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Study: 'Toxic Perfectionism' Major Part of LDS Women's Depression
KSL.com ^ | Feb. 1, 2013 | KSL.com

Posted on 02/14/2013 3:33:33 PM PST by fattigermaster

OREM —Striving for perfection may be driving some female members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to depression, one researcher says.

Utah Valley University professor Kris Doty looked at depression among LDS women, finding that "toxic perfectionism" was one major factor of depression reported by the group. The other four factors, Doty found, were genetics, history of abuse, family relationships and feeling judged by others.

Over a one-year period, Doty and her colleagues looked at clinically diagnosed depressed women who identified as LDS. Seven of the women were using multiple medications to treat their depression, 19 were on only one medication and 10 had participated in therapy. Women in the study said the church's teachings about perfection led to painful misinterpretations wherein many women believed they could not make mistakes. This belief, Doty said, caused them to "become hyper-competitive and anxious."

At a symposium on the topic Thursday, study participants said church leaders were reminding women —especially mothers —that they are not required to be perfect.


TOPICS: Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: inman; lds; mentalhealth; mormon
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Utah LDS Antidepressant Use/Utah Has Highest Rate in US

Antidepressants Flow Freely in Utah as 1 in 5 Women Partakes

1 posted on 02/14/2013 3:33:41 PM PST by fattigermaster
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To: fattigermaster

More bull manure.


2 posted on 02/14/2013 3:40:19 PM PST by ravenwolf
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To: ravenwolf
More bull manure.

9 out of 10 doctors (outside of Utah) do not recommend taking bull manure as an anti-depressant.

3 posted on 02/14/2013 3:47:12 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: fattigermaster

It isn’t just the irrational striving to be perfect but, worse that of proving themselves worthy and well qualified.

Worthy and well qualified are concepts created by men that enslave you and constantly push who you really are to something someone else’s judges you to be or not.

Yuge waste of time this approval and being adjudged and either denied or given a card enabling you entry into all churches within LDS.

The matter is even foreign to God, who tells us “There is none worthy, no, not one”.

Why should anyone have to prove they are a genuine and worthy Mormon, which implies all others are not?

God treats us all equally under his judgement and through his love.

All are his children and all Christians come to God the Father in Jesus name.

God, being the ultimate arbiter and having the biggest ego decides what a thing is and what a thing is not.

For instance, on the issue of salvation. God’s mercy, through Christ, is a gift given to any why ask.

It cannot be earned, it cannot be repaid and it can’t be taken away or qualified by anyone but God.

Prefer those who have any question regarding how God views us to the Three Great Parables in Matthew 13.

Our intent is what is important in our hearts. No man May judge that and should never be allowed the imprimatur to. For they, like the of us, are flawed and have no legitimate claim of sovereignty over our soul, much less undermining our spirit.

If you want to know if you are doing life right ask God. That’s an answer that is always answered quickly, in fact, immdiately.

My dos centavos ....


4 posted on 02/14/2013 3:51:24 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: fattigermaster

Not being able to achieve perfection through any amount of human effort can be depressing.
Add to that the mormon cultural issues of appearing perfect.
Add to that the pressure that if your husband doesn’t call your “secret name”, you won’t be resurrected to spend eternity with him.

Drugs. Common in Utah, as numerous articles posted on FR have indicated.

And yet they cling to their hopes of perfectionism, instead of turning to the real Christ as Savior and real Gospel of Grace.

Legalism and heresy always die hard.


5 posted on 02/14/2013 3:54:52 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: ravenwolf
MORMON WOMEN, PROZAC™, AND THERAPY...by Kent Ponder PhD
6 posted on 02/14/2013 4:09:32 PM PST by fattigermaster (When tigers hunt, the jackals profit...when tigers sleep, the jackals rule.)
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To: fattigermaster
This is interesting. And sad.

I'm a Mormon, have been my whole life. I have NEVER understood this kind of depression and guilt among LDS women. I know it exists among a lot of women of my faith. I've heard women say stuff like "I feel like I'm not doing enough. I could have done more." It makes me want to grab them by the shoulders and say:

"Stop it! God does NOT expect you to be perfect. He knows it's impossible for ANY human to be perfect. Only one person was perfect, Jesus Christ. Do the best you can, but don't beat yourself up when you screw up. We all screw up. Accept it. Accept the grace that Jesus provides to make up for our imperfections and mistakes. That's what He's there for."

