Skip to comments.Catholic Conservatives and the Obama’s re-election
Posted on 11/07/2012 8:26:03 AM PST by annalex
These are a few thoughts that I have, as a Catholic layman and American nationalist. I am also a monarchist, and so I recognize the basic futility of a democratic political process in a culturally divided electorate: the country has been for the past several election cycles largely ungovernable because it has lost a common ethical consensus. However, even in this predicament, elections serve a useful purpose. That is because regardless of the efficacy of the democratic process, politics remain one tool available to us to forestall a national collapse, and, possibly, cause a cultural revival and reunification. These two are our fundamental political objectives. More precisely, a Catholic Conservative should, I think, espouse these medium-term commitments:
There is nothing a monarchist would change with respect of these goals. We, monarchists, understand that a monarchy can only happen as an organic development in the political life of a unified nation under God. I believe that given American political culture with its respect for self-government and property rights, a form of new feudalism will evolve constitutionally, and the new feudalism will give rise to a monarchy when this nation is sufficiently unified around our unique national idea.
Did the re-election of Obama set back these goals?
I believe that our goals were set back not last Tuesday but during the primary process. Governor Romney was perhaps, most presidential of the field of candidates, but even so, he structured his campaign on several false propositions: he avoided social issues and failed to propose an economic agenda that would captivate the American middle class. He correctly identified Obamacare as most odious feature of Obamas policies, but he failed to link it to its impact on the religious freedom, which was its most vulnerable element. Having instituted something at least vaguely similar to Obamacare in Massachusetts, he was in no position to attack Obamacares central premise of government takeover of the medical industry.
I further believe that had Romney been elected, the conservative goals would have been set back worse than they are set back now. That is because a Romneys victory would have vindicated the idea that the Republican Party can win elections without the social conservatives and without the conservative libertarians such as Dr. Ron Paul. Let us hope that the GOP learns the lessons of this year:
In the meanwhile, we are left with what the collective wisdom of the American people gave us: four more years of divided and therefore bounded by its partisan divisions federal government. This is, I believe, the best we could have hoped for. Let us use these years to grow the Tea Party, make it a better-rounded political force by engaging it more fully in our culture war, and be firm and brave defending our glorious Church from the enemies on the Left.
Ping to your lists, if you will.
Agreed, we dodged a bullet. Better to have one party opposing Obamacare than two parties that support it.
But man, we paid an awful cost in the senate last night.
Catholic Conservatives include Hispanics, large parts of the Catholic Church have created the moral hazard that it is ok to use the force of government to steal the fruits of another man’s labor for others.
In other words, steal for good.
Morally and Ethically, this should have been struck down and these people drummed out of the Church, but they weren’t.
SO... You have many Hispanic Catholics fooled into thinking it is ok for them to be conservative in their beliefs yet vote this way in their secular lives to get free stuff for themselves and their kin.
This is the same thinking of someone breaking into a foreclosed home to steal the fridge, they are taking from rich corrupt banks for the poor .... yet these rich banks are owned by both the rich and the poor ... and regardless it is still wrong without any justification.
This is the decline of the Catholic Church and the Conservatives in Society at large .... these two are related to the same cause.
Indeed they do but they do not include thieves.
My deepest hope for the Church is a declaration from the Pope that voting for a candidate in order to extract an gain from others ... is an ill-gotten gain .... theft ... and a sin against God.
I think you know what I am trying to say.
Yes, and that, too should be something for the GOP to learn from. For example, the unprecedented hounding of Akin by the GOP establishment was shameful.
Someone on Salvation's Daily Mass thread urged us not to post such things because social libertarians (his term) look at them and it might frighten them away from Romney. This is the cost of centrism.
I think that if the Bishops will not enforce the rules, then I must leave the church. I am saddened but with this marxist social justice theology now so prevelant, I have no choice.
