'Another Jesus': Does it matter if Jesus is distorted @ hands of Mormon leaders? [Finale: Part IV]

Colofornian (Vanity) | Nov. 13, 2012 | Colofornian

[Colofornian]

To summarize the chart below briefly:

It provides greater detail in documentation than what was elaborated in Part III.
The traditional Christ within Christianity is...
...uniquely THE ONLY begotten Son from eternity past, not one of millions of God's pre-existent "sons";
He is uniquely Savior, not one of millions of saviors per Mormondom;
He is uniquely Creator and divine and self-existent from eternity past, not one of MILLIONS of men who are somehow likewise "self-existent" from eternity past;
His blood is uniquely powerful beyond men's commandment-keeping -- lest the promise Jesus made to the thief on the cross become a false prophecy;
His blood is potent enough to cover ALL sins, unlike the Mormon Jesus who leaves men to "make up" for anemic blood via their own "blood atonement."
He absorbed God's wrath vs. the Book of Mormon violent Jesus who took out His wrath upon thousands of residents in alleged 16 Book of Mormon cities! The violent Mormon Jesus sunk, entombed, and otherwise destroyed perhaps up to 90,000 upon His death on the Mormon cross! The Bible knows no such horrific crucifixion aftermath fairy tales...

CHART III

(Greater Detailed Documentation)