This kind of depression and guilt is a trap they allow themselves to fall into, nothing more. I wish more LDS women would see it for what it is and realize that God loves ALL of us, despite our failings. That's why He gave his Son. That brings me joy. So why are these women so miserable? I think they forget those simple words of John 3:16.

Just my two cents.

7 posted on 02/14/2013 4:19:05 PM PST by Luna (Evil will not triumph. God is at the helm.)
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To: Luna

The heresies of mormonism lead to this problem - and it is widespread. For example, here is something from BYU:

http://universe.byu.edu/beta/2013/02/12/be-ye-therefore-perfect/

A sample...

““In the LDS Church it’s like, ‘I feel depressed,’ and it’s like, ‘Oh you must not be righteous, maybe you should go serve somebody and then you would be,’” Lindsay (name changed) said. She told Doty how feeling judged by others contributed to her depression. Lindsay, age 32, also said, “It’s just something we do to ourselves, that’s not coming down from the prophet, it’s not coming down from God. That’s just us comparing ourselves to each other and having that perfect standard.”

“Doty found that Lindsay’s struggles were common among 75 percent of volunteers in the study. All 20 women are residents of Utah County, all 20 are self-described as active Latter-day Saints, and all 20 have been diagnosed with depression by a medical doctor or mental health professional.”

“Fifteen of the 20 women felt like they were under a microscope in this community,” Doty said. Another 15 also “struggled with toxic perfectionism.”

“Nineteen of the 20 women said they used antidepressants in their treatment. “It’s like it’s ok, and in some cases a badge of honor, to be on an antidepressants,” Doty said of the social acceptance of medication. She fears many women compare themselves to others, sometimes measuring their struggles based on the dosage they take.”


8 posted on 02/14/2013 5:22:35 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: Luna
Here is another perspective from a former mormon who has left.

http://exmormonmavens.com/smile-til-happy/

A sample...

"Well the standard answer is that LDS women are overworked, heading large families, and struggling to meet too-high expectations of perfection. But is that what is really going on? The report states that “three realities are much more basic. In the Mormon Church: 1) for females, ‘One size fits all,’ 2) females obey males from birth to death, and 3) females lack control of their own life choices.” What follows is a laundry list of expectations and rules Mormon women are to uphold to be in good standing with the Mormon Church:

• Be respectfully, politely, humbly and gratefully subservient to Mormon males in personal demeanor, activities, beliefs, plans and thought.

• Not be, nor aspire to be, nor hope to be, independent from authoritarian males, nor independent in thought.

• Attend male-directed religious services.

• Participate in male-directed activities. (Even female-led projects are organized under male authorities.)

• Attend male-directed weekday seminary classes in addition to academic school.

• Obey all male-hierarchy-generated directives.

• Submit to male-originated personal-matter (including sexual) private interviews.

• Obtain a Patriarchal Blessing which usually promises becoming a mother in Zion if faithful and obedient.

• Do genealogy research on male-headed (patriarchal) family lineages.

• Marry an LDS man in an LDS temple–and live in a state worthy to do so beforehand.

• Accept counsel from her husband– and not as just his opinion–but as God-inspired revelation.

• Look to her husband as essential to her entry into the best category of Heaven.

• Have children, more being far better than few.

• Raise all of her children in this exact-same religious and social system.

• Attend only the chapel assigned to her residence address, regardless of preference.

• Accept that if she and family attend any other than this chapel, she and they cannot enter Mormon temples.

• Know that her husband may, in the next life, marry numerous additional wives.

• Know that she may not marry any additional husband, here (if still married to the first one) or hereafter.

• Accept callings to work in church, auxiliary and welfare-project organizations.

• Make several forms of financial contributions, ten percent tithing being only mandatory one; but with pressure to make even more.

• Teach her children to become missionaries to convert other individuals into this same system.

• Teach this same system to her grandchildren.

• Teach her daughters and granddaughters to obey males at home and at church.

• Never openly criticize any doctrine, practice, directive or male authority related to any of the above.

And that is the one-size-fits-all-females laundry list of expectations. Each LDS female gains and retains respect, and even acceptance, only by adhering to these behaviors and attitudes, assigned to her by  others, most often males, rather than freely chosen by herself. And, her sole judges on her efforts and merits are men placed in authority above her by what she’s told is God’s Divine Plan.


9 posted on 02/14/2013 5:29:13 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: Luna

Reminds me of a story.

The Devil held a garage sale, and put out some of his tools on a table. A guy came by to shop and asked the Devil about them. “Well, this one is temptation. This one is resentment...” and so on. “They are all things that bring people closer to me and further from The Big Kahuna.”

