Skip to comments.The Age of the Universe
Posted on 08/05/2013 6:15:40 PM PDT by wmfights
We look back in time, and say the universe is 15 billion years old. But as every scientist knows, when we say the universe is 15 billion years old, there's another half of the sentence that we rarely bother to say. The other half of the sentence is: The universe is 15 billion years old as seen from the time-space coordinates of the earth.
The key is that the Torah looks forward in time, from very different time-space coordinates, when the universe was small. Since then, the universe has expanded out. Space stretches, and that stretching of space totally changes the perception of time.
(Excerpt) Read more at geraldschroeder.com ...
I can never really figure out why time perception slows with each doubling I would think it would be the opposite because the size has increased it would seem like it's longer.
I thought this was pretty interesting. Any thoughts?
Time will pass slower in denser environments. Thus six days and 15 billion years can be viewed equivalently.
I’m a big fan of Gerald Schroeder.
Genesis is literal. There is no poetry like Revelation. A day is a day. If your human intellect must try to comprehend the math, then realize that sin broke the world and reshaped everything. What was the speed of light before sin corrupted existence? You can not look back at time and apply today’s knowledge like our reality has always been relevant. Before sin entered the world, we have no way of comprehending what that may have been like.
“Genesis is literal.”
Thanks for the help.
Im a big fan of Gerald Schroeder.
I am as well.
I don't disagree.
If I understand Gerald Schroeder correctly what he is pointing out is time is relative to perspective and from our perspective the Biblical timing of creation in 6 days is consistent with our measurements equaling 15 billion years for the existence of the universe.
As am I. shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
so let me get this straight the universe is flat which makes it infinite but the current matter expansion is finite but accelerating and the Torah and science agree on the time it took for that and space is stretching but we are near the end of times and time is slowing down as space stretches faster and i can see that people seem to be farther apart but they should have more time for each other and in the midst of all this expansion stretching and dilating His plan is coming together right? right.
I need a 'day' or so to think about it.
I read Hawking’s Brief History of Time and all I got from it was that time was hard to measure in the few moments after creation.
Since noone was standing there with a stop watch, I knew that already.
Per Torah, a day starts at sunset. With no sun, the first day had no start.
I am, among other things, a scientist and I believe the universe was created in 6 literal days, starting with “light.” I am not at all embarrassed by saying that.
Too many people have given up literal belief in God’s word because of the flimsiest of pseudo-science.
They are afraid they will appear backward, so they punish themselves, the opposite of Galileo’s persecution!
More people should read Gerald Schroeder. He can give them some clarity, leading to courage and a realization that science does not rule out anything important in God’s word, but in fact often supports it.
A leap of faith is still needed in this life, but it is not the naive leap the fearful think it is. Faith is both less and more than their unexamined and casual assumptions about it.
Sure. The "Big Bang" idea is a bumch of BS just like evolution. Having all the mass of the universe collapsed to a point would be the mothr of all black holes; nothing would ever "bang" its way out of that.
For that matter, all the idea was ever based on was the mistaken notion of interpreting cosmic redshift as universal expaansion, and Halton Arp has pretty much put that one to rest.
We actually have one planet (Venus) in our system which is ballpark for some sort of a 5K - 10K year age, and Venus LOOKS it: 900-degrees F surface temperature, 90-bar CO2 atmosphere, massive thermal imbalance, massive upwars IR flux, total lack of regolith etc. Since Earth and Mars do not look like that at all, you have to assume they aree substantially older than that, but not hundreds of millions or billions of years old.
My understanding is the first 5 1/2 days are not a part of the Jewish calender because time is described differently in those 5 1/2 days. I believe Rosh Hashana and the counting of time in the Jewish calender begins with Adam who God created on the 6th day.
However, David points out in Ps. that a 1,000 yrs is like a day for God which indicates to me that from God's perspective time is entirely different. Also, Moses differentiates in Duet 32:7 between "the days of old" and "the years of many generations".
I have no doubt that God created everything. I think it's our understanding of what a day is that causes us to miss some of the deeper messages.
As a scientist do you see order arise from chaos in an unguided system?
4For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night.