John Paul II claims, following Pope Leo XIII, that human persons have rights that flow from the dignity granted to them by their nature. These rights, the Pope says, are inalienable and proper to every human person. Though the rights of human persons are many, for the sake of his argument the Pope names some that are specific. Among those that he names, there are five that are principally violated by socialism: the owning of private property, forming of professional associations, the limiting of working hours, the receiving of a just wage, and the discharge of one's religious duties (6-7). The Pope asserts that all these rights are natural, or in other words proper to man by his nature. For instance, the Pope cites that it is natural or proper for man to meet in associations with fellow men inasmuch as man is a social being. Also the Pope notes that these natural rights precede any cooperation with political or civil authority. Precedence is given to these right lies in their root in other inalienable right that are possessed by the human person. The chief rights to life, liberty and property allow for the specific rights that the Pope discusses to exist. This discussion of natural rights and precedence flows forth into a discussion about the relationship between people as individuals and the state. The Pope concludes with an affirmation of the individual human person. With his dignity and inalienable rights, the human person holds precedence over the institution or society as a whole. For it is the job of the State to protect the natural rights of its individual citizens and to supply the means for the attainment of the personal good (7). The State must be fair and equal and work to obtain good inasmuch as it is possible for each of its individual members (9).
Rome doesn’t police the American Catholic Church as it should be done. If it had Biden, Pelosi, Kerry and his awful wife, and most of the Kennedy’s would have been publicly ex-communicated long ago. The Catholic Church of my childhood no longer exists in the US and apparently not in Rome either.
Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is the root of all evils, which some coveting have erred from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10.3), they assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one's mode of life. (Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1878, n. 1)
I know what this means, but this is too vague for most of the uneducated masses.
The Bishops and Priests are supposed to teach but instead have advocated many of the Democrat Social Programs because they benefited the poor without realizing by doing so, they were advocating the confiscation of other people’s property for this purpose.
It is a problem of specificity and ignorance.
That's a non-sequitur. The church is there to lead you to salvation, not to police the rules. I agree with your frustration and share it, but there is but one Holy Church.
No, think that through again. It makes as little sense as to say
Mind the tagline:
I hear you, but Pelosi, Biden, Kennedy ad nauseum. They get to be in good standing? REALLY? I am adrift and demoralized today. Minnesota also rejected the marriage amendment. The Republic is in peril and so is the church.
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:26)
 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh:  Making void the law of commandments contained in decrees; that he might make the two in himself into one new man, making peace; And might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, killing the enmities in himself (Ephesians 2)
Peace is a person. Same person as the Truth. Have peace with Him, and who partakes of Him along with you, then he has the same peace as you do, and he who does not partake of Him rejected the peace through no fault of your own.
Anger is but a passion. Mortify it. "If by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live" (Romans 8:13)
I have a certain disgust about sloth and cowardice in high places, but I'm afraid I come under the same indictment. The solution isn't to abandon ship. The solution goes like this: To our knees. Then: to our feet.
People who go against Church teaching that murdering your children with contraceptives is still murder just like abortion will care about being called thieves?
Come on, the Catholic Church has to face the fact that these people are no longer Catholic. The Catholic Church is at best a family tradition or part of their "ethnic heritage" to them.
They worship their Self, just like the majority of non-Catholics who claim to be Christian do. The majority of the population in this country will murder their own children to avoid economic burdens, but they'll spend every cent they have and can borrow to keep their "naughty bits" exercised.
When when the remaining faithful are so few in number that no one can claim they won without the intervention of the Lord, that's when He will intervene and turn things around. Unless, of course, they're not supposed to turn around because the murder of nearly sixty million infants has to be punished in kind.
Because I respect you both, I will take what you have said under advisement. I will pray about it. Thanks.
We really all need to examine our consciences and turn back to God. God’s vote isn’t counted yet — read that thread.
Also we need to get to our local city and county governments and start electing pro-lifers and Christians there. Then the principle of subsidiarity, which everyone seemed to dismiss when Paul Ryan discussed it, can take effect.
What is subsidiarity for those of you who may be unfamiliar with the word?
It is letting the smalles government or organization take care of the problem. (Not big government!!!)
And it seems not only Catholics, but many others lost their sense of solidarity in voting — solidarity is just plain common sense.