Then, the shopper noticed one tool that was really pricey, and he asked why.

“That one is despair. It’s an important tool for me, because it is one of the few that works well on good people.”


10 posted on 02/14/2013 5:42:21 PM PST by married21
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To: fattigermaster
By grace you are saved, after all you can do, (2 Nephi 25:23)

THIS is why LDS are depressed...."after all you can do"???? Thats not grace! WHat if I could have tithed 21 percent instead of 20? I did not do all I could do, did I? THis is in no way Grace, this is WORKS.

11 posted on 02/14/2013 11:03:54 PM PST by bigjoesaddle (The point ALWAYS forgotten is... If THEY surrender, we stop fighting, if WE surrender, they kill us!)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
““In the LDS Church it’s like, ‘I feel depressed,’ and it’s like, ‘Oh you must not be righteous, maybe you should go serve somebody and then you would be,’” Lindsay (name changed) said. She told Doty how feeling judged by others contributed to her depression. Lindsay, age 32, also said, “It’s just something we do to ourselves, that’s not coming down from the prophet, it’s not coming down from God. That’s just us comparing ourselves to each other and having that perfect standard.”

This is her perception, that others are judging her. My question to her would be: So what if other people are judging you? Why are you so concerned about what other people think when you have no control over what other people think?

These women put the pressure on themselves, which is wrong. She admits that it's something she does to herself, which means she chooses to continue in her negative thought patterns. She chooses to continue to participate in the stupid, useless, and destructive Compare Myself to Others game rather than let go of whatever issues she's hanging onto.

12 posted on 02/15/2013 7:29:23 AM PST by Luna (Evil will not triumph. God is at the helm.)
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To: married21

Great story. And so true! Despair and Disouragement. Satan’s two best tools.


13 posted on 02/15/2013 7:32:31 AM PST by Luna (Evil will not triumph. God is at the helm.)
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To: Luna; colorcountry; greyfoxx39; reaganaut

Luna, I agree that she is experiencing problems because she is being judged by others. It is easy to say, who cares? But of course, the “others” are her peers in her mormon family, her peers at her mormon barracks, her religion that requires performance to achieve the highest levels of heaven, “marriage to her husband in eternity”, entrance into a temple to see her kids married some day, elders overseeing her, obedience at every turn and the expectation that she will smile and be happy.

All of those things stem from her religion in the heresy of mormonism.

Now, I’m not a woman and can’t speak directly to what it is like to go through that, and I’ve never been trapped in mormonism. I do have friends here who have been on the hamster wheel of mormon worthiness and they may want to comment.

cc: colorcountry, greyfoxx39, reaganaut, all delightful women of God who now know His truth. If any of you would like to comment about your own experience inside the mormonic borg of performance as a woman, feel free. If not, I understand.


14 posted on 02/15/2013 7:42:19 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
That's funny that you mentioned the borg. You actually have a point. There is a part of Mormon culture (which I differentiate from Mormom doctrine) that we all have to be the same, we all have to be perfect women. However, that's an attitude I steer away from. I refuse to get caught up in it. Our journey on this earth is a very individual one. Salvation is individual, not collective. We're not the borg.

I'm a never-been-married LDS woman pushing 40. My chances of getting married probably aren't that great. Do I feel as though I can't get into the highest level of Heaven because I don't have a husband? Nope! Why? Because I have hope in Christ. He is the Way.

I've never felt pressue by my male leaders to be perfect, to get married, to go to the temple, to pay more than just tithing, to do this, to do that. I've turned down a calling before and didn't get in trouble for it.

I just want LDS women to know that they don't have to put the pressure on themselves. Do the best you can with what you have and leave the rest to God. Everybody's "best" is going to be different.

obedience at every turn

God wants men and women both to obey His commandments. We're His children and He wants all of us to return back to Him. I think that God has a special place in His heart for His daughters. I think it pains Him to see these women push themselves into depression when it doesn't have to be that way.

15 posted on 02/15/2013 8:44:33 AM PST by Luna (Evil will not triumph. God is at the helm.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; Luna

When I was a young Mormon mother of 5, yes 5 children, I was under so much pressure. I exercised every day to keep my weight at 130 pounds, I baked bread three times a week, I rotated cleaning one of my three bathrooms every third day, so I cleaned a bathroom every day. I washed three loads of laundry every day, and mopped my bathroom and kitchen floors every other day. Every day was the focus of special cleaning for one of the rooms in my house so that I could keep up with continual cleaning. This was all done in order that I would keep the appearances of a good, clean, Godly woman.

