Posted on 04/03/2013 3:43:07 PM PDT by NYer
Slight correction; the Septuagint was the Greek translation of the Old Testament, not the Hebrew. It should be noted that it was the Scripture read by the vast majority of the world's first century Jews, most of whom lived outside Israel.
As a side note it was this Scripture that St. Paul referenced when preaching the Gospel to both the Jews and the Gentiles in Asia minor, Greece and Italy. So when the Bereans searched Scripture it was the Septuagint they searched.
Peace be with you
“it proves itself”
As opposed to the Didache?
“The Bible stands on its own authority.”
Except that the Bible accords to itself no such authority. Who wrote the Bible? The early Church. Who put the first bible and the Canon together? The Church with Pope Damasus in 400 AD. Why is scripture authoritative? Because of the Church. You cannot argue that Scripture is authoritative and the Church itself is not anymore so than you can divorce Apostles from the Church.
Thanks for posting.
This link from the article looks extremely promising - for students of all ages:
http://www.rtforum.org/study/index.html
“There was no universal canon in the early church.”
I didn’t say universally church-accepted canon, I said universally accepted Hebrew canon, meaning the books which all Jews recognized as inspired Scripture.
“Then why doesn’t Eastern Orthodoxy exclude them? The motivation for their removal was a protestant novelty.”
You could say the decision to exclude them was a Protestant one, but the motivation certainly wasn’t, since the books were clearly in question for many centuries before Luther lived. Jerome tried to exclude them, was he a Protestant?
Interesting. An electronic copy should be available, but where?
I asked you this question: “Okay, exactly where does the Bible tell you 2 Timothy is scripture?”
Do you have an actual verse or not?
“The Bible claims to be God’s Word;”
No. Certains books IN the Bible claim that.
“it proves itself;”
Not on this point it doesn’t.
“the various books were cited as authoritatively God’s word in other books;”
False. The New Testament, for instance, never cited or quoted - if I recall correctly - Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, or the Song of Solomon.
“its prophecies all came true, except for the ones we still wait upon (Jesus’ second coming), it all agrees with itself; and the Holy Spirit causes us to recognize God’s very voice in it.”
Do you have a verse about 2 Timothy or not?
“Certainly we can see the early church so accepted it.”
Show me in the Bible where it says the “early church so accepted it.”
“Perhaps this trumps the “Scripture verifies itself” argument in your mind.”
There is no such argument of any validity really.
“But even Scripture details failures and want of right doctrine and living in the early church times.”
Just show me EXACTLY where it says 2 Timothy is scripture. Can you do it or not?
“So, while the church’s acceptance of the Bible is certainly reassuring, for me I can’t make the church’s acceptance the criteria for believing it. The Bible stands on its own authority.”
Show me where the Bible tells you - on its own authority - that Matthew wrote a gospel. After you fail to do that, and you will, show me where the Gospel of Matthew says it is inspired.
Get back to me when you actually can answer the simple questions I asked.
“Except that the Bible accords to itself no such authority.”
Oh no?
Heb 4:12 -
“For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”
Isaiah 55:11 -
“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.”
John 1:1-2 - “
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Seems to me that you are forgetting the Word of God is much more than a simple dusty tome compiled by men long ago. The Word of God IS God, and carries all of the authority of God, as God’s authority cannot be diminished.
“since the books were clearly in question for many centuries”
No, they were not. Jerome lived in the 4th century. That was 12 centuries prior to Luther.
“Jerome tried to exclude them, was he a Protestant?”
Jerome did not do that. Jerome’s job was to prepare the Latin Vulgate translation. To prepare the Vulgate, he had to get the best Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. For some books he had Hebrew manuscripts - for others he had Greek Manuscripts. Some of the books in the Old Testament were originally written in Greek - but Jerome didn’t know this. What he did know is that some had Greek manuscripts and others had Hebrew manuscripts.
He expressed his concern that he only had Greek and not Hebrew manuscripts for some and expressed that concern to Pope Damasus. Damasus included them in the canon, where they remained for 12 centuries prior to Luther.
Let me put it another way. Jerome was closer to the founding of the City, than Luther was to Jerome.
And you can infer from those references as to which books ought to be contained in the Canon?
gotta point out....don't catholics argue "we don't PRAY to mary...we ask her to intercede?"
well...seems to be a bit of gray area there.
No, I infer from those references that the Word of God reveals itself to man as it chooses, because the Word is God, and has full authority of God to do His bidding. It won’t return to Him without fulfilling His purpose, and nothing man can do can thwart His purpose.
They tell me that Scripture is self-proving, for God is self-proving. When he stood before Abram, or Noah, or Saul, he didn’t need any stamp of approval from a religious body, and neither does his Word. If a man met Christ and denied Him, it wasn’t because the evidence that Jesus was Christ was missing, and if a man reads the Bible and denies it is the Word of God, neither is that because the evidence of the provenance is missing from the Bible.
Then why do you tear parts out?
Any way you try to slice it, there was a question about the authenticity, and inspiration about the books long before Luther showed up. To paraphrase Mr. Joel, Luther didn’t start the fire.
I didn’t tear anything out. I read the Apocrypha with an open mind, just like I read the Scriptures, and most of the pseudoepigraphia and other related literature. The divine nature of the OT and NT is self-evident, while the others are, at best, partially, and at worst wholly the uninspired work of men.
If there is some vital divine message that is in those other works that I failed to detect, then I am comfortable that God, for His reasons, chose not to reveal it to me.
What do they call it when you dig up something that’s been dead 12 centuries old and then try to bring it back to life?
I thought it was Jesus’ job to intercede for us.
The Apocrypha was part of the King James translation. In fact, it was the first part finished.
“The divine nature of the OT and NT is self-evident, while the others are, at best, partially, and at worst wholly the uninspired work of men.”
By definition if this were so we wouldn’t be having this argument. :)
Unsurprisingly the list of books that you regard as ‘self evidently true’ coincides with the list of books that you regard as authoritative. Since your list differs from my list, I can only conclude that scripture isn’t ‘self-evidently inspired’.
“You cannot argue that Scripture is authoritative and the Church itself is not anymore so than you can divorce Apostles from the Church.”
No, but you can argue as to what the relative degrees of authority are. Christ obviously had greater authority than the Apostles who followed Him, who had greater authority than the disciples who followed them. Similarly, the Scriptures, being the Word of God, carry greater authority than the Church which follows them. You claim the Church “wrote” the Bible, but the Bible is clear that its author is God, and He doesn’t share a credit with anyone else.
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