Religion Forum threads labeled “Ecumenical”
Ecumenical threads are closed to antagonism.
To antagonize is to incur or to provoke hostility in others.
Unlike the “caucus” threads, the article and reply posts of an “ecumenical” thread may discuss more than one belief, but antagonism is not tolerable.
More leeway is granted to what is acceptable in the text of the article than to the reply posts. For example, the term “gross error” in an article will not prevent an ecumenical discussion, but a poster should not use that term in his reply because it is antagonistic. As another example, the article might be a passage from the Bible which would be antagonistic to Jews. The passage should be considered historical information and a legitimate subject for an ecumenical discussion. The reply posts however must not be antagonistic.
Contrasting of beliefs or even criticisms can be made without provoking hostilities. But when in doubt, only post what you are “for” and not what you are “against.” Or ask questions.
Ecumenical threads will be moderated on a “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” basis. When hostility has broken out on an “ecumenical” thread, I’ll be looking for the source.
Therefore “anti” posters must not try to finesse the guidelines by asking loaded questions, using inflammatory taglines, gratuitous quote mining or trying to slip in an “anti” or “ex” article under the color of the “ecumenical” tag.
Most Christian churches agree on this, but just wait till the Adventists, Armstrongists, JWs and Church of God 7th day show up!
This could get interesting. Popcorn time.
The link, sorry: https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=189357
Here we go again with the seeming obligatory incessant promotions of RC doctrine on FR. Perhaps it merits an indulgence. In any case, it results in the refutation of such.
Your proof text is that of offering prayers, which is liked to incense (Ps. 14:12; cf. Lk. 1:10) as are odors, (Rv. 5:8) and which type of offering was an OT practice, but it does not provide support for praying to the departed, for which you have zero exampleas of amongst the multitudes of prayers in Scripture, or instructions on it ("I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," "our Father who are in Heaven," etc., not "our mother").
Nor is there is no need for an intercessor btwn God in Heaven and men on earth, as Christ is wholly sufficient, and believers have direct access to God in the holy of holy by the blood of Jesus, (Heb. 10:19) with no saintly secretaries involved.
Nor did communication take place btwn beings in Heaven and beings on earth without one being in either place, except for God.
More fully,
Prayer to departed saints (PTDS)
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Why is praying the saints in Heaven wrong? The Bible tells us to pray for each other. The issues are what prayer is, and its object, and the spiritual relation that exists between God and man in the spiritual realm, and the separation of realms which God manifests as between the two. The foundational issue regarding PTDS is that of Scriptural warrant and conflation. The Bible teaches abundantly on prayer, and in order to warrant PTDS (praying to departed saints in heaven) one must find an approved example or teaching of it, and some insufficiency in Christ or as regards immediate directly access to Him. Yet the Bible provides just the opposite and clearly so, as in all the multitudes of prayers in the Bible, the Holy Spirit provides zero examples of any believers praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, and the only persons who do make offerings and supplication to the departed are pagans. (Jer. 7:17-19). In addition, nowhere in any instructions on prayer is any believer directed to pray to anyone but the Lord (not “our mother who art in Heaven”). Nor is any other intercessor in Heaven mentioned, and rather than any insufficiency in Christ, the Holy Spirit explicitly exalts His unique position and attributes, in which He alone is uniquely able to help us because He alone was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin, and alone is exalted as Lord and High priest, and is set forth as the One believers have immediate access to in seeking grace. (Heb. 2:17-18; 4:13-16 Moreover, the holy of holies in which believers have boldness to enter through the blood of Jesus Christ, (Heb. 10:19) which the Old Testament type exampled, was never a place in which one was met with secretaries, but the high priest communed directly with God, and as Christ is our high priest, through Him believers have direct access by one Spirit unto the Father. (Heb. 10:19-22; Eph. 2:18) In light of this the advocate of PTDS has no real support or warrant from Scripture, and is left seeking to extrapolate this out of analogy between earthly communications, supposing a complete correspondence to that between earth and heaven, and or a "God can do anything" hermeneutic, but which is a strained and problematic exegesis which cannot overcome the weight of evidence against it, and such attempts are typical of cults when faced with the same. But Jesus Himself prayed to Lazarus (Jn. 11) when he was dead, and Abraham and the rich man in conversed after death. (Lk. 16:19-31) While these stories are used to justify speaking to