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Pope Francis: a man of joy and humility, or harsh and unbending? (baffled Guardian UK asks)
The Guardian (UK) ^ | Friday 15 March 2013 | Sam Jones, Uki Goni and Jonathan Watts

Posted on 03/27/2013 7:20:03 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o

[big snip]

Many Jesuits have been lukewarm at best ...the distrust stems from Francis's six years as Jesuit provincial of Argentina ...He was fiercely opposed to liberation theology.

"As a provincial, he was extremely strict and fairly conservative, which goes against the grain of the society," said [historian Michael] Walsh.

Fr. Jose Maria Sang, who recalls his former mentor as an earnest, well-prepared teacher with a strong spiritual orientation, also believes that those seeking to pigeonhole the new pope as conservative or progressive are missing the point.

"These terms are political, not religious," he said. "It is better to look at what Bergoglio has done since becoming a bishop – the concern he has shown for the poor and for street dwellers."

Francis... is a familiar figure in a giant slum in Buenos Aires where 45,000 people live in extreme poverty. For 15 years, Bergoglio rode the bus, and then walked in normal priest's robes through the dangerous neighbourhood to celebrate mass...

"I would say you'd find a photo of him in 60% of the homes in 21-24," said Father Juan Isasmendi... "He is a true man of God, he baptised so many children, he gave communion himself to thousands here....he was a father to so many people, a father to us priests."

Then-Cardnal Bergoglio on bus in Buenos Aires

Despite his missionary vigour, however – and a readiness to engage with the secular world– Francis remains an outspoken opponent of abortion, divorce, women's rights and euthanasia.

"A pregnant woman is not carrying a toothbrush in her womb, or a tumour," he once said. "Science shows us that the entire genetic code is present from conception. It's not therefore a religious issue, but scientifically based morality, because we are in the presence of a human being."

(Excerpt) Read more at guardian.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: bergoglio; jesuit; pope
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I usually avoid the Guardian, the most left-wing major-circulation rag in the UK, but this one sorta captured their category confusion: Pope Francis is conservative "but" he's close to the poor; he engages the secular world "but" he's spiritual; he's a missionary "but" "despite that" he's "an outspoken opponent of abortion, divorce, women's rights and euthanasia."

The more they look at this taxonomically-challenging specimen --- like an exotic life-form discovered on a different planet --- the more I like this guy Jorge Bergoglio.

1 posted on 03/27/2013 7:20:03 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: piusv; Dr. Brian Kopp; nickcarraway

Enjoy


2 posted on 03/27/2013 7:21:12 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Schola cantorum, with a bit of percussion.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I really thought the new Pope had promise then he said “islam and Christianity” worship the same God.


3 posted on 03/27/2013 7:23:39 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

He doesn’t want women to be priests, so he opposes women’s rights? I assume this is what its talking about, as abortion is already mentioned. Since when is it a ‘right’ to be a priest? Our world is beyond crazy.


4 posted on 03/27/2013 7:24:03 PM PDT by Viennacon
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To: svcw

Get into a cab of muslim taxi driver....start a convo on theology and ask them if we worship the same God. I have several times. It is a resounding NO by them.


5 posted on 03/27/2013 7:32:25 PM PDT by RushIsMyTeddyBear (Great vid by ShorelineMike! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOZjJk6nbD4&feature=plcp)
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To: svcw

Ahh, two posts before the lies start.


6 posted on 03/27/2013 7:35:35 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: Viennacon

It is. Everything is upside-down.


7 posted on 03/27/2013 7:35:57 PM PDT by grimalkin (“Once abolish the God and the government becomes the God.” G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
“harsh and unbending”

The articles by media people who are without virtue or spirituality trying to judge the Holy Father is ridiculous. The only thing evident from this confused and almost incoherent article is that the author is totally ignorant of holiness and is trying pigeonhole the Pope into a place in his political order.

