Posted on 02/07/2013 12:06:49 PM PST by Alex Murphy
That accusation can be leveled at the opponents of Calvinism just as easily and IMO with more validity.
(Forgive me if this was discussed in the thread - I've not read the entire thread yet and don't have time to do it right now - but I thought your comment warranted a response.)
I agree. And his comment is .....so most tend to ignore the passages they can’t just explain away.
I agree. Like these.....?
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, 'Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons'" Acts 10:34
"For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not RECEIVE? And if you did RECEIVE it, why do you boast as though you did not? 1 Corinthians 4:7
Saying they are 'the elect' - different that anyone else and boasting. Now that is foreknowledge of the Calvinists!
Salvation is a GIFT of God. We thankfully RECEIVE gifts. Seems Calvinists' might have an entitlement mindset.
Well no matter how you view it, it is conditional. It is conditional on God putting it there. Although there is no eartly condition upon which grace is bestowed, it is still necessary that God grant that grace as a condition to Salvation. I believe the proper term rather than "unconditional" would be "unmerited". God is not arbitrary. He has His reasons. We just don't know what they are.
Exactly. Well put.
God's grace is available to all. Christ died for the world.
Grace -- at some point determined only by God Himself -- has its limits...and cannot ALWAYS 100% FOREVER to be assumed...and those limits occur at some point where Jesus Christ is being PUBLICLY disgraced:
Here's "Scripture" on that:
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Hebrews 6:4-6)
We know God -- on His side -- won't let loose any believer...for God is faithful...but at some point people "who have shared in the Holy Spirit" CAN commit spiritual suicide. Grace cannot forever be presumed. And, as we know, grace IS a "condition" for salvation.
The Old Covenant was conditional; the New Covenant is not.
My post #188. The Old Covenant was conditional (agreement between parties). The New Covenant is not.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
What thread was that? And who was it to and what time?
It’s the 11pm hour now.
Discuss the message, not the messenger. And do not carry over disputes from previous threads.
I Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:
quite a few think the simple sentence from Christ Himself, "This is my body." to be foolishness. Those who think it's foolishness ignore little details like those who do not eat His flesh and drink His blood having no life in them. Admitting Jesus Christ stated a fact would be very inconvenient for a great many people, so, they reinterpret what He said to mean, "This is a symbol of my body".
Priests were inconvenient to Luther, but even Luther wouldn't dare deny the direct statement of fact by Jesus Christ Himself, "This is my body". Now, of course, whatever is inconvenient can be quickly brushed aside by simply interpreting Scripture to suit your own preconceptions and preferences. Queers marry one another in some churches, queers are the pastor in some churches, infanticide by contraceptive is fine with most churches, and whatever is inconvenient is rejected based on one reinterpretation of Scripture or another almost as soon as it becomes inconvenient.
Inconvenience or a direct statement of fact from Jesus Christ Himself ?
If I err, I prefer to err on the side of Christ stating a fact and if I'm wrong I'm positive I will be in His presence to find that out. Erring on the side of inconvenience, though, may well put someone among those who hear, "I never knew you", from the same Jesus Christ who said, "This is my body.".
I have come to understand Romans 4 is mistranslated. I fixed it here.
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham was of the elect, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but, because he is elect, trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their election is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b]
9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s election was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Only God knows. Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by election while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all the elect but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the election that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by election. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, election means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by election, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who do not have the law.
...
There seems to me to be lots of passages in the Bible similar to this one that seem pointless if all the tenets of Calvinism are accepted as listed at the top of the post. Far more than if you accept man has a choice to make as he responds to the offer of the Gospel. In either case, there are passages that are difficult to reconcile with either position. I’m sort of going with the idea if 10 buckets go one way, and 2 buckets go the other, maybe the 10 bucket side is the best starting point.
Speaking of inconvenience, you seemed to be taking the discussion in a different direction, and you have not addressed my response to 2 Peter 3:9, which you brought up previously.
I would prefer that we keep our current discussion to the original topic. If there is a recent forum topic discussing the bread and the wine as being the literal body and blood of Christ, let me know where it is and I will respond there.
Grace and Peace.
So, what is on the topic of a someone saying a direct quote of Jesus Christ Himself needs carefully turned into something other than a simple statement of fact by those who don't like what He said?
John 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
John 15:16 “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”
John 17:1-3 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
John 17:9-10 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them."
If so, Jesus is plainly saying that only those chosen by the Father to give to the Son are saved, and that Jesus asks only on behalf of the chosen, and not on behalf of the world.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.