Questions Distinguishing 'Mormon' jesus from Jesus of Bible	Mormon 'Jesus'	Jesus of Bible
1. Was Jesus self-existent from all eternity past?	NO: Lds say ALL "intelligences" -- including Jesus -- existed (D&C 93:29) before becoming a "spirit" child born to a divine goddess on a planet near Kolob; yet Joseph Smith could not even keep his story straight here, giving a "revelation" in 1831 that "from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ" (D&C 39:1) + Alma 13:9 talks about the "only begotten without beginning of days" I openly dare LDS to forthrightly exegete Doctrine & Covenants 39:1, which says: Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ.... What does "from all eternity to all eternity" mean? "The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic...Intelligence is eternal & exists upon a self-existent principle...The first principles of man are self-existent with God." Smith, p. 210 [TofPresidents of the Church]	YES: Bible: Before Abraham was, "I AM" (John 8:58) ["I AM" is a divine Name first introduced in Exodus 3:14 and means, "The Self-Existing One"...THE Jesus is self-existent and didn't need a "mom god" on a planet near Kolob to "progress" in His life. Mormons flat-out deny the teaching found in John 1:1, 18 and Micah 5:2, because they claim Jesus was part of a past creation process – (obviously if Jesus’ Mormon “father” was once a man, then Jesus was at some point “less” in stature at that “time”) * "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...the Word became flesh and dwelt among us [Jesus]" (Jn. 1:1,18). * ”But thou, Bethlehem Ephrata, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2)
2. Is the title 'firstborn' as applied to Christ linked to being the "elder brother" of you and me as pre-earth spirits, or to Christ as pre-eminent heir and creator of all things?	The Firstborn "spirit" of many born spirits on a planet near Kolob; the 'Mormon Jesus' at his "spirit birth" was only "more special" at his "spirit birth" than you or me only because He was the "firstborn"	In Hebrew culture, the firstborn = "heir"...Jesus was not the "first" to be born...though Paul also adds in Col. 1:18 Jesus was the "firstborn of the dead" -- the first to rise from the dead. Colossians 1:15-16 explains this Jesus as "heir" -- "firstborn" -- as this Greek word meant pre-eminent -- or has first right over all creation...Psalm 80:27 demonstrates this idea of priority of position as Col. 1:16 says Jesus is creator of all, all things were created for Jesus (cf. Hebrews 3:4)
3. Can the 'Creator' be One who was 'created' (as a 'creature')?	YES "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269 implying that "Christendom" postulates a "mythical Christ" because we say Jesus is "uncreated" -- and part of a "triple unity" with the Father and Holy Spirit).	NO: 16 For by him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL things were created by him, and for him: (Col. 1:16)
4. Was Jesus as Son of God perfect from eternity past?	NO: "Even Christ himself was NOT perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness." (Lds 6th "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68; cf. Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, p. 153) * "...we have a correct idea of the character of the Son from the writings of the apostles, so far as they learned it. But while he was tabernacling in the flesh, he was more or less contaminated with fallen nature." (Brigham Young, JoD vol. 6, p. 95)	YES: "He made Him WHO KNEW NO SIN to be sin" (2 Cor. 5:21); Christ "did no sin" (1 Pet. 2:22)
5. Was Jesus always divine from eternity past?	NO: * "Jesus BECAME a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." (p. 51 Milton Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages); * "Christ ATTAINED Godhood while yet in pre-existence..." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323)	YES: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, John 17:5); ...unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever (Heb. 1:8)
6. Was Jesus born "at" Bethlehem?	NO: "...he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem..." (Alma 7:10, Book of Mormon)	YES: Actual Jesus born IN Bethlehem (Matt. 2:1) not "at Jerusalem" Was Jesus born "at Jerusalem"?
7. Was one of the purposes that Christ came to earth was so that He, Himself could become a "saved being?"	YES: The 'Mormon' Jesus: "Christ is a saved being” (Lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a SAVED BEING...” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) Please also see... * McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation”) and * McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72]	NO: I'm sorry, but the real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).
8. Is Jesus but one 'savior'-'redeemer' among many?	YES: The "Jesus" of Brigham Young is one redeemer-savior among who knows how many? "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?... Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870); cf. how Mormons name themselves as "saviors" -- numerous citations: Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others?	NO: "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14); "They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is THE Savior of the world.” (John 4:42)
9. Were our sins 'atoned' for in the Garden of Gethesemane?	YES: * "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood more so than on the cross." (BYU Professor Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! ABible! p. 282) * "It was there [Gethsemane] that the Savior paid the price for all the sorrows, sins and transgressions of every human being who ever lives or ever will live." (Seventy -- Second Quorum -- Wolfgang H. Paul, "Gratitude for the Atonement," Ensign, June 2007, p. 15)	NO: This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaims in Col. 1:20: "And, having made peace through the blood of the cross..."
10. Was Jesus quite violent at the point of His death?	YES: Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith talked about "...a period of darkness at the death of Christ... "greater period of darkness and terrible punishment came upon the people in the Western Hemisphere because of their extreme wickedness..." (Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 3, p. 45, Deseret Book Co., 1960) Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to bring down destruction (3 Nephi 9:12) and ensure that people would "howl" in that destruction (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to ensure people would be in "continual...mourning" (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5); the Book of Mormon jesus came to yield complete darkness for three days (3 Nephi 8:23) NOTE: Please read 3 Nephi 8:8-->3 Nephi 9:12 for entire picture of overwhelming destruction caused by the Mormon 'Jesus': Cities were supposedly all either sunk by the Mormon jesus, or horrifically burned to death, plus for added emphasis, ”many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land...” (3 Nephi 9:12)...All told, upon the Mormon jesus' death, he supposedly unleashes punishment. He levels 16 cities, killing 70,000-->90,000 people! [Note: Nothing of the kind is stated in the Bible!] Yes, there was judgment on the cross! Yes, it was terrible! But the real Jesus absorbed all of that judgment and terror -- our very sins -- there on the cross! The sad result is that too many LDS & RLDS alike ONLY see the Book of Mormon Easter judgment upon people! The week that followed the Book of Mormon jesus’ resurrection, was a terrible 4 days or so! No wonder a tremendous aversion to the cross exists among Mormons due to Joseph Smith's version of post crucifixion events!	NO: The Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10), to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10), and to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5)
11. Did Jesus really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature?	NO: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church: From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church... Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN) The Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasizes the Mormon doctrine of men being subject to punishment for their own sins; this Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."] The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency."	YES, BOTH: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Other Biblical verses rejected: 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:24; Heb. 1:3
12. Is Christ's powerful atoning blood diluded to 'anemic' levels?	YES: Although the Book of Mormon makes some solid statements about Christ's powerful atoning blood (see, for example Mosiah 3:18), Mormon leaders wind up accusing Jesus of having rather anemic blood; yes, Lds "scriptures" highlight His blood as one which cleanses from unrighteousness (Alma 7:14, Book of Mormon; D&C 76:41, Doctrines & Covenants; Moses 6:59, Pearl of Great Price) -- unfortunately such ultimate cleansing is rooted solely on ability to keep commandments: "That by keeping the commandments, they MIGHT be washed and cleansed from all their sins." (D&C 76:52). Other related statements to diluting cleansing power of Christ's blood: * "Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church." (Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1 , p. 135-136) * "Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93). So much for the power of Christ's blood to cover sins per Mormonism! * "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one's salvation. Many go so far, for instance, as to pretend, at least, to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. His blood, without other act than mere belief, they say, makes us clean." (Lds Tract titled, "What the Mormons Think of Christ, p. 31) * "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants" (Brigham Young, March 16, 1856, Journal of Discourses, 3:247)	NO: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7); "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood" (Rev. 1:5); "... with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."(Rev. 5:9); "they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14); "And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood." (Heb. 13:12); "Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus..." (Heb. 10:19); "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" (Eph. 1:7); Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:9)
13. Is Jesus as unique as the Bible makes Him out to be?	NO: Due to unique Lds doctrine that (a) we were all eternal; (b) we were all spirit babies just like Jesus; (c) their teaching that Jesus was a "saved being" -- in need of "salvation"; (d) all Mormons become "saviors" via baptizing dead people; (e) all temple Mormons become gods. (f) and SOME Lds leaders' teachings that Jesus is not deserving of worship. The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!)	YES: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of THE ONLY begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) Jesus is either "the ONLY begotten Son" from eternity -- not one of MANY begotten spirit sons in some pre-existence -- or He is not unique; and if Lds say "begotten" references such new "condition" Jesus acquired upon conception in Mary's womb, how is it that Jesus suddenly became a Son and the Father suddenly became a Father -- unless it's true that Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie & Lds "prophet" Brigham Young taught that the paternity was a literal one -- that the Father came down and had sex with Mary!!!
14. Can Jesus be prayed to directly?	NO: Yet... “And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and God…when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him…And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him…And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.” (3 Nephi 19:18, 24-26, Book of Mormon)	YES Stephen, Acts prayed directly to Jesus! While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:59)