The term “harsh and unbending” would be comical if it wasn't so pathetic. “Harsh and unbending” means having strong moral values and standing by them.

8 posted on 03/27/2013 7:36:44 PM PDT by detective
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To: JCBreckenridge

What lie?
Pope said it.
If the reports from several news stories are incorrect then please provide the correct ones.


9 posted on 03/27/2013 7:37:18 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

So, ...he’s opposed to things that go against Catholic teachings? That’s shocking.

...and he reaches out to the poor? Another shock in a Christian.

What’s next, he believes in God? That can’t be good.


10 posted on 03/27/2013 7:42:31 PM PDT by MediaMole
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To: Mrs. Don-o
"These terms are political, not religious," he said.

BINGO.
11 posted on 03/27/2013 7:43:55 PM PDT by Hilda
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To: RushIsMyTeddyBear

Ha! I do that too - discuss theology with Muslim cab drivers.
Usually a good spirited discussion and makes the ride pass quicker. I always joke that I give Christian cabbies a bigger tip.


12 posted on 03/27/2013 7:47:33 PM PDT by Ouchthatonehurt ("When you're going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill)
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To: svcw

Citation, please? Google “Pope Francis Muslims same God” and you get nothing like that as an actual quote.


13 posted on 03/27/2013 7:55:54 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

The Holy Father is not a bomb-throwing revolucionista. The Guardian weeps.


14 posted on 03/27/2013 7:58:11 PM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“He was fiercely opposed to liberation theology.”

All the more reason to respect him.


15 posted on 03/27/2013 8:07:05 PM PDT by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
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The secular media just cannot understand that a person can hold principled convictions about the poor and rejected along with the belief that government is not the answer to life’s problems and evils. To them, a secular, humanistic “compassion”, which is really about control and power, is the only way “help.”


16 posted on 03/27/2013 8:16:57 PM PDT by Arkansas Toothpick
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To: svcw
St.John Damascene, an educated, devout 7th century Christian saint who observed Muslims at close hand all his life, astutely reported that the Koran is a mash-up of garbled and fragmentary notions from the Jewish Scriptures, the Christian Scriptures, and other sources. He observed Islam to be a heretical offshoot of Christianity.

Here's a list of figures common to the Muslim and Christian scriptures. In each case, like a photoshopped picture: the same figure, but with features missing, added, distorted.

God (Allah; same word used for God by Aramaic, Syriac and Arabic-speaking Christians and Mizrahi Jews, Alâhâ)
Aaron (Hārūn)
Abel (Hābīl)
Abraham (Ibrāhīm)
Adam (Ādam)
David (Dāwūd)
Elijah (Ilyās)
Gabriel (Jibrīl)
Isaac (Isḥāq)
Ishmael (Ismā‘īl)
Jacob (Ya‘qūb)
Jesus (‘Īsā)
John the Baptist (Yaḥyā)
Jonah (Yūnus)
Joseph (Yūsuf)
Mary (Maryam)
Miriam (Mūsā's sister)
Moses (Mūsā)
Noah (Nūḥ)
Satan or Devil (Shayṭān or Iblīs )
Solomon (Sulaymān)

Identity? No. But points of comparison. Maybe like a photoshopped picture of the same entity, yet comprehensively altered, warped. Nobody--- certainly not Pope Francis --- would say they were identical.

17 posted on 03/27/2013 8:20:44 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Allah FUBAR.)
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To: Campion

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/is-it-the-popes-private-opinion-that-muslims-worship-the-same-god


18 posted on 03/27/2013 9:22:11 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: svcw

So what are the three monotheistic religions?

Judaism
Islam (the true Islam)
Catholicism/Christianity


19 posted on 03/27/2013 10:01:12 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Campion
Citation, please? Google “Pope Francis Muslims same God” and you get nothing like that as an actual quote.

Try:

There was just a FR thread from this last Monday with the title Christians, Muslims, and the "One God"

First few sentences;

Last week, Pope Francis received a collection of world religious leaders in his first ecumenical and interreligious event. His address to them contained diplomatic niceties and specific expressions of good will aimed at Orthodox, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims.

