Can John MacArthur - Calvinist - differentiate b/w the never saved & the out of fellowship w/Christ?

11/4/2013 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist

[Laissez-faire capitalist]

Can John F. MacArthur - or any other Calvinist - please differentiate between (or what constitutes the difference between) those who were truly never saved, and those who are saved, but are now living "out of fellowship" with Christ?

I have read in the MacArthur Bible where he seems to boil it down to... by their fruits shall ye know them.

But how much bad fruit or lack of good fruit does one have to show to give evidence that they were never saved, or that they are still saved, but have merely fallen out of fellowship with Christ?

Example: A young man goes down to the altar, several hear him accept Christ into his life. A few years later he goes off to Bible college and graduates, accepts a youth pastor position, and then a few years later falls into sin, deep sin, whatever.

Half the church where he was the youth pastor says that he was never saved to begin with, and that he somehow duped them. The other half says that he is still saved, but has fallen into - yes - deep sin, but nonetheless is just "fallen out of fellowship" with Christ.

Which half of the church can prove with absolute accuracy that they are the half that is correct?

are there some cases where Jesus said "let them [the tares and the wheat" grow up together and at ther end of the age the Lord will reveal who was and wasn't saved.

Problem is, could this all apply to your/any pastor - even to John F. MacArthur himself?

[daniel1212]

Can the Armenian differentiate b/w the backslid and those who are aren't backslid, just backSLIDING - but nonetheless still saved?

Actually, this is more of a problem for the Calvinist. While the Armenian can affirm such one was born again based "things which accompany salvation," (Heb. 6:9,10) though they later backslid, under Perseverance of the saints, no matter how much one has evidenced "things which accompany salvation," if they die in impenitent adultery, etc., are relegated to having never been born again.

But the biggest problem are modern day antinomians who suppose men living in willful impenitent sin are saved as long as they profess to trust Jesus to save them.

The Bible says that the heart is “deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?”

If that meant no one absolutely could, than no one could, but Peter did, (Acts 8:21-23) for "he that is spiritual judgeth all things.." (1 Corinthians 2:15)

Thus Paul knew the Thessalonians were elect in the light of their testimony, (1Ths. 1:1-10) and the writer of Hebrews also was persuaded by evidence of regeneration. (Heb. 5:9)

Moreover, the Holy Spirit provides descriptions of saving faith by which one may know they have eternal life, (1Jn. 5:13), while Peter provides for how one can never fall, (2Pt. 1:1-11) but which the Bible does warn against. (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 3:6,12,14; 10:25-39)

Saving faith is characterized the "obedience of faith," which includes repentance when convicted of not doing so, David effectively denied the Lord by His sins, but immediately repented when he realized his guilt (which he somehow must have sublimated) when fingered by Nathan.

Thus the Lord chastens us unto repentance, "that we should not be condemned with the world." (1 Corinthians 11:32)

Thanks be to God. We need faith in the Lord to save us as well as to perfect that which concerneth us, looking unto Jesus "the author and finisher of our faith," rather than having an evil heart of unbelief, in "departing from the living God," drawing back unto perdition.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“So basically, there is security in your faith as a Calvinist. One of the many reasons I reject Calvinism.”

---

It’s a security wrought from the Bible, which declares that whoever leaves the faith, was never a part of it to begin with:

1Jn_2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

But the false premise of your argument is that men are justified by a mere intellectual assent, which, in that case, even Demons could be said to be believers. The faith in Christ that a believer has is founded within the heart, and shews itself by its new way of living. This person may not be perfect. This person, indeed, may be a rotten sinner, who every day fails, but his faith is such that he can cry out, like Saint Paul, with the following words:

“For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”
(Rom 7:14-25)

One can know a Christian by the degree he hates himself, and despairs of himself, to never be saved by his own working and willing, but gives it all to God as the source and author of his salvation.

[daniel1212]

One can know a Christian by the degree he hates himself, and despairs of himself, to never be saved by his own working and willing, but gives it all to God as the source and author of his salvation.

Indeed, and thus lives it out. Versus those who trust their merit and or church, or that God will save them in His mercy but not on Christ's account,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Ephesians 1:6)

[The Unknown Republican]

Ahhh, but that’s the rub isn’t it...how do you define “fall away”? And how long do you have to fall away before you aren’t saved any longer? Let me give you my example to highlight the point.