saintly “secretaries” in Heaven making intercession to God, yet Abraham was not in Heaven yet, and the communication in this account is described as being oral, like as persons converse on earth, while the Lord simply simply spoke to Lazarus in the grave. Moreover, to be able to hear and respond to potentially billions of prayers simultaneously is an attribute of Deity which the departed are never shown to have been given. It is also of note that linguistically, the word which is uniquely used for prayer in the NT (87 times, and mostly in Luke), “proseuchomai” (Gk.) is not used not in for the communication between Christ and Lazarus or Abraham and the rich man, or for any communication between persons. The more general word used in Lk. 16:27, erōtaō, can be used for prayer, but is only used by John for prayer to the Father in Heaven, (Jn. 14:16; 16,26; 17:9,15,20) that being personal intercession by Christ in Heaven, and to the resurrected Lord Jesus in Heaven possibly twice, (Jn. 16:23; 1Jn. 5:16) for a total of 7 times out of 58. While erōtaō is not excluded from denoting prayer, it is not as as definitive as proseuchomai, being also used for things like “desired, etc.) and its use in Lk. 16:27 does not define that as properly being the spiritual practice of prayer from earth to God in Heaven. For related issues, such a third postmortem location, you may find to this exchange helpful between a Roman Catholic trying to argue for a Scriptural basis for purgatory and my responses. |
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To substantiate that PTDS is Scriptural, one needs to, from the Bible (and basically in order of importance) |
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Provide just one example, among the multitude of prayers in the Bible, where anyone besides heathen (Jer. 44:19) prayed to or addressed anyone else in heaven but the Lord.* |
Example, descriptions, instructions. See Bible prayers here Gen. 15:2; 17:18; 18:23; 18:23-32; 24:12-14; 32:9-12; Ex. 25:22; 32:11-13; 33:12-19; Num. 6:23-26; 10:35-36; 11:11-16; 12:13-14; 14:13-19; 27:15-18; Dt. 3:23-25; 9:25; 9:26-29; 21:7-9; 26:5-10; Josh. 7:7-9; Jdg 6:13; 6:15; 6:15-17; 6:36-37; 6:39; 13:8; 16:8; 1Ki. 3:5-61; 17:20-21; 18:25-26; 18:27-37; 19:4; 2Chr. 6:40; 14:11; 20:6-12; 30:18-19; Neh. 1:4,5; 1:4-11; 4:4-5; 9:5-38; Ps. 4:1; 5:3; 6:9; 17:1; 35:13; 39:12; 42:8; 54:2; 55:1; 61:1; 64:1; 65:2; 66:19,20; 69:13; 72:15; 80:4; 84:8; 86:1,6; 86:6; 88:2,13; 90:1; 102:1,17; 109:4,7; 141:2,5; 142:1; 143:1; Prov. 15:8,29; 28:8;
Mat. 6:9-13; 11:25-27; 17:21; 21:22; 26:39; Lk. 1:9,13; 6:12; 18:10-13; 19:46; 23:30; 23:34; 23:46; Jn.11:41-42; 17:1-22; 17:1-26; Acts 1:14,24-25; 3:1; 6:4; 9:6; 10:2,31; 12:5; 16:13,16; Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16; 7:25; 10:19-22; 13:20-21; Rev. 6:16-16; 22:2022:20 |
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Provide one place where exhortations, commands or instruction or descriptions on prayer directed believers to pray to departed saints or angels. ("i.e. "After this manner pray, Our mother, who art in heaven...").. |
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Show where any insufficiency exists in Christ regarding immediacy, ability, or compassion that would require or advantage another intercessor in heaven between Christ and man, besides the Holy Spirit. (Ex. 25:22; Eph. 2:18; Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16; 7:25; 10:19-22; etc.) |
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Show where believers in Christ do not have direct access to God in heaven, that having “boldness to enter into the holiest” (Heb. 10:19) means one may choose to meet a type of secretary rather than in Christ directly having access by one Spirit unto the Father.** (Eph. 2:18) |
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Show where departed souls in heaven are taking prayer requests addressed to them. |
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Show where the departed are given the Divine attribute of omniscience, so they can hear and process an infinite amount of prayer. (Ps. 65:2; 139:4; Prov. 15:3) |
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Provide where any communication between believers on earth and heavenly beings besides God took place apart from a personal visitation, either by men being caught up to heaven or by angels coming to earth. (Jdg. 13; Mk. 9:2-9; Rev. 4:1ff;) |
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Show where anyone else is called "Queen of heaven" other than Jer 44:17 (“But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven”), who was a heavenly object of devotion and prayer. |
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If believers can pray to the departed saints for help in their Christian life, then show why they cannot call upon saints for salvation, and where the Bible supports that. |
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Show where another basic necessary practice has zero positive examples and is contrary to any actual need.*** |