I am also interested in the numbers of freeloaders on food stamps, reduced mortgages, free lunches, etc. who voted for Obama and have asked Alex Murphy to check into it.
Are also considering renouncing your citizenship and leaving the country?
No, and Thank You for putting that in perspective. I guess my frustration is overwhelming my logic today.
The coward “bishop” of Wilmington, where Biden currently resides, has specifically refused to ban the anti-Christ’s room-temperature-IQ pet from the Blessed Sacrament.
It is the now-retired bishop of Scranton who banned Biden, but since Biden is no longer part of that diocese, it has little practical effect. Bishop Martino retired at a rather young age - 63 - not long after the 2008 election, during which he reiterated his ban on pro-abortion politicians.
As well, the current archbishop of San Francisco has declined to ban Nazi Pelosi from Holy Communion, as well.
Much of the voting behavior of the laity is the fault of the bishops, corporately. It is the fault of the laity, as well, for failing to take seriously the teachings of the Church, but the bishops are supposed to be modeled after the Good Shepherd. Most of them act like the hired hands of whom Jesus spoke.
Good. I meant to ask him to check into me, too :)
The country may be at a point, or close to a point, when subsidiarity is plain impossible unless we wangle ourselves some kind of relic status like the Amish. Observe:
An inward closure may not be an option for the American Catholics.
It's particularly bitter that the bishops refuse to follow Canon Law (Canon 915) almost to a man; and then they expect us to defend their Constitutional right to the "free exercise" of a religious integrity they do not preach, and expect neither their institutions nor their people to practice.
While the bishops bear much of the blame for the condition of American Catholicism, equal blame goes to the Republican (I don’t expect anything from the Democrats) politicians. It was the job of the political class to explain how, for example, the contraception mandate is a violation of basic American civics. Change in the arena of civil rights won’t occur until our political culture improves. We still don’t have a cadre of front-row politicians who can make a coherent argument for their own faith, let alone for the rights of other believers. Santorum was a happy exception, let’s hope others take it where he left off.
100% of the blame goes to the bishops.
But have no fear. This isn't a zero-sum game. There's plenty of blame to go around.
100% of the blame also goes to laity who didn't vote for Gov. Romney. The Kenyan anti-Christ is just that bad.
A special 100% of the blame goes to Catholics who actually permanently disfigured their souls by voting FOR the anti-Christ.
Another 100% of the blame can be allotted to anti-Catholic bigots who have persuaded low-IQ Catholics that they need to be less Catholic to be more American.
For good measure, I'll grant you, annalex, 100% of the blame to the Republican Party, which seemed to run as hard from social issues as it could, thus alienating a large part of its base.
But ultimately, we must, in all fairness, give credit where credit is due, and award the bishops ANOTHER 100% of the blame for their abject moral failures over the past decades.
I did not vote for Romney. In the past several elections I wrote in constitution Party and this time I wrote in Ron Paul. As much as my heart wanted Obama to be defeated, it was more important for the country that the Republican party learns its lessons and stops nominating GHW Bushes, Doles, McCains, Romneys. Romney elected would have been an end of conservative politics for the foreseeable future. I am glad that peril, at least, was avoided.
Then you are 100% to blame for all the ill that befalls us as a result of the anti-Christ getting a second term.
You are now responsible for Obamacare. For the HHS mandate. For strangling our energy industry. For strangling our economy with high taxes and burdensome regulations. For taxpayer-funded abortions. For Supreme Court justices that will confirm Roe into the next century. For ever abortion committed from now until Roe is finally overturned. For the coming persecution of Christians, especially Catholics. For the existing persecutions of Christians in parts of the world where the anti-Christ has enabled Christian-killers to come to power.
Thank you for your thoughtful actions.
I do believe every evil is permitted by the Lord for the sake of salvation. The only way evils can be seen is if they come to the surface and can be examined and repented from.
We are in a state of spiritual warfare in this country. I now live in the reddest of red states (the buckle of the Bible belt) and have found happiness. In my community, we put the kingdom of God first and work to bring heaven to earth through charity to the neighbor.
