Does The Orthodox Presbyterian Church use the Crucifix?

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church ^

[boatbums]

Can somebody help me with this attempt to promote idolizing the torture instrument of His agony?

Perhaps it is the place the Apostles have given to the cross that inspires these hymns. Verses such as:

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. (Galatians 6:14)

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. (I Cor. 1:17)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (I Cor. 1:18)

And Jesus' own words about the cross that WE carry when we follow him:

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. (Mark 8:34)

[verga]

The Catholics merely invent the meaning of words and give them new meanings to satisfy their theology. It is not so as used in the Greek and by the Greeks.

[Iscool]

By the way, even Christ taught us that the Bread and Wine become his precious body, blood, soul, and divinity. Look at what he said at the time. “Take and it this IS my body, my blood” not this represents, this IS.

Also if it was for show, why did many of the people there leave at that point? Why was it so hard for the people to hear?

No one left at that point...Read the bible and get the real story...

[Mrs. Don-o]

My dear boatbums, your explanation makes it all seem complicated --- and yes, I understand that your point is that the Catholic Church makes it all seem complicated -- but it's all comes down to a simple response, to me.

Christ says "This is My Body."

You say "Amen."

Or you don't.

That "Amen" does not mean "I have a postgraduate degree in Church-talky-ology" or "I just totally understand everything implied in this incomprehensible mystery." What, is my God no bigger than my hat size?

Scripture says that He is "the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world." The real action happens in eternity, where there are no befores and afters. That's why it can be the same action, by the same Christ, the same now and forever, inasmuch as we're talking about something that goes beyond this little hazelnut held in the hand of God, known as the physical Universe.

Y'know?

Good night now, and God bless you.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Christ says “This is My Body.”

You say “Amen.”

Or you don’t.”

---

Christ says, of the wine after allegedly turned into blood, “This fruit of the vine,” which he will drink with the Apostles “when I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of God.”

You say “Amen”

Or you don’t.

[Claud]

Amen. Well said. :)

[Iscool]

Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 6, 110 A.D.: Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God ... They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes

That was written at least 250 years after Ignatius died and your religion stuck Ignatius' name on it...

[Mrs. Don-o]

Amen. The physical properties —— taste, smell, color, alcohol -— of the wine are still there. Amen.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Amen. The physical properties —— taste, smell, color, alcohol -— of the wine are still there. Amen.”

---

Amen, Christ was not eating and drinking His own body and blood, and certainly would not continue to do so in heaven, but really meant it when He declared that the cup of the covenant well and truly remained wine.

[metmom]

His blood doesn’t exist in heaven. It was poured out here on earth 2,000 years ago or so.

[Iscool]

Clement of Rome (80 A.D.) in Corinthians 36:1 refers to the Eucharist as the ``offering of the gift.’’ St. Clement, bishop of Rome, 80 A.D., to the Corinthians, 40:

Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge

What is the source of this divine knowledge???

, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times.

Could you list those things which the Master commanded you guys to perform at appointed times???

He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services

Which sacrifices and services did the Master command you to perform???

, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours.

Please provide the times and hours the Master commanded you guys to perform these sacrifices...

He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will.

Can you provide a list of these 'wills' the Master commanded???

So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, but they follow the laws of the Master and do not sin.

Can you show us the laws of the Master in the scriptures???

For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed,

Where do we find a copy of a list of these ministrations???

and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity.

Levites in the church??? Can you point us to scripture, or anything that says there are Levites in the church???

[boatbums]

As I said, the problem is that thinking that "eternal" means "still going on." It doesn't.

Would "ever efficacious" do? That the sacrifice does not have to be represented in order to make it cover, or to be a propitiation for the current sins of the people, means that the ONE sacrifice of Christ IN time, on THAT very cross at Calvary, for ALL time was sufficient to render the sins of ALL time PAID IN FULL for those who receive it by faith.

[Iscool]

Anamnesis does NOT mean “to make present.” It literally means “to remember again.” Plato uses the same word for one of his philosophical theories, meaning “to remember again” in this same basic sense.

Thanks...So there is an understandable English translation for the word after all...