It’s one of my favorites!
This is what sends chills down my spine. I think this is such an interesting topic because we get little glimpses of how inspired Scripture really is.
Or even more radical - “before Abraham was, I AM”
There is a story about a horseless carriage being shown to a peasant for the first time. “Inside the carriage,” insisted the peasant, “Is a very small, powerful horse because there’s no such thing as a horseless carriage!”
Insisting on the Big Bang theory is like that peasant because some just can’t accept the idea of something from nothing.
That article gets posted here every so often. Worth looking at again.
I think you may have referred this to me years ago and I just glanced at it then. Years later I read it more diligently and started thinking about it.
As a “literalist”, I have no problem with a big bang per se. When G_d said “Let there be light!”, what would that event “look” like?
That all matter has some central origin - the “bang point” - seems logical enough...
Thanks, Mr. N. These words ring in my ears all these 30 years later.
The big bang idea is bad physics and bad theology rolled into a package. The idea of a supposedly omniscient God suddenly deciding it would be a cool thing to do to create a universe while the idea had nevr occurred to him previously, is basically just as idiotic as the idea of the mass of the universe being collapsed to a point and then banging its way out of the point. It doesn’t even matter whether this happened 6000 or 16,000,000,000 years ago, it’s still idiotic.
Schroeder makes similar points. Both scripture and physics have more wiggle room for God than is commonly acknowledged. If God wants 6 days from his perspective before creation to look like 17 billion years from today’s position that’s doable for him as the creator of physics. He can also do it in 6 literal days and “initiate” everything as though it has been going on for 17 billion years. I was being a bit dramatic the way I put it.
I agree with what you wrote, “I have no doubt that God created everything. I think it’s our understanding of what a day is that causes us to miss some of the deeper messages.”
What I really think is that if God ever lets me know the details of creation, whatever they are, they are going to be in agreement with scripture, and I will hit my forehead as though I forgot to drink a V-8, and think, “Oh, yeah....”
A problem I’m having with the “10,000 year old Earth” theory is that 10,000 years is 100 hundred-year lifespans back to back. As I gain perspective on what a century is, I realize 10,000 years really isn’t very long, and the world & universe we look at doesn’t fit in that box.
It’s all amazing. I am not so interested in being specific about exactly what’s happening though, as I am in noting that the truth of scripture is not ruled out by our observations (our science). Your own observations do not fail to fit.
Mars is old, successful, and on it’s way out...
Earth is mid-life, failed, unsuccessful and quarantined, BUT has received healing (from Jesus), and the cure is percolating here as the angels marvel...
Venus is at the beginning of its life, but it’s looking good so far, despite the enemy’s intrusions...
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." - Gen 1:1
Space/time does not pre-exist, it is created as the universe expands.
All of the steady state theories were debunked [by this discovery] and physical cosmologists turned instead to multi-verse, multi-world, cyclic, ekpyrotic, imaginary time models - all of which result in an infinite regress falsely demanding prior universes comply with the physical laws and constants of this one.
The only closed physical cosmology known to me is Max Tegmark's Level IV parallel universe which posits that 4D is a manifestation of mathematical structures which actually do exist outside of space and time.
And on this thread, TXnMA brought up isotropy v anisotropy - that "without anisotropy we could not exist; without isotropy we cannot survive."
In the first 300,000 years after the Big Bang from our present space/time coordinates, the universe was an isotropic hot watery soup.
If you read the article TXnMA presented at 66 and we discussed at 68 and 83 - and the additional article I posted at 68 - or listened to the sounds I linked at 68, you might have noticed that the Cosmic Microwave Background records the sound waves at the exact moment (300,000 years after the Big Bang from our space/time coordinates) at which photons decoupled from electrons and neutrons, atoms formed and light went its way.
And God said "Let there be light."
If you don't see this as evidence, we can't make you. But it practically screams to TXnMA and to me - and perhaps others on this thread.
By the way, light is used throughout Scripture as a metaphor for God's Shekinah glory. The metaphor is perfect because photons travel a "null path" - for the photon, no time elapses at all. [The photon is timeless. God is not bound by time either nor by space.] Space/time are part of the creation, not a restriction on or property of the Creator of them.