I saw these qualities in several primary candidates -- Perry, Cain and Santorum but quickly realized the evil enabling media will never allow a person of faith near the White House again. They are too concerned with their 'rights' and losing them. By the end of the election, Obama's people totally exposed what they were -- liars and thieves -- and were still elected.
We saw in 2010 what was possible at a grass roots level. Santorum had some of that going but he had to fight the left wing media and the GOP-e. Soon, money will be devalued to the point that a real conservative can emerge that can defeat the hate machine. We aren't there yet. Meantime for me, I'll focus my efforts on things I can touch - Church, neighbors, family and community. The federal government I look to nothing for.
Not at all. I did the best corrective action I could so that Romney and future GOP candidates like him would not take us to the same place Obama is taking us, slower.
You know the story about the frog, right?
That is not entirely true. Or at least it is not true so far that we can know. Leaving aside the fact that neither of the three looked quite prepared for the task, the role of the mainstream media should not have been a surprise. The GOP could have embraced a religious candidate such as any of these three with a passion and could have waged an organized campaign against the very media, treating the media as a condensed Democrat candidate. Instead the GOP decided to place all its bets on the economy, which, inconveniently, is not quite dead yet, and play to the undecided voter by appearing undecided themselves. They avoided the fight and now they have been defeated because of that. Let's hope they learned something.
An inward closure may not be an option for the American Catholics."
What the government would do doesn't really matter. The majority of Catholics and all other Christians in this country had already made it clear they'd rather hang separately than yield enough personal sovereignty to hang together with anyone for any reason.
(sitetest) Then you are 100% to blame for all the ill that befalls us as a result of the anti-Christ getting a second term.
Knock it off sitetest, and take a hard, sobering look at the voting percentages in each of the "blue" states. There was simply no way that Romney could have won any of them even if all of the third party votes had gone to him instead. The combined totals of Romney votes and third party votes never came close to 50% of the voting public in the blue states.
There is no parallel to the 1992 vote, wherein Perot siphoned off enough votes that Clinton received a majority but still failed to reach 50% of the popular vote. Third party votes didn't make Romney lose, they only made him lose by a larger percentage. Obama got more than 51% of the popular vote in every single one of the blue states.
“...seething with anger...” Brother, I hear you loud and clear. Righteous anger is not sinful, but our fallen nature makes it very difficult to stay within bounds. Anger is dangerous to the soul. That is one important reason that I very seldom enter a church where the novus ordo (”ordinary form”) Mass is offered, especially a famous or beautiful church, even as a tourist. The thought of the church being desecrated...the sacrileges...you understand. Just being there is bad for the soul.
That is because the economic reality hasn’t sunk in yet. It usually takes a generation. People think that the industrial base will come back somehow by itself and that the deficit will somehow shrink by itself, that the fab weirdos in San Francisco and New York are not going to demand anything of them, that the welfare class will somehow get on with their lives without burning down their neighborhoods, that we can all get along as soon as we master some Spanish, — middle class lethargy, in short.
For what it’s worth I did a write-in in California (blue) as well as in Missouri (red), albeit I admit it would have been more vexing had I lived in a battleground state.
I voted straight Republican otherwise. It is the presidential politics where the two-party system is killing us.
You’re right - the economy isn’t dead yet. Until it is, spiritual principles will not return on a wider scale and enable a national majority of people of faith. And, until the GOP gets it’s priorities straight (a soul searching), I don’t know that they are the Tea Party’s ‘vehicle’.
The argument you can make is not that you're not responsible for all the ills that will befall us, but that you believe that worse ills would have befallen us if Gov. Romney had been elected.
You are responsible for the ills you have helped bring about by your vote. You are not responsible for the ills that may have been avoided by your failure to vote for Mr. Romney. If Mr. Romney had one, I'd be responsible for those prospective (but not certain) ills.
From my perspective, the ills that you fear were prospective, possible, even quite possible. But not inevitable. The ills for which you are responsible are inevitable. They are, barring an entirely supernatural intervention by God (which He could just as easily accomplish with a President Romney) are now set in stone.