I had five children ranging in ages from pre-school to Junior High. I had three boys in baseball, and a daughter in dance and Cheerleading. They all needed to get to practices and games, so that there was a great deal of driving, running and coordinating. Then there was the homework - endless homework with the kids and keeping them at their ultimate performance...this so that we could show how successful, good and Godly we were.

Sundays were their own special kind of hell. Hair washed and curled, dressed in the best fashion in proper dresses, ironed shirts and ties, and arriving on time. Sundays dinner were a requisite, so roast, potatoes, dinner rolls, jello and salads were prepared before Church to be presented in Sunday best fashion when we returned home.

Oh, and did I tell you I worked full time? Yes, and so did my husband. He worked 7:00 to 4:00 and I worked from 4:00 to about 10:00 or more each night. We barely saw one another, but we tried very hard for date night. Date night for us was an Archery league where, you guessed it, I was under a supreme amount of pressure to hit the mark!

Eventually, I failed. I figured out that I was failing BIG TIME, no matter how hard I tried. I hit a point where my kids were failing, my marriage was failing, and my health was failing - and I just wanted to die, and even THAT was a big failure!

That’s when I was introduced to God and His GRACE, and He reached down to the very bottom of my deep, dark pit and breathed into me His life.

I have never, ever looked back upon my Mormonism. It is a trap, a horrible almost inescapable pit. But for Him, I would be dead in my sin, my trying, my ambition, my standing and my ego.


16 posted on 02/15/2013 8:59:47 AM PST by colorcountry (The gospel will transform our politics, not vice versa (Romans 12:1,2))
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To: Luna

Luna,
Thanks for your response. Our journey on this earth is a very individual one.

“Salvation is individual, not collective. We’re not the borg.”

Actually, if you do not do everything you are commanded to do, including supporting the leadership, you will not get into the Temple, not get into the highest levels of mormon heaven, etc. So, according the mormonic theology, you will be judged individually based on your conforminity to the morg collectives rules. You can argue semantics, but in practical terms, you are not some kind of free agent, apart from the rules of the morg that are not found anywhere in mormonic scripture. Perhaps you are a rogue? :-)

“My chances of getting married probably aren’t that great. Do I feel as though I can’t get into the highest level of Heaven because I don’t have a husband? Nope! Why? Because I have hope in Christ. He is the Way. “

Perhaps the newly minted mormonic male gods can divvy up the females who are unattached among themselves? My understanding is that polygamy is practiced in eternity by your male gods.

“We’re His children and He wants all of us to return back to Him.”

This concept of “return back to Him” is not Biblical.

Still, I appreciated your response.


17 posted on 02/15/2013 9:18:01 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: fattigermaster

Reading the story of this so called therapist is just like reading the msm news paper, half truths if not out right lies.

Is this guy preying on Mormon women or what?

In the first place any one who is brought up in a false Church will come to be a mixed up creature and some one who joins the same is most likely a little nutty to begin with.

Now why would a life long Mormon come up with this kind of a story if he really believed in his Church?

If he don,t believe in it and what he said is true instead of only half truth why would,nt he get the hell out of it?

Now i could pretend to believe what he says if i wanted to say ( See i knew that Mormon Church was evil ) but under the circumstances how could any one with half a mind believe what he says.

I lived in the Mormon community for years and was even married to a woman who became a Mormon and believe it or not the Mormon women want to rule the roost just as much or more than women from other denominations and my wife is not the only one i got this opinion from.

The difference is of course when the Mormon leaders teach something they teach it in a more serious way that does not sound like an Alice in wonder land tale which you can take it or leave it, truth or not.

If people take anything serious it is bound to have a different affect than things given with a shrug of the shoulders attitude as in many Churches.

Needless to say a false religion taken seriously will have a negative affect.

I have a nephew who was brought up in the Mormon Church, after he grew up and started reading the Bible for him self he publicly denounced the Church and left it, i was right proud of him, but i am not proud of any traitor as this guy who treated his wife like a second hand citizen for years and now is blaming the church.

Maybe part guilt for his own actions but i would suspect more financial.

I would think that people in a true Church would not have as many problems as those in a false Church but i do not know because i have saw very few that seemed to be teaching the doctrine of Christ but the ones i saw impressed me.

As far as false Churches go it would appear that the ones who took the doctrine the most serious would be where we would find the most depressed people.

Wonder what the out come if some therapist come up with the same kind of story but just change it from a Mormon to another denomination, might be interesting but it would still be half truths if not out right lies.


