Posted on 02/07/2013 12:06:49 PM PST by Alex Murphy
As the original post mentioned, we look at it from the other way around: we are all depraved and worthy of condemnation. All. It is only by virtue of a loving God that some of us can be declared righteous (by Christ's work) and rescued from that fate. It's the stark contrast between Jeremiah 17:9 and John 3:16. The hate comes from US - not from God: Romans 8:6-8.
"...fundamental moral transformations in individuals are probably not possible at best and futile at worst."
Not without a fundamental transformation enabled by God, no.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?-- Romans 9:19-24
If He waits, he is not omniscient, as He must see the results that are to come.
If He waits, he is not omnipotent, for He cannot will them to come.
The Bible speaks of a God that is omniscient and omnipotent. If He waits, He is not God.
Again, those first two statements are not logical. The conclusions cannot be drawn from the premise.
Thanks for your reply:
>>”His grace causes faith to be operational..”
conditioned upon election.
>>>”salvation by grace through faith is correct.”
Dependent upon election. Salvation is determined by, dependent upon, election. The rest follows only if...
This is different and opposed to the teaching of salvation by grace through faith.
The fourth sentence is not only untrue, it is unbiblical.
“Waiting” is a non-starter for God who is eternal, outside time.
There is not a dichotomy between salvation by election and salvation by grace and faith, as show in Eph 2:4-10. If you believe there is, please explain.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Exactly. He knows all, so He knows who he will save and who will reject him.
Aside from the “P”’, there’s not a dimes worth of difference between the ‘misperception’ and the ‘facts’ as he explains them.
I once went to a family Bible camp where Edwin Palmer spoke on “The Five Points of Calvinism”.
His entire presentation on Perseverance of the Saints was, “Once saved, always saved; no exception.”
Exactly. He knows all, so He knows who he will save and who will reject him.
This would indicate election is dependent upon not rejecting Him...
I believe this would not conform with Calvinist teaching, re: Election>>Irresistible Grace>>>Salvation.
Let me try something else: are you denying that there is a group referred to in scriptures as the "elect" (which, in our context, represents those having salvation)?
Because I'm not sure it matter how you slice it: yes, we believe that grace&faith result in salvation. Yes, we also believe that God knows the elect before the foundations of the world were laid (scriptures already cited on these).
Does this mean that election *causes* salvation? No... other events will take place later for that. It's kinda like (bad example coming) when we elect a politician to office. It's now enabled that he will take office, but he's still gotta go to the courthouse and be sworn in to accept his new position.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Is responding to God's grace a work?
No. I worded my post explicitly to show WHO is responsible for salvation and WHO is responsible for their own damnation.
A “work” only in the sense that is seen in John 6:
John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Even Calvin believed in common grace.
It's now enabled that he will take office, but he's still gotta go to the courthouse and be sworn in to accept his new position.
If he doesn't, or there is any possibility that he can't or won't, then Irresistible Grace and Perseverance of the Saints is false.
The problem remains and is compounded with the free will choice and robot objections.
Thanks.
I think it is not a work. Not in the sense we are discussing and not in the sense St. Paul uses work - as in works of the law.
No - it's specifically saying exactly the opposite: that we cannot earn salvation by any means... so that we can't brag about it (2:9b).
I don't see where grace is conditioned upon election; election IS grace.
It's only by grace that one is elected.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.