You wrote:
“I asked for examples of executions of heretics on the charge of heresy, rather than on the basis of a capital offense other than heresy, prior to Islamic influence, and you cited the 11th century.”
Because that’s what we’re talking about.
“Now you assert, without providing one, that “there were notable examples of heretics being put to death in Late Antiquity - and medieval Christians were not unaware of those cases”. Rather than giving me bluster and irrelevant examples from the 11th century, why did you not cite an actual “notable example” from Late Antiquity to begin with?”
Seriously, you honestly don’t know about any of this do you? You’ve never heard of Priscillian, for instance?
“How about actually rising to the challenge and answering the question I originally posed:”
How about actually providing proof for your own claims? Name the Islamic source which Christians cited as an authority to influence their own persecution of heretics. Can you? No, because there never were any.
“Can you find any well-attested instances of Christian heretics being executed solely on a charge of heresy, without another capital charge as the basis for the execution, prior to the rise of Islam, and with the approval of the Church?”
Magic is a form of heretical depravity and that was the official charge for which Priscillian was executed, for instance. The point is, strictly speaking, no one was ever executed SOLELY for heresy because that could and would not be known. Heretical ACTS were an entirely different matter.
“You’ve asserted they exist. Cite one.”
Already did. See above.
“In fact, you’ve asserted multiple such examples exist. Cite two.”
I’ll provide another one when you cite a single Muslim source quoted by a pope, council, leading canonist or theologian as a rationale for Christians executing heretics in the 12th and 13th centuries. If you can’t do that, then your poppycock theory will be shown to be exactly that.
“But executions of heretics for plots to assassinate the Emperor or a king or for murder or for anything else which was a capital offense under the prevailing laws of the time, unless it was a law prescribing a death penalty for heresy, don’t count, only execution for heresy per se, which is what donmeaker and I and Scott suggest was copied from the Muslims.”
And you’re all still wrong. Even if Christians did not execute men for solely heresy in Late Antiquity, it still in no way implies that any such notion was borrowed from Muslims. Such an idea is silly on the face of it and there are exactly zero sources to back it up.
You’re making several notable errors:
1) You’re assuming there was an Islamic influence on this subject based upon exactly nothing.
2) You are completely negating the massive European development of its own resources and sources which was COMPLETELY unconnected to anything remotely Islamic (e.g. the rediscovery of Roman Law in the 12th century; the desire of French monarchs to stymie outbreaks of popular violence and assert central control, etc.).
3) You are de facto denying the actual nature and understanding of medieval heresy on the part of medieval Christians. Those executed, for instance, were always viewed as dangers to society even if the charge was only heresy.
4) You are denying what medieval heretics themselves claimed (e.g. Hound of Heaven, Friulian witches, etc.).
5) You present not a single source - NOT ONE - which actually substantiates a single thing you claim. ZERO.
Now, unless you can present ONE MUSLIM SOURCE which was quoted by a pope, council, leading canonist or theologian as a foundational rationale for Christians executing heretics in the 12th and 13th centuries then this is a pointless exercise. Time to post some proof for what you claim. Got any? Any at all? I’m betting this will be a classic K-State choke.
What precisely is your problem? Can you not carry on a civil written discussion of social, political and ecclesiastical history without engaging in invective and abuse?
Indeed we are discussing changes in the behavior of Western Christians in the 11th and 12th centuries, which you and old-school Latin ecclesiastical historians attribute to the unprecedented rise of “secret heresies”, but which Scott and I attribute to Islamic influence. My question, however, had been about purely Christian precedents for the execution of heretics prior to the rise of Islam, and your pointing to events in the 11th and 12th centuries was quite unresponsive.
Thank you for pointing out Priscillian, now finally you answered the question (and also the subsequently given challenge of giving multiple instances since reviewing that sorry bit of history, I see that the Empire executed six of Priscillian’s followers). Yes, my knowledge of ecclesiastical history is much deeper and broader in the history of the Eastern Patriarchates than in the history of the Patriarchate of Rome.
Even in this instance the capital charge was the practice of magic, which you want to conflate with heresy. So you are engaging in a bit of definition-stretching here to support your claim. But perhaps this is just one of those East-West differences: you say magic constitute heresy, we tend to say it’s humbug. Though regarding it as humbug is not to say that someone deluded into believing they can practice magic is not imperiling his or her soul, only that he or she is imperiled by delusion.
Now, you demand documentary evidence of Christians explicitly citing Muslim sources for “authority”, knowing perfectly well that no Christian would cite a Muslim source for authority. This is an absurd demand. (Oh, but because it’s absurd, you get to sneer at me, my employer and colleagues, and claim that my not being able to cite such a document will be a ‘typical K-State choke.’ How marvelous for you! It must make you feel like such a big man!) (And with brief counter-sneer, I will attempt to return to civility.)
Do any historians, social, political or ecclesiastical doubt that the aniconism of Islam was an influence upon iconoclasm? None certainly that I have read — and I have read extensively on the history of both the Church and the Empire in the relevant period. But can you point to any iconoclast writings citing Islamic sources of authority for the destruction of icons? To have done so would have laid bare the heretical nature of iconoclasm, so, of course, non-Christian sources were not cited for authority.
Did Emperor Frederick II leave documentary evidence citing Islamic authority for his adoption of the Muslim custom of keeping a harem? Did the Crusaders leave documentary evidence citing Muslim authority for adopting practice previously unknown among Christians of waging religious wars? How about those Crusaders who appealed (blessedly in vain) to have death in battle in a Crusade regarded as Christian martyrdom — did they leave documents citing Islamic authority for their view? But, do you really think that Frederick’s polygamy or the notion of Christian holy war or the desire of some Crusaders to establish a Christian analogue of the Muslim conception of martyrdom were not influenced by Islam simply because no documents citing an Islamic source of authority exist?
For that matter do you really think that my not citing vladimir998 as authority for writing bits of invective in posts to fellow FReepers means that your sneering posts did not influence my engaging in the bit of sneering above?
We have enough instances in our own time of social and cultural influences spreading without documentary chains of “authority” — for example, various European parliaments create “gay marriage”, leftish politicians and celebrities throughout the Anglosphere embrace the idea, but American courts cite American jurisprudence to conjure a right to “gay marriage” out of thin air. Do you really want to argue that since the American courts cited the 14th Amendment, or some provision of their state constitution, that the European legislation and “elite” opinion was not merely an influence on, but actually the real basis for, the courts’ actions? Latin Church sets up inquisitions — investigative tribunals unprecedented in Christian history, but entirely analogous to Muslim tribunals in neighboring Almohad Spain — and because they don’t cite Islamic “authority”, you want to argue that the bad example set by the Muslims in Spain was not an influence?
I am also underwhelmed by your assertion that “heresy could not and would not be known” so that only “heretical acts” could be the basis for a capital charge of heresy. The Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils were able to know that some persons (e.g. Arius) were heretics with sufficient certainty to promulgate solemn anathemas against not only their teachings, but their persons, when they refused to recant and accept the council’s statement of the Faith. I, evidently unlike you, trust that the Church can discern heresy in her children or erstwhile children (erstwhile since *unrepentant* heretics separate themselves from the Church), not just “heretical acts”.
In truth the notion of “heretical acts” sounds odd to my Orthodox ears — I have never seen the phrase used by Orthodox writers other than Russians from after the “Latin captivity” of Russian theological education in the 19th century, and that rarely, and only then in connection with actions to establish dioceses on the basis of the heresy of ethnophyletism.