18 posted on 02/15/2013 9:21:47 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: colorcountry
Wow. I can't imagine what that must have been like for you.

I have a question for you in all sincerity and without any judgement attached.

What was it that made you think or feel that you needed to do all those things in order to feel Godly, or as you wrote "show how successful, good and Godly we were"?

This topic intrigues me greatly. Probably because I've never experienced the pressure and I don't understand where it comes from. Every person's life experience is unique, so every person's story is valuable.

19 posted on 02/15/2013 9:28:07 AM PST by Luna (Evil will not triumph. God is at the helm.)
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To: Alex Murphy

9 out of 10 doctors (outside of Utah) do not recommend taking bull manure as an anti-depressant.


You got that right, if these so called therapists can get every one on some kind of depressant it will help them greatly because they the( therapists )will be needed.


20 posted on 02/15/2013 9:31:14 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Perhaps I am rogue. :) I'm also pretty strong-minded with plenty of opinions!! :)

Perhaps the newly minted mormonic male gods can divvy up the females who are unattached among themselves?

Okay. I admit it. I thought that comment was funny. I don't spend much time thinking about all those details of the afterlife. I'm just trying to get through this one and enjoy it. :)

You and I won't agree on Mormon doctrine. And that's okay. I enjoy a good religious discussion, especially one where all parties are respectful, even when they disagree. I don't usually get involved in Mormon threads because they get pretty heated. But I appreciate your responses. They're non-judgemental and very level-headed.

God bless.

21 posted on 02/15/2013 9:51:06 AM PST by Luna (Evil will not triumph. God is at the helm.)
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To: Luna

“You and I won’t agree on Mormon doctrine. And that’s okay. I enjoy a good religious discussion, especially one where all parties are respectful, even when they disagree. I don’t usually get involved in Mormon threads because they get pretty heated. But I appreciate your responses. They’re non-judgemental and very level-headed.”

Back at ya.

I’ve no reason to get heated. Ultimately, I want every mormon to know the Gospel of Grace and the Love behind it. It will never be me that changes someone’s mind. It is Him alone. All I can do is be available to tell the truth and point out falsehood at times.

Kindest FReegards to you.


22 posted on 02/15/2013 10:28:05 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: colorcountry

I washed three loads of laundry every day, and mopped my bathroom and kitchen floors every other day.


My mother raised eight kids, she did not have an automatic washer, she had the old washer with a gas motor that you had to check the oil in before you started it then crank it with a foot peddle and hope it started.

If it would not start or it was broke down she had to use a scrub board and ring the clothes out by hand, and most of the time it was broke down, she had an easy job of cleaning three bath rooms because we never had one, we had an out house.

Oh, my mother had it so easy, she never had to take excerise because she never had that much time to spare,

She got all she needed cooking, including baking every day for at times seven kids, ( some of the kids left home at an early age ) sewing patches on pants and shirts, ironing, carrying water in from the barrel or well or a quarter mile walk from the spring, cleaning dirt floors and then dampening them and repacking them.

She never had to drive us kids around because she never had no car except when dad was home but she never learned to drive any way.

Did i mention chopping the wood for the cook stove for cooking and warming the water for the bathes of the little kids too young to do it for them selves?

Milking and feeding a cow or up to twenty cows and sometimes feeding pigs,( not us kids but other pigs,) feeding and caring for chickens, and on top of that raising a big garden, working in other peoples fields right along beside us kids hoeing weeds for 15 to 25 cents an hour.

And the times we lived in town she took up washings and ironing’s at home with the same old wore out washers and the same old clothes lines which we took with us when we moved, and the same irons that you had to put on a stove to heat, plus all of the other work she would normally do.

Thank God we never had no band practice or other school socialist programs that she would have had to walk from several blocks to several miles to attend.

My mother was not a Mormon, during these years the Mormon women also worked hard but were living
much better in comparison.

Sorry you had it so rough.


23 posted on 02/15/2013 10:48:34 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: ravenwolf

I’m glad your mother did not also have to work full time.

Sorry she had it so rough - I understand. I never had a washing machine until #3 was born, and I used cloth diapers. I’ve got a wringer washer and I considered THAT a luxury. I hope your mother knew and experience the grace that God offered her, so that when she failed she knew that she was still loved.


24 posted on 02/15/2013 11:08:11 AM PST by colorcountry (The gospel will transform our politics, not vice versa (Romans 12:1,2))
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To: ravenwolf; colorcountry
Sorry you had it so rough.

What a hateful remark. So typical, too.

