Hong Kong - they are one family (supposedly) I work for just a twig of branch of one of the companies they own. My twig company is global and is worth many 100’of billions. There are so many branches to the parent company and I only know a handful of the other names that are also multi-national companies and those companies own multi-national companies themselves. The parent company takes no profit but buys other companies and undercuts local business for contracts - it is an all eating all consuming machine. In reality I think the company is a massive ChiCom. I wonder is our unfettered capitalism with no global boundaries going to have us owned by ideologies that do not believe in Capitalism but are in fact anathema to it or has it already happened.
Mel
“I have never met a Catholic priest who is not a socialist. I am not saying that all priests are socialists, but the ones in my neck of the woods are. I consider them to be ignorant on the laws of economics.”
Most interesting are the built-in assumptions about the man because of the title and the automatic defenses triggered by anything deemed critical of the man and the institution that gave him the title.
The black smoke has always had a very easy time rolling us over, turning us into Cains instead of Abels and getting us to forget all the Father, His Son and the Holy Spirit have taught and teach us from the moment He breathed life into the clods of dust and clay in His hand we each used to be and will be again.
Oh heavenly Father, bless and correct us, for we have lost our way in this desert we have made of your Garden. The wolves have joined with us, donning the garments of your sheep and your lambs and lead and guide us by the light of the deceiver away from your Commandments and your Peace.
When Jesus was asked, "What are the Commandments," He said, "Love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength, and your neighbor as yourself. This is the Law and the Prophets."
That's a big piece of text, there. People write doctoral disserations. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote enough text to ballast my van. We all need to read and think and work. I'm not on a socialist side, and I'm not on a "do what thou wilt" side. I'm on a "Life is hard, we should help each other," side. Like the Robertsons from "Duck Dynasty."
As Anoreth said, "My friends who aren't from the South don't realize that this is what people's real relatives are like!"
Sure...but these current markets are not free.
Currently, we have socialist governments loading regulations on business...thus, these markets are not free.
The Pope is wrong to bash the truly free market system. A free market alleviates poverty. Would he rather have a controlled market where the freedom of millions is squelched?
As far as your Chinese company...what you might be describing is a crony system where the Gov't is enmeshed in operations (not a free market). Since you're dealing with a communist gov't it may be likely.
What the Pope wrote, per the Vatican:
“While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. Debt and the accumulation of interest also make it difficult for countries to realize the potential of their own economies and keep citizens from enjoying their real purchasing power. To all this we can add widespread corruption and self-serving tax evasion, which have taken on worldwide dimensions. The thirst for power and possessions knows no limits. In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule... With this in mind, I encourage financial experts and political leaders to ponder the words of one of the sages of antiquity: “Not to share one’s wealth with the poor is to steal from them and to take away their livelihood. It is not our own goods which we hold, but theirs”.
” Welfare projects, which meet certain urgent needs, should be considered merely temporary responses...We can no longer trust in the unseen forces and the invisible hand of the market. Growth in justice requires more than economic growth, while presupposing such growth: it requires decisions, programmes, mechanisms and processes specifically geared to a better distribution of income, the creation of sources of employment and an integral promotion of the poor which goes beyond a simple welfare mentality. I am far from proposing an irresponsible populism, but the economy can no longer turn to remedies that are a new poison, such as attempting to increase profits by reducing the work force and thereby adding to the ranks of the excluded.
205. I ask God to give us more politicians capable of sincere and effective dialogue aimed at healing the deepest roots – and not simply the appearances – of the evils in our world! Politics, though often denigrated, remains a lofty vocation and one of the highest forms of charity, inasmuch as it seeks the common good.[174] We need to be convinced that charity “is the principle not only of micro-relationships (with friends, with family members or within small groups) but also of macro-relationships (social, economic and political ones)”.[175] I beg the Lord to grant us more politicians who are genuinely disturbed by the state of society, the people, the lives of the poor! It is vital that government leaders and financial leaders take heed and broaden their horizons, working to ensure that all citizens have dignified work, education and healthcare...
... Indeed, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find local solutions for enormous global problems which overwhelm local politics with difficulties to resolve. If we really want to achieve a healthy world economy, what is needed at this juncture of history is a more efficient way of interacting which, with due regard for the sovereignty of each nation, ensures the economic well-being of all countries, not just of a few.”