His remarks to the latter recognized that Muslims “worship the one living and merciful God, and call upon him in prayer.” In this he echoed the 1964 dogmatic constitution Lumen Gentium, which gave a nod to “the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

Now, both Lumen Gentium 16 and Pope Francis’s words have a pastoral rather than doctrinal purpose. Their aim is to build interreligious bridges by generously acknowledging whatever can be found to be true in other faiths—not to make precise pronouncements about their theology. That said, Lumen Gentium is an exercise of the ordinary Magisterium, and even casual statements from a pope (be it this one from Francis or similar ones made by his predecessors) shouldn’t be taken lightly.

[below] From http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/03/20/pope_francis:_discourse_to_representatives_of_the_churches,_ecclesia/en1-675184

I greet and thank cordially all of you, dear friends belonging to other religious traditions; firstly the Muslims, who worship the one living and merciful God, and call upon Him in prayer. I really appreciate your presence, and in it I see a tangible sign of the wish to grow in recipricol trust and in cooperation for the common good of humanity.

20 posted on 03/27/2013 10:25:51 PM PDT by BlueDragon (the beatings will continue until morale improves)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Nobody--- certainly not Pope Francis --- would say they were identical.

...but that wasn't quite the issue...forthere wasn't the claim that the new pope said they were "identical"...

However, he did say;

according to
21 posted on 03/27/2013 10:32:11 PM PDT by BlueDragon (the beatings will continue until morale improves)
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To: JCBreckenridge

What lies? besides...here on the religion forum calling other thread participants liars is prohibited, for reason that those sort of accusations lead to flamewars.

As example, I won't say that you yourself were lying when you were directly insinuating that another was lying, but more properly point out, in this instance I am persuaded to believe, you were merely incorrect.

So ease up on the hair trigger defensive response mechanism...and don't look now...but you just shot yourself in the foot. BWAAHAHHAA.

Look both ways before crossing the street maybe? And leave the flamebaiting accusations AT HOME.

Sister Mary Elephant has a word she'd like to share. word

22 posted on 03/27/2013 11:06:28 PM PDT by BlueDragon (the beatings will continue until morale improves)
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To: BlueDragon

Unsubstantiated horsecrap is permitted to stand while those who call it out are not?

If there’s proof, I want to see it. No proof - it should be taken down.


23 posted on 03/28/2013 1:55:23 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: svcw

Then prove it.


24 posted on 03/28/2013 1:56:41 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: BlueDragon

I would like to see one thread where the discussion stays on the topic rather then opening up the thread, and seeing the second post engaging in the usual muckraking.

This is why we have Caucus threads in the first place, so that we can actually read and enjoy them. If you don’t like the Pope - please go somewhere else.


25 posted on 03/28/2013 1:58:11 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

This is Robert Spencer’s website:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/


26 posted on 03/28/2013 4:38:25 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I like that picture in the article, which shows Pope Francis doing what he does best, being pastorial.


27 posted on 03/28/2013 4:42:36 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: BlueDragon; svcw; Ouchthatonehurt
Don't you agree that the Muslims hold many distorted beliefs and wrong concepts about the Creator of all things of whom they speak?
28 posted on 03/28/2013 6:32:36 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Allah FUBAR.)
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To: JCBreckenridge

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/is-it-the-popes-private-opinion-that-muslims-worship-the-same-god


29 posted on 03/28/2013 7:05:49 AM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: JCBreckenridge

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3000851/posts


30 posted on 03/28/2013 7:12:25 AM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Don't you agree that the Muslims hold many distorted beliefs and wrong concepts about the Creator of all things of whom they speak?

I think you described it well. There was one biblical figure left out of your list that is significant to Islam. They put that person, a son after the manner of flesh, a literal bastard, in the place of the son after the manner of promise.

