Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Jesus Christ as Elder Brother [Mitt's ancestor originated Lds idea treating Jesus as mere brother]
BYU Studies ^ | 2006 | Corbin Volluz

Posted on 07/18/2012 5:07:41 AM PDT by Colofornian

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints often refer to Jesus Christ as their elder brother. This expression of endearment appears in sermons, lessons, and publications...The title is used enough that some might think that elder brother is one of the many titles attributed to Christ in the scriptures, but nowhere do the scriptures use this expression in reference to Jesus. Nor can the idea that Jesus is our elder brother be ascribed with certitude to the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith...

Beginning in 1844 we find the first instances in which the Church leaders use the phrase elder brother...to refer to Christ. These six recordings were all recorded contemporaneously. June 22, 1844, Orson Pratt...

The concept that Christ is the elder brother...does not appear to have been actually articulated and recorded until 1871 by Orson Pratt:

Now, who is Jesus? He is only our brother, but happens to be the firstborn...how is he the firstborn? Because he is the eldest--the first one born of the whole family of spirits and therefore is our elder brother.

...It is apparently Orson Pratt, then, who should be credited with the first attempt to...use the title elder brother as applied to Jesus. It was Orson Pratt who first recorded the concept that Jesus is "our Brother" shortly before the death of Joseph Smith, and Orson Pratt who first articulated that Jesus is all humankind's elder brother in the spirit...

Section 93, an 1833 revelation to Joseph Smith, allows implicitly the idea of brotherhood with Jesus: since human spirits are eternal, these spirits were with God in the beginning just as Jesus was.

SNIP

To those not familiar with the plan of salvation, hearing Jesus Christ called an elder brother might be misunderstood as a diminution of Christ's high status...

(Excerpt) Read more at byustudies.byu.edu ...


TOPICS: History; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: elderbrother; inman; jesuschrist; lds; mormonism
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-182 next last
#1 The author is Mormon; published by BYU.

#2 Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt is Mitt Romney's great-great grandfather [Relationships table in Wikipedia Pratt family entry]

#3 From the article: Re this Jesus reference as "Elder Brother," ...nowhere do the scriptures use this expression in reference to Jesus.

(IOW, even the "scriptures" the Mormons added to the Bible -- the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine & Covenants -- NONE of these were the source of this reference!)

#4 From the article: Beginning in 1844 we find the first instances in which the Church leaders use the phrase elder brother...to refer to Christ. These six recordings were all recorded contemporaneously. June 22, 1844, Orson Pratt...The concept that Christ is the elder brother...does not appear to have been actually articulated and recorded until 1871 by Orson Pratt:

The article quotes a second-hand source for Pratt's June 22, 1844 usage, as well as his first written recorded usage in 1871 -- the '71 excerpt: Now, who is Jesus? He is only our brother, but happens to be the firstborn...how is he the firstborn? Because he is the eldest--the first one born of the whole family of spirits and therefore is our elder brother.

From the article: ...It is apparently Orson Pratt, then, who should be credited with the first attempt to...use the title elder brother as applied to Jesus. It was Orson Pratt who first recorded the concept that Jesus is "our Brother" shortly before the death of Joseph Smith, and Orson Pratt who first articulated that Jesus is all humankind's elder brother in the spirit...

1 posted on 07/18/2012 5:07:52 AM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: All
#5 While the Bible...
(a)...presents Jesus as fully man -- in fact, a suffering Servant (Isaiah 53);
(b)...presents some of mankind as adopted children of God -- whereas legalists like the Pharisees were labeled by Jesus as children of the devil (John 8)...
...(c)...Mormonism disregards Jesus' teaching in John 8 and attempts to present ALL as automatic children of God...and does this on the basis of its unique teaching that ALL were born as spirits to a God-Mom and God-Dad on a planet near the star "Kolob." Hence, Jesus is presented as the "firstborn" of these spirits "born." Hence, both Lds and Jehovah's Witnesses reduce Jesus to more of a "created" status. What Orson Pratt -- and the Mormon general authorities -- failed to realize is that when the apostle Paul used "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15, he used a Greek word (arche) as a metaphor for rank/sovereignty. Paul echoed one of David's Psalms: "I will also make him My firstborn, greatest of the kings of the earth" (Ps. 89:27). Elsewhere, Israel is labeled God's 'firstborn' (Ex. 4:22)...clearly Israel wasn't first in a series, as Mormons sadly interpreted "firstborn."

#6 The author of this BYU-published study seemed to realize the way non-Mormons would comprehend this unique Lds teaching, saying: The article concedes To those not familiar with the plan of salvation, hearing Jesus Christ called an elder brother might be misunderstood as a diminution of Christ's high status...