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"O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come." (Psalms 65:2) "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. {15} For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. {16} Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:14-16) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, {20} By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; {21} And having an high priest over the house of God; {22} Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." (Hebrews 10:19-22) "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. " (Galatians 4:6) |
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*That is, the Father and the Son. It is clear that souls did call upon Jesus in prayer, (Acts 7:59; 1Cor. 1:2; 2Cor. 12:8; Rm. 10:13) as only He is the mediator between God and man, (1Tim. 2:5) that being uniquely His honor and ability, and is Lord of all, (Acts 10:36) and to pray to the Lord Jesus is to pray to the Father, as through Christ (by His blood) we have access by His Spirit to the Father. (Eph. 2:18) Praying to the Holy Spirit is not recorded, as it is He who effects prayer, and cries to the Father, (Gal. 4:6) not a “mother.” The Spirit can impress upon others to pray, but only Divinity is the direct object of spiritual intercession. **Some try to use Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4 to support praying to the departed, but this does not signify angelic intercession on behalf of saints awaiting to be hear by God, but in the first instance refers to prayers as a pleasing sacrifice, which Christ Himself was, “as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.” (Eph. 5:2) In the second, incense is offered with their prayers as a memorial sense, and which testifies to the wickedness of the earth, and which prayers affirms its judgment which the text goes on to describe. (cf. Rev. 6:10) ***It is argued from silence that PTDS is not forbidden, yet necromancy is. And while (using another argument from silence) there is no express command against consensual cannibalism (whoever dies first we will have for dinner), its basic prohibition is justly derived from Gn. 9:3,5,6 which establishes the source of man's food. Although is it true that in keeping with the foundational law of love, in dire circumstance of necessity it might be allowed (and with the Andes survivors), yet there is no need to pray to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, as the Scriptures only exhort and example prayers to the Lord alone as regards a heavenly object, and clearly establish Christ as being the all-sufficient intercessor, both in terms of ability and accessibility. |
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So who is this Gamera and what credentials?
So why does God bother with the Judgment, spoken of in Revelation, if the dead are already enjoying their reward?
What are they doing? Are they just standing around, are they working, are they dancing and singing?
Really, what are they doing?
This is not a sarcastic question but one that has troubled me whenever I read of the AfterLife.........
When Was the Last Time You Meditated on Heaven? That Long?! Try This.
The Sinner's Guide - Ch 9. The Ninth Motive for Practicing Virtue: The Thought of Heaven
Pope speaks with priests from his diocese about Heaven and Hell
STUNG BY MOST VENOMOUS OF CREATURES, MAN SAYS HE ENCOUNTERED 'LIGHT' OF LORD'
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 9: Heaven
Heaven and hell seem to be forgotten
Imagine there's a heaven
Limbo and the Hope of Salvation
Catholic Caucus: The Resurrection of the Dead
Resurrection Means a Glorious Existence
We cannot fathom, yet I think will truly marvel at how God brings our afterlife to be.
Our Lord also talked to and calm the sea, but as a note of caution, please do not get out of a boat on rough waters thinking one is going to do the same. It is a very dangerous idea to pretend one has the same latitude as our Lord Jesus. Just because Christ talked to Moses and Elijah doesn't mean we can. You will note during the transfiguration Peter, James and John talk ONLY to Christ-and they were very nervous when they did. They never talked to Moses or Elijah.
The only place in scripture where someone ACTUALLY did talk to someone from the other side (with the exception of Christ) was Saul when he talked to Samuel. (1 Sam 28) This was not included in your analysis. Unfortunately, it did not go well for Saul. One may recall that Saul's judgment for doing such a thing was death. Of course, up to this point God wasn't too happy with him anyway. Saul's chief reason was because he thought that Samual would intercede for him. He was wrong.
As far as thinking God will change His mind based upon us praying to Mary, or Pope Paul, or Fred the plumber, then I would suggest a study of other text:
The reason is that mankind doesn't know what is the will of the Father. Only Christ understands that:
Rom_8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
The reason, like Saul, that one seeks other avenues of prayer is simply because they do NOT want the will of God in their lives. When Christ taught us to pray, He told us to pray to the Father. And He prays to the Father. Now what could be a better role model?
I would recommend that before one starts down the very dangerous path of talking to dead people, that the full text of scripture is investigate. It doesn't do any good talking to the dead and it has severe consequences. Talking to Jesus should be good enough. No matter how good of a plumber Fred was.