You and me both. As I age I am always doing mental comparisons such as "let me see, the Civil War was just 84 years before I was born; and Pearl Harbor is 71 years from today. So for kids I see walking around today WWII is just about as distant from them as the Civil War is from me." Makes most of history seem pretty recent.
Brilliant. This solidifies my thoughts on Einstein’s relativity and the relation to the 6 days.
I wish I could find a pastor that I disagreed with on the creation of the world in 6 days and apologize (I was a lot younger and less wiser then) to him. He would have loved this article.
I do that too. Great exercise to gain perspective.
Shoot, I’ll need a heckuva lot longer than that!
Several days, at least.
And how does it just so happen that the God that created this universe is a holy God without sin? Perfect in every way?
How did we get that fortunate?
Could it just as easily have been a god of evil?
That’s what I wonder.
Genesis is 'literal' but does not give the complete story. There is no date given when Genesis 1:1 began. Then in Genesis 1:2 we are told about the 'overthrow - casting down' of the rebel devil.
Sometime between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 is when that 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil' took root. So there was 'sin' even before the formation of the Adam in a flesh body.
Peter says that one day is as a thousand years with the LORD and a thousand years is as a day. Peter also says that according to the holy prophets there are three different heaven/earth worlds (ages) The first heaven/earth age was destroyed by a flood, and that is exactly what Genesis 1:2 states as well.
Solomon in Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
<10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said 'See, this is new?' it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things, neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
Genesis 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
No flesh being lived in a flesh body a full 'day' with the LORD. Then in Genesis 6 because of what the flesh beings participated in and with, their life span was cut to max 120 years.
The 'days' of creation are the LORD's work and while there is no doubt He could have performed His work in a 24 hour day, that is not what HE instructed His elect to pen.
We are not told when the soul/spirit intellect was created, just as we are not told the date when the first rebel rebelled, but it was before Genesis 1:2.
it is fabulous
must be read slowly, like the Bible
taking it in carefully, step by step
and you see the reality unfolding
it is enough for faith to accept on faith
that which it is not given to us to understand,
but that does not mean that everything
is not for our understanding;
it sometimes means we have just not had
the teaching & opportunuty to acquire
a greaer understanding;
Shroeder helps us obtain the latter two
there is no discrepancy between true science
and much of the bible; its more a lack of our
incomplete knowledge in the realm of one or the other
“Im a big fan of Gerald Schroeder.”
I’ve become one.
The idea of a supposedly omniscient God “suddenly deciding it would be a cool thing to do to”
says who, that G-d decided it would be a “cool thing”; from where (not the Bible) do you get than notion
“while the idea had nevr occurred to him previously”
again, says who; where in the bible or in science does it say there was no universe before the present one??? no where
“is basically just as idiotic as the idea of the mass of the universe being collapsed to a point and then banging its way out of the point”
what we don’t understand can always sound idiotic
“Venus is at the beginning of its life, but its looking good so far, despite the enemys intrusions...”
in the expected life and lifetime of the solar system, and as the sun is in its expansion phase, the sun will burn venus up when some life remains possible on earth
Why doesn't a hydrogen atom collapse into a neutral particle? The electromagnetic force is much stronger than gravity.
Maybe Earth will outlive Venus. It’s all speculation. I was not “seriesly” speculating about the actual nature of the planets. I was providing conversational fodder for varmintman, who had commented to me that Venus seems younger than Earth and Mars.
I was just over-summarizing CS Lewis’s Sci-Fi novel, “Perelandra.”
So the book’s a little off — it’s not much of a stretch to say that no green humans live on Venus either. But the books (”Out of the Silent Planet,” “Perelandra,” and “That Hideous Strength” are an interesting way for Lewis to help us fallen humans understand our own situation. God talks to us in many ways, including through all the analogies he has made for us.
I've had the same thoughts.
Thinking about this topic I've been reminded about Paul writing about how none have excuse because God is revealed in nature.
Rom. 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,...
Thankfully the Godhead is not as evidenced by His willingness to sacrifice His Son to redeem us.