I'll put a link here to Genesis 22 though I'm confident that you know that story.

For centuries, the Muslims have contended the scripture was changed. It's a nonsensical claim, for there are more than enough existing copies of Genesis which pre-exist Muhammed by centuries.


31 posted on 03/28/2013 7:55:18 AM PDT by BlueDragon (the beatings will continue until morale improves)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I think the answer is, yes.


32 posted on 03/28/2013 7:57:22 AM PDT by Triple (Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
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To: JCBreckenridge
Unsubstantiated horsecrap is permitted to stand while those who call it out are not?

But the evidence was presented on this thread BEFORE my own reply to you...all you would have to do is to have scrolled up just a teensy bit, and the direct quote was right above the reply I sent to you.
How about a little acknowledgement of your own error, huh?Or is that too much to ask.

If there’s proof, I want to see it. No proof - it should be taken down.

There was proof. But even if there wasn't, you don't get to get your way, and have posts removed just because they rub you the wrong way. Remove yourself from the religion forum if you can't handle it.

33 posted on 03/28/2013 8:00:53 AM PDT by BlueDragon (the beatings will continue until morale improves)
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To: JCBreckenridge
I would like to see one thread where the discussion stays on the topic

That would be nice. But who then would be bound? Yourself?

rather then opening up the thread, and seeing the second post engaging in the usual muckraking.

So now it's downgraded to muckraking? Whatever happened to it being "a lie"?

This is why we have Caucus threads in the first place,

This isn't a caucus thread, noOb. See to it when behind those walls there is no sniping at others, no denegrations, no idle comments concerning others. The Mormons had their caucus priviliges pulled for just such sort of monkeying around.

... so that we can actually read and enjoy them. If you don’t like the Pope

I don't have anything particular dislike of the current occupant of that office, nor much the previous either. Stop with the mind reading and attributing motive. Those sort of things also lead to flamewars.

- please go somewhere else.

Just where do you get off?

34 posted on 03/28/2013 8:14:30 AM PDT by BlueDragon (the beatings will continue until morale improves)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; MarineMom613; Ron C.; wolfman23601; ColdOne; navymom1; Pat4ever; RIghtwardHo; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

35 posted on 03/28/2013 8:15:55 AM PDT by narses
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To: BlueDragon

My take is that officially the Church sees Islam as a false religion.

My evidence:

There is no Saint Muhammad, and his ‘revelation’ is not a certified miracle.

For Muhammad’s visions to not be declared a miracle by the church some or all of the following have to be true.

- The Church never got around to looking into these events (not possible)

- The Church found that supernatural visitation did not happen (Muhammad made it up or dreamed it)

- The Church found that the visions were supernatural but not Devine because they are in direct conflict with the true teachings of God (satan involved)

To put is plainly, if the Church’s official position was that the one true God spoke directly to Muhammad, then we would have a St. Muhammad.


36 posted on 03/28/2013 8:15:57 AM PDT by Triple (Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Pope Francis: a man of joy and humility, or harsh and unbending?

****************************

He is a gift from God.

37 posted on 03/28/2013 8:37:13 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Triple
My take is that officially the Church sees Islam as a false religion.

Yeah, but they have to be careful how they say it (or heads will quite literally roll).

So such kind comments towards Islamic people themselves as have been highlighted should be seen in wider context...

I don't know that the way several successive popes in a row have spoken towards Muslims is altogether wrong. There is much to be consider.

One thing I do know...that even as there are a great many Muslims who can be easily agitated & stirred up, those fields are also ripe to the harvest. 'Trouble is...one has to be very careful how they go about scything, for there are some hard stony places that can set off sparks when hit, starting fires that burn in bad ways...

38 posted on 03/28/2013 8:46:13 AM PDT by BlueDragon (the beatings will continue until morale improves)
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To: BlueDragon

“Yeah, but they have to be careful how they say it (or heads will quite literally roll).