We will not repeal Obamacare.
We will not avoid ruinous tax hikes.
We will not see justices appointed to the Supreme and lower courts who might be inclined to overturn Roe. We will almost certainly see at least one or two conservative, anti-Roe justices replaced in the next four years.
We will have taxpayer-funded (that's you and me gettin’ to pay for them!) abortion.
We will see further destruction of our rights and liberties.
Once Obamacare is fully implemented, that, by itself, is pretty much game over. It changes our national DNA. We become one, big client state. There was a chance to turn back under a President Romney. There will be no chance no matter who is elected in 2016. Look at Great Britain, where, even with a badly failing National Health Service, the “conservative” party must now foreswear touching the NHS.
The same thing happened with Social Security and with Medicare. For those populations “served,” people quickly become unable to imagine life without them.
All these things are baked in the cake.
And they are ruinous, in and of themselves.
We must now go back to the beginning. We are now strangers in a strange land. We will need to spend generations, perhaps a century or two, trying to recover our culture, in part, through political means. There is no guarantee that we might succeed. In fact, I'd say the odds are long. The world is now guaranteed, though, to become more dangerous, more hostile, especially toward Christians, and for our nation to become a former great power, to the great, great detriment of ourselves and the rest of the world.
We can no longer preserve our culture and try to strengthen and rebuild. It is now lost, especially through the expedient method of politics. We are the Christians, again, in pagan Rome.
I never really wanted to be a martyr. But I may get my chance, yet. And as faithful Catholics, so may my wife and sons. Thank you very much.
The economy is one aspect with crisis potential. Another is the Left’s victory in the culture war. Right now, all these gay marriages, free contraception, death panels, collectivization of the medical profession and the like are stuff that happens to someone else. When it molests your child, pulls the plug on your grandma, and your pastor is carted off for insensitivity, people will start waking up.
You are responsible for the ills you have helped bring about by your vote. You are not responsible for the ills that may have been avoided by your failure to vote for Mr. Romney....From my perspective, the ills that you fear were prospective, possible, even quite possible. But not inevitable. The ills for which you are responsible are inevitable. They are, barring an entirely supernatural intervention by God (which He could just as easily accomplish with a President Romney) are now set in stone....
....I never really wanted to be a martyr. But I may get my chance, yet. And as faithful Catholics, so may my wife and sons. Thank you very much.
I exhort you to read my post #38 again. And to knock off the blame game.
On that, I agree. But I see a benefit in at least seeing that for a fact.
the ills that you fear were prospective, possible, even quite possible. But not inevitable.
With the GOP dead set on the theory that to win elections we have to field the leftmost liberal from Massachusetts that still calls himself a Republican, they would have been inevitable, and worse, they would have been incorrigible. If not Romney himself then another GHW Bush, Dole or McCain after him would have handed all that down to you, and in a bipartisan manner, too.
Yours is the same mentality that gave us the national debt: if we only borrow another trillion, maybe that "prospective, possible, even quite possible" national default will not be our epitaph. Just like on fiscal policy, on social policy it is time for us to come for our money. Field a romney and loose. You have been warned.
Where there's life, there's always hope.
Where things are merely prospective, they aren't inevitable.
I didn't think politics were going to save us. We are too far gone for that.
Only repentance and turning back toward God will save our country.
But where there is still time, there can still be a turning away from sin, and hence, disaster.
Thus, even if it gave us only a few more years before looming catastrophe, we might have made use of that time, we might have avoided complete collapse. Or not! We may have run out of time, anyway.
But I'd rather have more of a chance than less of a chance.
Now, disaster will not be avoided. As the movie said, there will be blood.
And lots of it.
“Field a romney and loose. You have been warned.”
I didn't field a Romney. I voted otherwise in the primaries. But once he was the nominee, it became pretty clear: possible, even likely long-term catastrophe with Romney; unavoidable, relatively short-term catastrophe with the Kenyan.
As well, there is the matter of degrees. The fall will be far harder, far more damaging, far more difficult from which to recover with the Kenyan than with Mr. Romney.