I hate to break it to you, but he is calling for government and politicians to use their power to make things fair. And he is also calling for one government to do it:
“what is needed at this juncture of history is a more efficient way of interacting which, with due regard for the sovereignty of each nation, ensures the economic well-being of all countries, not just of a few.”
I like money. It’s a useful tool. I don’t love it. I certainly don’t worship it. That job is filled.
I like capitalism. I think it works. I think it’s far more good than evil. But I’m not under any misapprehension that it’s perfect, or that its...produce...never stinks. I don’t think even everybody on here believes that, because I read the posts and the comments. That’s not to say that we need the government to cure every instance of capitalism having bad fruits. I don’t even think it always can. I think in some cases it’s part of the problem. Government’s job, its ministry if you will, is ultimately to govern and protect its people’s rights to life, liberty and property. If it’s not doing that well, it’s kind of sad to point to the social-welfare programs and say, well, we’re doing those well at least. Especially when in fact, they’re not doing them well either. I think the best regulator of capitalism is ultimately a well-formed conscience.
And by the way, putting everything on the card is even worse for your national economy than it is for your personal economy.
Honestly, I’d go so far as to say that Francis’ critique of capitalism could just as well apply to some governments as they insist upon becoming players in the financial game. Not to mention any names. Ahem.
Through no fault of your own you don’t realize the historical teachings of the Church on things like the free market and Democracy
Pope Francis is following in the footsteps of Pope Leo XIII and asking for Christian ethics to take charge.
This is what Jesus calls for and I would hope you would realize this
From Pope Leo XIII
GRAVES DE COMMUNI RE ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON CHRISTIAN DEMOCRACY http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18011901_graves-de-communi-re_en.html
Here are a few excerpts...
Excerpt#1... “”Christian Democracy, by the fact that it is Christian, is built, and necessarily so, on the basic principles of divine faith, and it must provide better conditions for the masses, with the ulterior object of promoting the perfection of souls made for things eternal. Hence, for Christian Democracy, justice is sacred; it must maintain that the right of acquiring and possessing property cannot be impugned, and it must safeguard the various distinctions and degrees which are indispensable in every well-ordered commonwealth. Finally, it must endeavor to preserve in every human society the form and the character which God ever impresses on it. It is clear, therefore, that there in nothing in common between Social and Christian Democracy. They differ from each other as much as the sect of socialism differs from the profession of Christianity.
Moreover, it would be a crime to distort this name of Christian Democracy to politics, for, although democracy, both in its philological and philosophical significations, implies popular government, yet in its present application it must be employed without any political significance, so as to mean nothing else than this beneficent Christian action in behalf of the people. For, the laws of nature and of the Gospel, which by right are superior to all human contingencies, are necessarily independent of all particular forms of civil government, while at the same time they are in harmony with everything that is not repugnant to morality and justice. They are, therefore, and they must remain absolutely free from the passions and the vicissitudes of parties, so that, under whatever political constitution, the citizens may and ought to abide by those laws which command them to love God above all things, and their neighbors as themselves. This has always been the policy of the Church.
Excerpt#2.. “”Nor are we to eliminate from the list of good works the giving of money for charity, in pursuance of what Christ has said: “But yet that which remaineth, give alms.”(13) Against this, the socialist cries out and demands its abolition as injurious to the native dignity of man. But, if it is done in the manner which the Scripture enjoins,(14) and in conformity with the true Christian spirit, it neither connotes pride in the giver nor inflicts shame upon the one who receives. Far from being dishonorable for man, it draws closer the bonds of human society of augmenting the force of the obligation of the duties which men are under with regard to each other. No one is so rich that he does not need another’s help; no one so poor as not to be useful in some way to his fellow man; and the disposition to ask assistance from others with confidence and to grant it with kindness is part of our very nature. Thus, justice and charity are so linked with each other, under the equable and sweet law of Christ, as to form an admirable cohesive power in human society and to lead all of its members to exercise a sort of providence in looking after their own and in seeking the common good as well.
17. As regards not merely the temporary aid given to the laboring classes, but the establishment of permanent institutions in their behalf, it is most commendable for charity to undertake them. It will thus see that more certain and more reliable means of assistance will be afforded to the necessitous. That kind of help is especially worthy of recognition which forms the minds of mechanics and laborers to thrift and foresight, so that in course of time they may be able, in part at least, to look out for themselves. To aim at that is not only to dignify the duty of the rich toward the poor, but to elevate the poor themselves, for, while it urges them to work in order to improve their condition, it preserves them meantime from danger, it refrains immoderation in their desires, and acts as a spur in the practice of virtue. Since, therefore, this is of such great avail and so much in keeping with the spirit of the times, it is a worthy object for the charity of righteous men to undertake with prudence and zeal.