So such kind comments towards Islamic people themselves as have been highlighted should be seen in wider context...” - BD

I totally agree.

The Church has to use diplomacy regarding Islam.

However, after scraping away all the varnish, there is no denying that there is no St. Muhammad. (and there are only a few reasons that would be the case.)


39 posted on 03/28/2013 8:55:45 AM PDT by Triple (Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
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To: BlueDragon

Someone starts an informative thread about the new pope and the second comment attacks him? Yeah, real ‘balanced coverage’ there. :)


40 posted on 03/28/2013 9:50:05 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: BlueDragon

“little acknowledgement of your own error”

It’s the job of the person making the allegation to provide substantiation.

Why are you attacking someone for challenging an unsubstantiated allegation? You should be thanking me. Isn’t that what we are here for - or is it all about lies and muckraking?


41 posted on 03/28/2013 9:51:33 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: BlueDragon

Thank you, Blue Dragon. Your post #31 was exactly right.


42 posted on 03/28/2013 9:52:41 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops." - St. John Chrysostom, Bishop)
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To: Triple

I always like getting to “yes”. :o)


43 posted on 03/28/2013 9:54:09 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops." - St. John Chrysostom, Bishop)
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To: BlueDragon; Triple; Campion; svcw
“worship the one living and merciful God, and call upon him in prayer.” - note that that says the Moslems say they worship this. And also note that it does not say that they worship the same God as us. A fine point, cutting short of saying they worship the same God as us.

They say they are monotheists and worship One god, worship a living god and worship a merciful god. The statement affirms that they do worship a one god, but does not say they worship the same God as us.

44 posted on 03/28/2013 10:49:40 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: BlueDragon; Triple
Islam in my opinion needs to be destroyed militarily. Not a very Christian idea, but we need to nuke Mecca and Medina.

islam believes in triumphalism -- and you can't blame them for thinking that as Islam until the 19th century was one of continuous triumphs

Mohammed got lucky in the 7th century and burst on the scene just when the Romans and the Persians had bled each other nearly to death. The Roman army in Egypt and Syria hadn't been paid for a century and the united Arabs could walk in and take over

They then swept in a massive blitzkrieg into north AFrica, Hispania, Sicily, even southern Italy

The Arabs then consolidated and by the 10th century they were losing out with the Romans winning back lands, but then they started converting Turks and the turkic bloodthirstiness combined with Islamic fervor was able to push into the Balkans

Their losses to the Slavs from 1683 through to the Russians crushing the Turks and Iranis in the 1700s and 1800s was shocking, but not shocking enough

The Moslems burned Edessa, the holiest center of the Assyrian Church of the East. They conquered Alexandria, once THE central point of Christendom, then the spiritual center of Oriental Orthodoxy. They conquered Constantinople, the center of Eastern Orthodoxy

Now they hit Western Christendom

We need to hit back and straight at the heart of the beast -- Mecca and Medina.

45 posted on 03/28/2013 10:58:07 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: BlueDragon; Mrs. Don-o
What is interesting is that for 2000 years before Mohammed, no-one contended that it was Ishmael, not Isaac.

In Mohammed's time there were plenty of Jews in the Nejd and Medina was a Jewish city. He caught upon this idea of using Ishmael to rally together the various Bedouins...

46 posted on 03/28/2013 11:00:55 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Cronos

Ok


47 posted on 03/28/2013 11:01:27 AM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Cronos

Thomas Jefferson said there was only one way to deal with islam.
He added there is only one solution in dealing with people who’s only goal is to kill you.


48 posted on 03/28/2013 11:03:37 AM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Right on Mrsdono.

Francis sounds like a rare breed for sure; a Jesuit that is conservative. I sure they were looking for a leftist berserker, and they are “Deeply Saddened,” as Dassole would say.


49 posted on 03/28/2013 12:32:35 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Cronos

If they worship the Moon god, they sure don’t worship the same God as we do.


50 posted on 03/28/2013 12:34:57 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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