[Lazamataz]

Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle. BAM
Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle. BAM
Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle. BAM

[Colofornian]

She used to be a Mormon, thusly her anger

Better dust off that Zatamazalist urim & thummim you may use to crystal ball your environment...(Or is it a Zatamazalist Magic 8-ball?)

Tho, I'm descended from Mormons, 'twas never Mormon...thusly no "anger" issues that you falsely gossip about.

So whatever you use to try to inwardly judge the motivations of others has failed the "radar" test.

Hence, looks like Zatamazalism is an epic failure if it's attempting to convey ANY basic level of discernment.

[Lazamataz]

You are an angry ex-Mormon.

You shouldn't lie.

[reaganaut]

ok, Laz.

[Lazamataz]

See the video I posted. You will understand.

[reaganaut]

You are an angry ex-Mormon.

You shouldn’t lie.

- - - - - -
Sorry, Laz. Colo was never Mormon and he has stated that many times and based upon what he says, he is well researched but was never ‘part of the club’ like I was.

He isn’t lying, nor is he angry. Passionate, yes, but not angry.

[reaganaut]

In case you got confused, the ‘crazy idea’ that Sandy wanted to know where fishtank got that from was this...

Fishtank - The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created THROUGH Him, BY Him and FOR Him.

They deny that Jesus created even the angels out of nothing.

Sandy denies that and wanted to know where he got that idea.

My response was he got that idea that Jesus didn’t create out of nothing from LDS leaders.

Sandy is the one wiggling. The LDS Jesus and God CANNOT create from nothing, just organize matter and spirits.

[reaganaut]

The close captioning on that apparently sucked, sorry but I still don’t get it.

[Colofornian]

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Creator. Where did you get such a crazy idea in the first place. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament and the Redeemer/Savior of the New Testament. All things were made by Him and nothing was made that was made but by Him.

ALL: This note by Saundra involves a "recipe" of a 1/2 cup of 1/2 truth mixed with a heavy dosage of a home-grown brand item that tries to pawn itself off as the "real thing"...

The smidgen of "truth" uttered here by Saundra is that, yes, Mormons say Jesus was "Creator"...and this is not only found in the Bible, but the "scriptures" exclusive to Mormonism.

What they don't tend to readily mention is these two things:

(1) Lds redefine the word "Creator" to mean "organizer"

They don't believe what the author of Hebrews called creation ex-nihilo (out of nothing) applies to their version of "Jesus" (or god, either). They don't believe Jesus -- or the Lds father-god -- had/has the power to create out of nothing. And this includes even people. Lds have a peculiar doctrine that spirits and intelligences are as eternal as anything divine. (This is found in D&C 93:29,33)

So, they say, you, me, the animal world, all of us...existed as "spirits" or "intelligences" from eternal past. We had no "we didn't exist" and "now we exist" moment.

So when a Mormon uses the word "create" -- they mean "organize", "design" or "arrange" ... but not literally create from nothing.