But let's face it, if the Mormon pre-existent narrative was historically true --
--if you, I, Lucifer, and Jesus were all siblings to each other, "born" to a Mom-God and a Dad-God near Kolob...
...and Jesus was the first of the "litter" and Lucifer the second of the "litter"...
...then before the Mormon story of how both Jesus and Lucifer presented their "plans of salvation" to Dad-God, there wasn't any significant difference substance-wise between the Son of God, Lucifer, or you and me! The lone distinction was supposedly mere spiritual birth order--The Mormon Jesus supposedly having been birth first in some "pre-existent world!"

Of course, what this does then is to greatly reduce the unique status of the Son of God from eternity past, something Mormonistic theology loves to do! IOW, Jesus wasn't so unique from eternity history past: Lucifer was "spirit-born" just like Jesus! And so were the rest of us, says Mitt Romney's ancestor and says Mormonism!

[NOTE: Mormonism further reduces the uniqueness of Jesus Christ's deity by claiming that ALL of us are "gods-in-embryo" -- and each have the potential to become full-grown-up gods. (You only have to be baptized Mormon; become a member in good standing with a temple recommend; obey all their laws and covenants; etc.)]

2 posted on 07/18/2012 5:10:50 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Let's get off of Mitts religion..this week of Obama antics has convinced me we need to replace him at all costs.At least Mitt has a religion..Obama’s only religion is himself.
3 posted on 07/18/2012 5:11:45 AM PDT by dalebert
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All
#7 Of course, this is then where Mike Huckabee was roundly criticized in December of 2007 for merely asking if the Mormons taught Satan was Jesus' brother.

Yes, the Mormons teach that. Yes, the Mormons had their feathers ruffled by that exposition! They acted as if it wasn't taught by its leaders. (Goes to show you that either some were ignorant of their own teachings; or, they had a temporary problem of placing public relations over image)

Per the official Lds magazine Ensign: On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers…But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother.
Secondary source: Is Jesus Christ the Spirit Brother of Satan?

Then...go back to late January 2010. Rexburg Idaho. Home of BYU-Idaho. An Lds apostle, M. Russell Ballard, gives an unscripted fireside "convo" with Mormon students. See: Ballard speaks on Mormons in the media from the Rexburg Standard Journal, which covers the talk.

Ballard let the "cat out of the bag" there as well: From the Rexburg article: "You remember Mr. (Mike) Huckabee (who was also vying to be the Republican candidate for president), who among other things said that Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil were brothers?" Ballard asked students. "Remember that? It went all over the media. "Well they are!" Ballard exclaimed to a laughing student body.

Ah, yes. When Mormons accused Huckabee of lying about this -- or worse. They were all offended. Get them behind closed doors, and they laugh about the reality of having Mormon worldviews pegged in the public square.

So, here, we have an Lds general authority conceding that -- to quote him "Well they are!" in reference to the issue of whether they cite "Jesus and the devil are brothers."

Now in case someone views that this information needs to be suppressed...not let it become aired out...or they think that we are overriding realities in our assessments of Mormonism, Elder Ballard concedes at this fireside chatm adding: "But they (the media and nonmembers) don't understand that, because they don't have the (LDS gospel) restoration. They don't understand the spiritual relationship that ... we are all sons and daughters of God, and that Lucifer was one of those and (that) he chose to use his agency in an unrighteous way."

Let's read what some other Mormons have had to say on this subject:

* An LDS "Seventy" named Milton R. Hunter wrote: "The appointment of Jesus to be Saviour of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, Son of the Morning ....this spirit brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Saviour of Mankind." MILTON R. HUNTER (First Council of 70) The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15, 1958

* Brigham Young said: “Who will redeem the earth, who will go forth and make the sacrifice for the earth and all things it contains?” The Eldest Son said: “Here am I”; and then he added, “Send me.” But the second one, which was “Lucifer, Son of the Morning,” said, “Lord, here am I, send me, I will redeem every son and daughter of Adam and Eve that lives on the earth, or that ever goes on the earth.” (Journal of Discourses, pp. 53-54)

* In 1844, LDS author and hymn-writer W.W. Phelps wrote: "And again, we exclaim, O Mormonism! No wonder that Lucifer, son of the morning, the next heir to Jesus Christ, our eldest brother, should fight so hard against his brethren; he lost the glory, the honor, power, and dominion of a God and the knowledge, spirit, authority and keys of the priesthood of the son of God!"