18. Let it be understood, therefore, that this devotion of Catholics to comfort and elevate the mass of the people is in keeping with the spirit of the Church and is most conformable to the examples which the Church has always held up for imitation. It matters very little whether it goes under the name of the Popular Christian Movement or Christian Democracy, if the instructions that have been given by Us be fully carried out with fitting obedience. But it is of the greatest importance that Catholics should be one in mind, will, and action in a matter of such great moment. And it is also of importance that the influence of these undertakings should be extended by the multiplication of men and means devoted to the same object.””
That’s my point the Market is not free from either side - you are most correct in that the left loves to stick it’s icky little fingers into the market and fiddle or restrain it. They only seem to restrain the little or middle guy not the uber rich - they are beyond borders or retraint.
Cheers
Mel
I don’t believe that Pope Francis is against capitalism, maybe he is against some of the excesses.
He is certainly is against communism and socialism as he was in Argentina.
Pope Francis is for freedom and opportunity for all individuals, especially the poor. Capitalism is the best government economic system that provides for this. Are there problems and excesses. Of course. But capitalism is based on fair play for all by voluntary agreements to conduct business. Sometimes people exercise their powera in an excessive way over others in a capitalism system.
I think we need to follow this and determine the actual intentions of Pope Francis.
Capitalism has its problems, but it better than other system and has provided greater opportunity and freedom for all.
Rush is wrong.
“I think when the Pope denounces the ‘idolatry of money’, he is talking about the exact people that liberals love - pop singers who buy multi-million dollar mansions, pay $20k for a bottle of champagne, etc.
He is merely pointing out that, while Jay-zee enjoys blinging it up, he has completely forgotten that there are people in near starvation poverty all over the world.
In other words, he is ‘guilting’ people into being more charitable.”
The problem with this spin is that Francis urged politicians to solve the problem. He’s not talking about charitable, free-will offerings here.
“I beg the Lord to grant us more politicians who are genuinely disturbed by the state of society, the people, the lives of the poor.”
After skimming the article, I see Rush talking at two levels: 1) What is the Pope’s understanding of ‘trickle down capitalism’ as used by Reagan’s enemies. 2) what is the role of socialism in the greater economic scheme of things. I think that Rush is examining the larger issue of socialism and also is thinking of how Francis may view it versus JPII, who lived under its ‘ultimate form.’
From my own experiences I can say that the American Left/progressives/Democrat liberals, see Socialism as the best way to get everyone under their control and to make everyone ‘equal.’ The disregard that failed communism of the USSR as, ‘they just didn’t get it right.’ And through socialism only they, as the enlightened progressive elite, is capable of running the country. Or to quote Napoleon in 1984, “Some of us are more equal than others.”
“Done with Rush. Forever. Haven’t listened much anyway as I have never found him particularly intelligent or correct. He’s clearly in this for self aggrandizement, but he has has dome good moments.
However, for him to denigrate a man of God like this is truly an evil movie. I don’t know what he was thinking, but he has crossed a line. He puts himself above the Pope? How Liberal/Sectarian can you get.
Goodbye Rushbo. Don’t let the door hit oyu in your ample a**.”
Here’s the website to the Democratic national committee so you can sign up for their newsletter. They’ll be happy to have you from now on.
He is asking for genuine Charity.
Your only concern seems to be of the Spirit of "I earned it" and let others do the same even if they are not capable.
It' not up to us to Judge who is capable as long as we give in genuine care of others.
Even when we give to those who are scamming us it still builds up Christ if we do it without knowing this
I don't understand why professing Christians don't understand this!
Christian ethics are the foundation for a free market system. It is God's way of blocking Gov't tyranny.
And this is why the Pope should not speak out against the free market.
Posts like yours are why I LOVE this Pope! Ohhhh, if only you knew the comedy gold of these reactions! I’ve been giggling my way through this whole thread!
Thank you Francis for being the pinko red diaper doper baby we all knew you were!
I’m a “Protestant,” regularly slammed by Roman Catholic FReepers because I place faith in Jesus over membership in the church of Rome.
That said, if the current Pope is alleged to have said something dumb or scandalous, I won’t believe it. This Pope is an inspiration. He’s a good man.
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