25 posted on 02/15/2013 11:13:16 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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To: colorcountry

cc,
Thanks for sharing your experiences in a way I could never do.

I am happy for your peace of mind in Christ now. Ain’t grace wonderful?!!

May each mormon reading this thread come to know the Gospel of Grace and the God of Love Who made it possible. May they leave the false gospel of works and turn to the true God.

ampu


26 posted on 02/15/2013 11:53:59 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Amazing isn’t it. Don’t you just feel the love?


27 posted on 02/15/2013 12:07:59 PM PST by colorcountry (The gospel will transform our politics, not vice versa (Romans 12:1,2))
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To: greyfoxx39

What a hateful remark.


You are right, i should have used different words, it got put that way because my mind was not on the lady who made the comment but on the hatefulness of the people who are doing every thing they can to make the Mormon Women feel inferior to other people, they are not inferior, if there is a difference i would say the ones i have known are superior.

In other words it was not just the Mormon women who had to work hard, every one did it not many years before.

But the self righeous hatred of another religion that most likely is just as false will do any thing they can to make these Mormon women feel inferior and mistreated and mostly it is just a big lie that liberals are good at.


28 posted on 02/15/2013 3:08:02 PM PST by ravenwolf
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To: colorcountry

I’m glad your mother did not also have to work full time.
——————————————————————————————Thanks for the reply and i did not mean to put your work down, but the reason i put it the way i did is because it makes me so dam mad that any person or religious group will do or say any thing to make the Mormon Women feel inferior, and i know for a fact they are not inferior.

If they want to bring up false religion why don,t they just read the Bible to them? but if they would actually read the Bible they may find a few things that differs from their point of view, especially about work, and they also may find some false doctrine in their own Church.

If i was going to write an article as the author did i think i would at least leave the Church first.

And i am certainly not a Mormon.

Sorry for the words i chose in my first comment to you, it takes some one pretty great to do all you did.


29 posted on 02/15/2013 3:38:59 PM PST by ravenwolf
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To: ravenwolf; colorcountry; reaganaut; svcw; zerosix; Colofornian; Elsie; Zakeet; Tennessee Nana; ...
"But the self righeous hatred of another religion that most likely is just as false"

Another "I'm not a mormon but.." weighing in with a Christian-bashing comment in defense of the sexist mormon doctrine and practice.

Those of us women who lived under the so-called "priesthood" tyrany of mormonism call FOUL on your rants.

30 posted on 02/16/2013 7:24:20 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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To: ravenwolf
doing every thing they can to make the Mormon Women feel inferior to other people

Finally, you understand some of momronism's teachings.

31 posted on 02/16/2013 7:59:46 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: fattigermaster
Mormon ladies don't drink coffee which explains a part of the Prozac sales.


32 posted on 02/16/2013 8:00:17 AM PST by Reeses
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To: Luna

In the lds culture, the woman ARE being judged. (They must appear to be perfect.) It is not a perception, it is a reality.


33 posted on 02/16/2013 8:05:05 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Luna; All
This is interesting. And sad. I'm a Mormon, have been my whole life. I have NEVER understood this kind of depression and guilt among LDS women. I know it exists among a lot of women of my faith. I've heard women say stuff like "I feel like I'm not doing enough. I could have done more." It makes me want to grab them by the shoulders and say: "Stop it! God does NOT expect you to be perfect. He knows it's impossible for ANY human to be perfect. Only one person was perfect, Jesus Christ. Do the best you can, but don't beat yourself up when you screw up. We all screw up. Accept it. Accept the grace that Jesus provides to make up for our imperfections and mistakes. That's what He's there for."

Well, #1, I won't try to pretend I know how every Mormon applies grace vs. merit to their lives...but we can take a look at Book of Mormon passages and make a few surface conclusions:

Q. According to the Book of Mormon, who initiates grace -- man or God?
A. Per the BoM, Man does

Q. Where is that found?
A. Helaman 12:24 and 2 Nephi 25:23

And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. (Hel. 12:24)

If grace is "merited" "according to...works" -- then, sorry, "grace" is no longer "free." It's been turned on its head & 100% redefined. (Just try teaching your kids to merit their birthday & Christmas "gifts" "according to their works.")

...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. (2 Nephi 25:23)

And here, grace only kicks in like some afterburner on a rocket after you've used all your own fuel to get to a certain location. Tell us, what Mormon would actually have the gall to say to God, "Lord, I've done EVERYTHING I could possibly do. Spiritually. Physically. Emotionally. Mentally. Relationally. Etc. I've 'initiated' it, Lord, for your grace" ???