(2) While Saundra cites a portion of Colossians 1:16 -- "All things were made by Him and nothing was made that was made but by Him" -- what she fails to mention is that she doesn't believe that Jesus created or even "organized" Lucifer's jump-start as a spirit...nor anybody else's spirit.

Even tho spirits already existed, say Mormons; they have this weird doctrine that they underwent a second spirit jump-start when they were born to a god-mom and god-dad on a planet near the star Kolob. [And then, they say, we all had yet a third jump-start when we inhabited a body here on earth]

You see, Lds believe that Jesus as a spirit-creature was "spirit birthed" right before Lucifer and the rest...so, being Satan's spirit brother, the Mormon "jesus" could hardly have been his "creator."

So, when Saundra says "things" -- she likely means all "impersonal" things...and again, remember, even with "things" -- the Mormon god & the Mormon "jesus" were mere "organizers" of things...

[fishtank]

I post these graphics because:

(1) I have heard what former ldsers and what well-read researchers have said about lds beliefs., i.e. the lds believes that God did not create everything out of nothing.

(2) I have had CURRENT lds people tell me that what I am saying is true, but that I shouldn't say it, because they feel uncomfortable about discussing the issue and its implications.

(3) I believe that God's WORD is living and eternal and that He can use it to scrape away false doctrines from the souls of people.

(4) I post these because the false doctrines of human pre-existence and of eternal marriage are FALSE. They are useful hooks to get people to stay in the lds, but those doctrines are USELESS.

Why?

(A.) They diminish the creative power of God, that He created our spirits out of nothing, and

(B.) the eternal marriage doctrine defames and contradicts the teaching that Christians WILL be married in eternity. We will be married to Christ .... but NOT to each other.

[fishtank]

For the record,

I’m not ex-lds, either.

[Saundra Duffy]

I am a Mormon and you are preaching a FALSE doctrine about my Church. Just because you said it - doesn’t make it so. My personal Testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is everything to me. My Church teaches that Jesus Christ is the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament and the Savior/Redeemer of the New Testament. Since Jesus Christ is the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, then if A = B and B = C then A = C. Besides, Jesus Christ suffered and died for me. Amen.

[Saundra Duffy]

Blah blah blah. Same old anti Mormon/anti MormonISM stuff.

I have a Testimony - an unshakable Testimony - of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator, the Redeemer, Savior, Advocate with the Father, and Soon-Coming King.

I have no idea why this troubles some of you so very much. You’d think you’d be happy for me, that I have Jesus in my heart - that He suffered and died to save me from my sins.

But oh no you have to keep on with your silly activities as if you are obsessed with trashing my Church.

The Rev. Billy Graham ministry removed Mormons from their list of cults - so you were wrong about that, too. Or do you really propose to criticize the Rev. Billy Graham and pooh pooh his spiritual judgment? God help you if you do.

But cheer up, maybe you can get me banned again. Then you won’t have to be tormented by my Testimony and love for my Savior.

P.S. I used to be an anti Mormon, as you may know. I was surprised when I learned the Truth but it takes opening your mind and heart. I personally believe that so long as a person loves and confesses Jesus Christ and keeps the Commandments to the best of their abilities, that they are in good standing with the Savior. Jesus did not come to condemn us but to save us. I love Him so much!!!

[Godzilla]

uuuuuuh sd, your testimony doesn't address your objections. Care to REALLY try.

mormon teach 'god' created heavens and earth from pre-existing material (eternal).

“And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters. And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light” (Abraham 4:1-3).

Now Sd, why does Jehovah say there is no other true God besides himself?

[Colofornian]

Then you won’t have to be tormented by my Testimony and love for my Savior.

(Saundra: Tell us: What did the Mormon "savior" "save" you from?)

And what can a Mormon "savior" "save" you from -- that is more or less than what a person who might "baptize" my dead spirit by proxy?

[reaganaut]

Beat me to it. Well exegeted.

[reaganaut]

When I was at BYU, I took a senior seminar on ‘topics in LDS theology’. The ENTIRE class was how God the Father was NOT omnipotent (could not create or destroy matter), NOT omnipresent (had a body of flesh and bones) and NOT Omniscient (because he was still progressing).

The end of the class was about the time I was starting to leave the LDS and I had to write a paper for the class and I remember the first line of my paper was “Well, YOUR God may not be Omnipotent, but MINE is” then did a biblical study on the the power of God debunking all I had learned in that class.