I was saved at a young age and continued in the faith through college. However, I joined a fraternity in college and became addicted to alcohol. I struggled for several years with my addiction and every time I drank I cried out to God for help. I was not active in a church during that time, but I never denied God. During that time away, some would have seen no fruit and little evidence of my faith (except that the folks at my favorite bar nicknamed me “preacher” because I talked about Jesus all of the time). By His Grace I overcame my reliance and now don’t have the slightest desire for alcohol. The point is this, what amount of fruit is sufficient to “maintain” salvation? Who has to see that fruit (MacArthur?). What form must that fruit hold? How much time does a believer have to “fall” and then come back? Was I not saved until I returned to the faith the second time? Each case is unique and only God truly knows.

[redleghunter]

Of course. The entire discourse is important. We must go beyond that one verse for the full context.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

[redleghunter]

I can see it could be harsh. Not my intent. My intent was to point out only the adversary sows doubt. We as the Body of Christ encourage and exhort. So if I offended, my apologies.

On another note I am living proof (I know there are many others here too) that The Good Shepherd is faithful and true to smack us up side the head to get you back on the straight path. He is faithful and true to test our faith by putting it through the fire (reference Abraham and David).

This is done for us because He loves us. If someone wants assurance of their salvation then pray God tests your faith like He did by telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Then gird your loins because God will be faithful and true in answering that prayer. God’s Almighty Divine Hand will move mountains to prove His control in our lives. His Grace is truly Amazing!

[daniel1212]

Thank God for His enduring grace.

The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Psalms 34:18)

[Nervous Tick]

>> (I know there are many others here too) that The Good Shepherd is faithful and true to smack us up side the head to get you back on the straight path.

I am one.

[mitch5501]

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. (Jude 24,25)

[xzins]

All things are by grace. Salvation, perseverance, good works, everything. All is a gift from God and not of works so that no one can boast. We make a mistake to think along the lines of: "We're going to WOW God now with how awesome we are, so He can't help but realize that we're the ones that belong with Him because we're so awesomely good!"

ALL things are by grace. As is our perseverance.

Romans 8: 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[redleghunter]

AMEN. Thank you for the testimony.

In fairness to JM, he does give testimony of people he knew who made a public confession and then went on to deny God never to return. Most of his sermons are directed at the mental assent easy believism. I will dig up the interview where he talks about this. JM also points out David a lot to show we will not be perfect in our walk.

I think our one Biblical example of someone who proclaimed to believe but died in his sins was Judas. One might say he had a mental assent and then when push came to shove he not only denied Christ he betrayed Him.

[P-Marlowe]

And how long do you have to fall away before you aren’t saved any longer?

Since salvation is only confirmed if you persevere to the end, I'd say it would be a good idea not to die in that state.

I'd also say that as long as you are worried about it, then there is a flicker of eternal life left. When you fall away and don't care one whit about ever returning to your Christian walk, then I'd say that you may be there.

The problem is that you refer to it as not being saved "any longer." The correct way to look at it is not whether you are saved "any longer" but whether you were saved in the first place.

Jesus said that he would go to the ends of the earth to retrieve his sheep that have wandered away. He also said he would lose none of them. So if you are one of his sheep, He will find you and bring you back to the fold. If you are not one of his sheep, then when you wander away, you are truly lost.

[narses]

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “

[redleghunter]

I will add as well the testing part. The smack up side the head is His discipline, the testing is Him forging us for stronger metal and a sharper sword. My experience has been the hard testing comes when the walk is closest.

What a Wonderful Savior to love us so!

[redleghunter]

AMEN, Jude gets it.

[redleghunter]

Awesome Chaplain. Thanks love that passage. Discussing God’s Grace is much better than the battle of the canons threads:)

[redleghunter]

Amen narses! I agree the Good Shepherd is faithful and true! We agree!

[Alex Murphy]

I like the unpacking of 2 Chronicles 7:14 found on your homepage. I hope you don’t mind if I borrow it.

Not at all - feel free!

[Theophilus]

If the errant youth pastor demonstrates repentance then he ought to be restored to fellowship but he also ought to remain defrocked as having betrayed his calling. Elders have to pray hard for discernment on this stuff.

We Calvinsts know we are weak vessels of the unfathomably wise and mighty God. We are incompetetant to judge the saved but fully confident in God's infinite yet efficient ability to save. We have great hope for ourselves because God delights in hard cases.

[Theophilus]

So basically, there is no security in your faith as a Calvinist.

My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus and His righteousness. I dare not trust the sweetest frame but only lean on Jesus name.

I can't demand or expect mercy but I can trust in His perogative and right to render it.