So...it's no wonder both Mormon women -- as well as Mormon men -- put all of this misguided religious perfectionism as a big burden on their shoulders!

34 posted on 02/16/2013 8:59:00 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Luna; All
This is interesting. And sad. I'm a Mormon, have been my whole life. I have NEVER understood this kind of depression and guilt among LDS women. I know it exists among a lot of women of my faith. I've heard women say stuff like "I feel like I'm not doing enough. I could have done more." It makes me want to grab them by the shoulders and say: "Stop it! God does NOT expect you to be perfect. He knows it's impossible for ANY human to be perfect. Only one person was perfect, Jesus Christ. Do the best you can, but don't beat yourself up when you screw up. We all screw up. Accept it. Accept the grace that Jesus provides to make up for our imperfections and mistakes. That's what He's there for."

Secondly, Lds HEAVILY stress the word "worthy" ... as if they constantly need to find a way to become "worthy" in God's sight.

Worthiness is actually related to the word, "worship." And Jesus -- ALONE among men -- is "worth-ship" - able ... meaning He is the ONLY ONE found "worthy"...not only to be worshiped...but the ONLY ONE Heavenly Father finds worthy...At least in terms with living with Him -- all-holy -- forever!

God in His holy Word didn't say 'twas the obedience of the many that was the center point of the Gospel [that's the Mormon version & many other cults]...Here's what He said in contrast:

19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:19)

Jesus' perfect obedience is what the standard of the Law called for...NONE of us could match up...Therefore, we need His righteousness imputed -- given -- to us (1 Cor. 1:30). Jesus ALONE is worthy -- and that worthiness is based upon Him as the Lamb of God being slain (see Rev. 5:9 in my previous post).

Now...how else is this distorted by the Lds concept of worthiness and sweat labor?

Q According to Mormon writings, what makes you "worthy?"
A Your perfection (3 Nephi 12:48; Mt. 5:48)

[Whereas, in contrast, a good definition of a "Christian" is someone already perfect in the Father's eyes thru Jesus sacrificial death (Heb. 10:14) -- where His perfect righteousness is substituted for our imperfect righteousness. (1 Cor. 1:30). Heb. 10:14: ...because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.]

We are perfect due to Christ's sacrifice, says Heb. 10:14.

Just to be sure I was representing the Mormon position, I looked up this key Lds concept of "worthiness" in the 1977 "Topical Guide to the Scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" published by church-owned Deseret Publishers.

I found verses like Doctrine & Covenants 59:4: "And they shall also be crowned with blessings from above, yea, and with commandments not a few, and with revelations in their time--they that are faithful and diligent before me."

"Commandments not a few"? -- sounds like a long checklist to me.

I then looked at the 1979 "Topical Guide" in the Lds version of its KJV -- and turned to the "worthiness" entry there: It tells me right up top its related to the concept of "qualifying for" & then proceeds to verses like D&C 31:5: "Therefore, thrust in your sickle with all your soul, and your sins are forgiven you, and you shall be laden with sheaves upon your back, for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Wherefore, your family shall live."

Ah. There it is: The Mormon "strategy." Don't "trust" another's blood-death sacrifice for your salvation; no..."thrust in your sickle"

So it sounds like the Mormon god wants plenty of soul labor
-- paid labor
-- garden sweat
-- spiritual hirelings
-- earned labor
for salvation.
No free gifts here.
No grace here.
Just follow the rules, ma'am.

Indeed, the LDS are the "rules oriented" ones: The purity and perfection we seek is unattainable without this subjection of unworthy, ungodlike urges and the corresponding encouragement of their opposites. We certainly cannot expect the rules to be easier for us than for the Son of God... (Lds 13th "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 28)

Just look @ all the "rule extensions" Lds have imposed upon their followers in order to live forever with Heavenly father:
(1) You have to be obedient to all the commandments & ordinances of the Mormon god
(2) You have to tithe -- what Lds reference as the "Law of consecration"
(3) You have to obey the "Word of Wisdom" -- not drink coffee, etc.
(4) You have to get married -- sorry, no never-married single people allowed
(5) You have to have as many children as possible
(6) You have to perform temple work for the dead
(7) You have to perform endowments essential for this highest degree of salvation
(8) You have to be a member of the right church (Lds)
(9) You have to receive & perform the rites and ordinances established by that church
(10)You have to have Joseph Smith's consent to enter into your highest afterlife

That is 19th-20th-21st century legalism!

No wonder depression is so rampant!!!