[reaganaut]

Ironically, the pre-1990 temple endowment had this bit about God, given by the ‘preacher’ hired by Lucifer to teach Adam and Eve about religion.

Do you believe in a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who sits on the top of a topless throne; whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere; who fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; who is surrounded by myriads of beings who have been saved by grace, not for any act of theirs, but by his good pleasure? Do you believe in such a great being?

http://ldsendowment.org/paralleltelestial.html (NOT an ‘anti site’ but put up by faithful LDS).

The irony is it is a pretty good description of the Christian view of God.

[reaganaut]

am a Mormon and you are preaching a FALSE doctrine about my Church. Just because you said it - doesn’t make it so.

- - - - -
Sandra it is what your CHURCH teaches and what your LDS scriptures TEACH. Are you saying that your prophets have taught false doctrine?? Did Joseph prophesy falsely? Just because you say that the LDS teach it, doesn’t make it true.

In a revelation given June 1, 1833, the Lord referred to himself as “the Lord of Sabaoth, which is by interpretation, the creator of the first day, the beginning and the end” (D&C 95:7; italics added). In a doctrinal exposition by the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles in 1916, the meaning of the term creator was explained: “The Creator is an Organizer. God created the earth as an organized sphere; but He certainly did not create, in the sense of bringing into primal existence, the ultimate elements of the materials of which the earth consists, for ‘the elements are eternal’ Jesus Christ, whom we also know as Jehovah, was the executive of the Father, Elohim, in the work of creation.... He is very properly called the Eternal Father of heaven and earth.” (MFP 5:26-27; see also Talmage, 32-41.) Ancient Apostles and prophets also understood this concept, such as John (John 1:3), King Benjamin (Mosiah 3:8), and Samuel the Lamanite (Hel. 14:12). Doctrines and Covenants Encyclopedia, Hoyt W. Brewster, 1996.

Mormons believe in a God that organizes pre-existing matter. He does not create matter. Matter can be neither created, nor destroyed. “There is no such thing as immaterial matter.” (D&C 131:7) Joseph taught that matter and intelligence (the thinking part of you) are eternal, meaning not created.

Joseph Smith claimed that God did not make the earth

“out of nothing; for it is contrary to a rashanall mind & reason that a something could be brought from a nothing.....this earth was organized or formed out of other planets which were broke up and remodelled and made into the one on which we live.” (”Rough Stone Rolling”; Bushman, p. 421; from “Words of Joseph”, journal entries of first-hand witnesses)

So, Sandy, apparently you are outside what your church and scriptures teach.

[reaganaut]

Blah blah blah. Same old anti Mormon/anti MormonISM stuff.

I have a Testimony - an unshakable Testimony - of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator, the Redeemer, Savior, Advocate with the Father, and Soon-Coming King.

I have no idea why this troubles some of you so very much.

The Rev. Billy Graham ministry removed Mormons from their list of cults - so you were wrong about that, too.

I personally believe that so long as a person loves and confesses Jesus Christ and keeps the Commandments to the best of their abilities, that they are in good standing with the Savior.

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IT isn’t anti-Mormon stuff it is called Truth.

What bothers us is you claim to believe one thing but that isn’t what your church teaches. False religion won’t get you to heaven. What bothers us is Mormons TAKE THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST IN VAIN and insult Him by claiming the cross wasn’t enough, the Bible is corrupt and GOD IS NOT OMNIPOTENT. What bothers us is that Mormons twist the Bible then claim to be the ‘only true church’.

Your comments are consistently contrary to LDS teaching and doctrine and you keep repeating the same things over and over again even after we PROVE that isn’t what your church teaches.

And I don’t buy you were ever an ‘anti-Mormon’. It doesn’t pass the sniff test.

And Billy Graham removed the ENTIRE list of cults, not just the LDS and that was political. Besides, Graham isn’t our prophet, he doesn’t speak for Christianity. He is a man and can and does make mistakes and even sin. His kow-towing to Romney doesn’t make us wrong, it makes Graham wrong.

And as Paul taught, if you think WORKS HAS ANYTHING to do with being saved, then grace is no longer grace but you are binding yourself to the ENTIRE MOSAIC LAW - so you better start keeping Kosher.

Also your statement about what you ‘personally believe’ isn’t Mormon doctrine either. If you are so opposed to Mormon doctrine, why are you Mormon?

If you truly loved Jesus, you would not be Mormon. Mormons but ‘the Church’ over Christ.