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Of course, it just becomes impossible to understand when Papists get through with it.

[Iscool]

Scripture says that He is "the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world." The real action happens in eternity, where there are no befores and afters. That's why it can be the same action, by the same Christ, the same now and forever, inasmuch as we're talking about something that goes beyond this little hazelnut held in the hand of God, known as the physical Universe.

Has to be befores and afters...Otherwise the Earth was created before the Earth was created...And I lived on that Earth before the foundation of the World...

I don't disagree that the concept of eternity is a mystery but I don't believe the Catholic religion is any where near to being close to understanding what that mystery might be...

Clearly God created time and exists within that time for our benefit if nothing else...Our time begins at the creation of the Earth and the book of Revelation tells us when that time for us will end...

[Iscool]

Christ says, of the wine after allegedly turned into blood, “This fruit of the vine,” which he will drink with the Apostles “when I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of God.”

Jesus drinking his own blood...Why not, it's the Catholic religion...

[Iscool]

Would "ever efficacious" do? That the sacrifice does not have to be represented in order to make it cover, or to be a propitiation for the current sins of the people, means that the ONE sacrifice of Christ IN time, on THAT very cross at Calvary, for ALL time was sufficient to render the sins of ALL time PAID IN FULL for those who receive it by faith.

Amen...We don't eat the body of Christ...We have faith that Jesus is the Christ and that he became the one time sacrifice for all, for all time...Faith... not hope, but conviction...

[boatbums]

Thank you, again, for your gracious response.

I agree with the basis of your point - that Jesus speaks and we, for all time and eternity, reply amen - surely, indeed, truly, let it be. But, just as in the example Paul gave to the Corinthians about someone speaking in an unknown tongue in the assembly of believers and then having no one there to interpret what the person said, he said that tongues-speaking person should keep silent, because no one there would be able to give them an "amen" for their words if nobody knew what was said (I Cor. 14).

Therefore, for us to say "amen" to anything, we need to understand what it is we are agreeing to. When Jesus had that last Passover meal with his Apostles, he took the bread - which was the third piece that was hidden under the cloth (Of the three matzoes, the middle matzah on the Seder plate is broken in two. The larger part is put aside for later use as the "afikoman" which is hidden in a napkin. After the meal, the half-matzah which had been “hidden,” set aside for the afikoman (“dessert”), is taken out and eaten. It symbolizes the Paschal lamb, which was eaten at the end of the meal.). It is this piece that he broke and handed out telling them, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." (Luke 22:19). The symbolism could not have been more precise - because he was telling them that HE was the Messiah that all the Passover observances in the past were done to remember HIM and his coming to be the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

When he said of the bread, "This is my body.", he was holding up a piece of that hidden third unleavened bread and he revealed to them that it was his body, that like that bread, would be broken for them (and the world) the very next day - only they didn't know that yet. The incomprehensible mystery is that ALL the feasts and holy days and sacrifices in the past of the Jewish people were being fulfilled BY him that very time! The bread didn't need to physically or spiritually or literally change to Jesus' actual flesh and blood and I believe they all there knew that. Jesus certainly didn't have to go into detail to explain to them what he meant - they got it. JUST as they got it when he first spoke of it as recorded in the gospel of John (because God had given it to them to see).

His "once for all" sacrifice doesn't need to be made present or re-presented, because by that one sacrifice he perfected FOREVER those that come to him in faith. The observance we do is to remind - or to keep ever before our faces - the love of God that was so great He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in him will NOT perish but HAVE everlasting life. That truth is so amazing and so awe inspiring that we CAN only say AMEN - let it be, so be it, verily, truly, YES GOD.

Hope you have a blessed rest of the week.

[Springfield Reformer]

With all due respect, nonsense. Eimi is simply the Greek verb of being. Estin is merely the third person singular form (”he/she/it is”), but eimi is first person singular (”I am”) of the same root (”see “I am the door” in John 10:7). It has no special Aristotelian meaning regarding the bread and wine, but any additional meaning must be found by inspecting the entire context of the term’s usage, and in this case no meaning even approximating transubstantiation can reasonably be extracted from the text.

[metmom]

“No replies.” = No surprise.....