35 posted on 02/16/2013 9:01:23 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: svcw

Finally, you understand some of momronism’s teachings


That could mean anything, i am not very good at guessing.


36 posted on 02/16/2013 9:03:51 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: colorcountry
Eventually, I failed. I figured out that I was failing BIG TIME, no matter how hard I tried. I hit a point where my kids were failing, my marriage was failing, and my health was failing - and I just wanted to die, and even THAT was a big failure! That’s when I was introduced to God and His GRACE, and He reached down to the very bottom of my deep, dark pit and breathed into me His life. I have never, ever looked back upon my Mormonism. It is a trap, a horrible almost inescapable pit. But for Him, I would be dead in my sin, my trying, my ambition, my standing and my ego.

(Thank you for your testimony)

37 posted on 02/16/2013 9:04:47 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

“• Know that she may not marry any additional husband, here (if still married to the first one) or hereafter.”

My next door neighbor is a divorced Mormon and she uses the LDS Dating Service. There are lots of Mormons looking for new spouses either due to death or divorce.


38 posted on 02/16/2013 9:16:40 AM PST by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: AppyPappy

***There are lots of Mormons looking for new spouses either due to death or divorce.***

Jodi Arias is on the hunt again. She was going with a aspiring Melchizedek priesthood holder but somehow he accidentally got 29 stabs, a slashed throat, and a bullet in the head.

She’s attractive, baptized and looks good in an orange jump suit.


39 posted on 02/16/2013 9:29:00 AM PST by polkajello
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To: greyfoxx39

Another “I’m not a mormon but..” weighing in with a Christian-bashing comment in defense of the sexist mormon doctrine and practice.

Those of us women who lived under the so-called “priesthood” tyrany of mormonism call FOUL on your rants.


Yeah, i escaped from the Mormon prison, huh.

Christian bashing? i was not Christian bashing, the only thing i am doing is to say that it is hypocritical for one false religion to call an other one false.


40 posted on 02/16/2013 9:30:30 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: ravenwolf
the only thing i am doing is to say that it is hypocritical for one false religion to call an other one false.

Joseph Smith didn't have a problem calling all religions false, except the one he invented of course.

41 posted on 02/16/2013 9:36:10 AM PST by Graybeard58 (_.. ._. .. _. _._ __ ___ ._. . ___ ..._ ._ ._.. _ .. _. .)
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To: ravenwolf

Or was that your point?


42 posted on 02/16/2013 9:37:06 AM PST by Graybeard58 (_.. ._. .. _. _._ __ ___ ._. . ___ ..._ ._ ._.. _ .. _. .)
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To: polkajello

I like spunky women


43 posted on 02/16/2013 10:17:03 AM PST by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: Luna

I’m a Mormon, have been my whole life. I have NEVER understood this kind of depression and guilt among LDS women. I know it exists among a lot of women of my faith.


You can see that it exists in your own faith, but not being too familiar with other faiths you can not see similar or other problems there.

At the same time if you think that this is really a problem you should figure out if the problem is just with the attitude of the average woman in todays world or if the problem is the Church.

I was going to suggest that you read and reread every word of what Jesus said and dwell on it and to even follow the path to the cross where he was slain as the lamb of God and see how much of it you can recognize in your Church.

But i see you have read about Jesus and as you say he is what this is all about to begin with.


44 posted on 02/16/2013 10:20:00 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: Graybeard58

Joseph Smith didn’t have a problem calling all religions false, except the one he invented of course.


You don,t get no argument on that.


45 posted on 02/16/2013 10:26:31 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: Graybeard58

Or was that your point?


The question is, do i believe Joesph Smith to have been a false Prophet? exactly.


46 posted on 02/16/2013 10:31:38 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: ravenwolf; Graybeard58
If Joseph Smith were living in America today, he would not feel any need to be a Mormon. Given current social mores, there is no longer any need to create a whole new religion just to provide a religious cover for sexual perversion.

If Joseph Smith were alive today, he would probably get involved in Scientology or Amway,

47 posted on 02/16/2013 10:36:04 AM PST by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: ravenwolf

No need to guess.

YOU SAID: doing every thing they can to make the Mormon Women feel inferior to other people

I SAID: Finally, you understand some of momronism’s teachings.


48 posted on 02/16/2013 10:38:28 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: AppyPappy

Good thing Joseph Smith married Emma and not Jodi.


49 posted on 02/16/2013 10:40:22 AM PST by polkajello
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To: Tau Food

Wouldn’t Amway bring him into the mormon fold?


50 posted on 02/16/2013 10:42:48 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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