With a President Romney, the loss of our mediating institutions - our schools, our hospitals, etc., was a possibility, some time in the future, avoidable. With the anti-Christ, these things will be on us in short order. With a President Romney, actual jailing and possible exterminations of Christians, especially Catholics, for the practice of the faith, was a long-term possibility. Now it is almost unavoidable, and sooner rather than later.
At this time, even if the vast majority of Americans repented of our crimes, it is too late. Disaster looms.
There is always hope, both practical and supernatural. The new avenue of hope opens with Romney’s defeat: a chance for the GOP machine to fix its primaries process, for the GOP policy wonks to re-wonk conservatism and to give credibility, tactical support and polish to the Tea Party, and to re-engage the voting public with something better than what-to-do-with-that-upper-tax-bracket there-are-no-abortion-laws-that-I-will-change candidates.
Waiting for a few more years before the deck goes vertical is not a hope, it is foolishness. Time to act is now. Here’s a realistic goal: take the Senate in 2014 (20 Dem seats in play, several in red states), when there is no romney to get in the way.
What hope remains is solely supernatural.
“The new avenue of hope opens with Romneys defeat: a chance for the GOP machine to fix its primaries process,...”
This is a foolish remark. Politics is no longer anything that will save us, help us to avert, or even put off for a time, the destruction we face as a nation.
The next election is in 2016. It will no longer be possible by then to undo Obamacare, which, by itself, defeats us as it turns us into a secular, Western Europe social welfare state where, by virtue of its ability to define “health care,” the government - now controlled by the most radical leftists who have ever been elected in the United States - gets to define everything. Morality, social structures, what defines a family, what defines the tenets of a particular religion or faith, the rules of our mediating institutions - our churches, our schools, our private civic associations - everything.
We already saw in this last election that we are at the tipping point of creating dependence among so many that they will never vote to undo their dependence. Obamacare hastens and deepens that dependence. In the next four years, without any additional action on the part of the Congress, we will move past the event horizon of the black hole.
Cardinal George said that the HHS mandate will cause the church to shutter her schools, hospitals, every mediating institution run by the church, within two years. He says this hoping to scare the anti-Christ into compromise. He, along with all the other bishops, just isn't very bright. That is where the Kenyan wishes to go. It's a twofer for him. He gets rid of the competing civic institutions AND he causes a crisis in health care (and education) that will permit the erection of single-payer, entirely government-controlled health care.
“Waiting for a few more years before the deck goes vertical is not a hope, it is foolishness.”
Torpedoing the ship right now because we don't like waiting aboard a ship that is slowly sinking is the greater foolishness.
“Heres a realistic goal: take the Senate in 2014 (20 Dem seats in play, several in red states), when there is no romney to get in the way.”
It isn't Gov. Romney that prevented morons Akin and Mourdock from being elected. It isn't Gov. Romney that got in the way of Scott Brown. Mr. Smith more likely dragged down Gov. Romney in Pennsylvania than vice versa, as the governor ran way out in front of Mr. Smith (who lost with less than 40% of the vote, if I recall correctly). It isn't Gov. Romney who caused the bitter primary fight in Wisconsin that left Tommy Thompson broke and unable to fight for that seat.
Besides which, the anti-Christ doesn't actually need any new legislation. All he needs to do is maintain the status quo, and it's over. And in that he has extraconstitutionally expanded executive orders beyond all imagining, with a supine press, and even Republican House, a few more of these, and he'll be able to change Obamacare into single-payer even without new legislation.
As for judicial appointments, unless your magical new primary process results in replacing all the Republicans in the Senate, even with a newly-minted majority, they will confirm pretty much all his Supreme picks and most of his other picks.
The barbarians are in the gate. This election was the possibility to force them out of the city long enough for reinforcements to arrive. In re-electing Satan's bitch, we have surrendered the city to the sacking of the invaders. We have given them all that is valuable for them to ruin, destroy and despoil. There is no turning back, now.
You have voted for certain, immediate destruction versus possible harm, even great harm, in the long-term.
I hear you.
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