* In 1949 this LDS Conference Report features LDS apostle Joseph F. Merrill, who says that Lucifer "is a spirit brother of ours and of our Lord Jesus Christ..." Here's the exact quote:

"Now there is another personality of which I desire to speak, ... that person is Satan, the Devil. But according to our understanding and teaching, Satan is a person with a spirit body, in form like that of all other men. He is a spirit brother of ours and of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is our Elder Brother in the spirit world. The earth was in course of development for the abode of man in mortality. A Redeemer was to be sent down and make it possible for the Father's children to return to him." (LDS Conference Report, April 1949, p. 27)

* LDS Apostle John A. Widtsoe taught that Jesus is not only the brother of Jesus, but his "elder brother." Exact quote:

"The story of Lucifer is the most terrible example of such apostasy. ... He pitted his own plan and will against the purposes of God. He strove to gain the birthright of his Elder Brother, Jesus the Christ." (Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 209)

The bottom-line of all of this, is that, per Mormonism, not only is the Mormon "Jesus" our "elder brother," but so is the Mormon Satan. Ask your fellow Lds neighbors and co-workers: Is Satan your elder brother. I've asked Lds missionaries; and they've had to concede they believe that!

4 posted on 07/18/2012 5:13:05 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Let’s put the criminal charlatan playing President in the limelight, shall we?

It Wasn’t Mitt Romney Who:

Apologized for this great nation.
Bowed in submission to the third world dictators.
Wrote his autobiography without a life.
Threw your money at failing fantasies.
Studied under Communists.
Insulted American surgeons, the world’s best.
Prohibited for oil in America.
Condemned, verbally, the rich he was in partnership with (Goldman Sachs, etc.).
Lied about a transparent administration.
Stole GM from its stockholders.
Appointed a tax cheat as secretary of the treasury.
Created death panels.
Attacked Arizona.
Put Cloward-Piven into practice.
Supplied Mexican drug gangs with arms.
Set a record for Boeing 747 mileage by a president.
Played 100 golf games his first three years in office on your tax money.
Used a second jumbo jet for his wife. (Muslims fly separately)
Blamed everything wrong on his predecessor.
Appointed unqualified Supreme Court justices.
Lied about Obamacare (PPACCA).
Insulted and threatened the Supreme Court publicly.
Threatened Congress and anyone who disagreed with him.
Refused to take responsibility for anything, ever.
Posed as an authentic American black person.
Hid behind his race.
Listened to sermons for twenty years and never heard one.
Voted as Illinois Senator to kill live, already born, babies.
Attacked Boeing, pampered and funded unions with billion$.
“Stimulated” wealthy Wall Street banks and unions; (your tax money in action)
Campaigned for re-election 3.5 years on public funds.
Took God out of Thanksgiving.
Cut down our defense forces (START treaty).
Said he wasn’t (ha!) an “ideologue.
Got us into some more wars.
Presided over the doubling of fuel prices.
Promised to bankrupt any new coal-fired generating plants
Inhibited the development of American coal, oil, uranium and timber resources.
Supported the Muslim Brotherhood.
Created many unconstitutional “czars”.
Left out ‘Creator’ from the Declaration of Independence.
Denigrated the United States, its history and it’s founders.
Attacked Rush Limbaugh whenever he remembered him.
Did his utmost to divide Americans.
Used the Gulf oil spill to advance his agenda.
Defended and promoted Islam while neglecting Christianity.
Lied about his birth, his records and practically everything else.
Promised your money to Mexican invaders.
Instituted de-facto amnesty to the invaders.
Who first used the phrase “pull the plug on Grandma.”
Funded slumlords Valerie Jarrett and Tony Rezko.
Got his wife a $316,000 a year nothing job.
Was nominated by illegal contributions and voter fraud.
Was elected the same way.
Targeted American citizens as terrorists without a trial.
Moved census control to the White House.
Lived a king’s life, while asking us to sacrifice.
Cancelled 77 oil field development contracts.
Bypassed Congressional reviews of appointees.
Misplaced 17,000 overseas military votes.
Allowed voter intimidation by Black Panthers for Barack Obama’s election.
Dictatorially set carbon emission standards (Congress’ job)
Bribery: “Cornhusker Kickback” & “Louisiana Purchase” so as to pass PPACCA
Punished Republican car dealers.
Lied about us keeping our doctors and healthcare companies.
Used taxpayers’ money to fund Democrat propaganda and campaign junkets.
Gave $26 billion of food stamp money to teachers’ unions.
Avoided press conferences like the plague.
Switched our allies with our enemies.
Gave Interpol sovereignty over U.S. law enforcement.
Allowed the FCC try to control the internet.
Wanted the U.S. to submit to U.N. laws (Law Of The Sea, gun control, etc.).
Robbed the middle class and gave it to the ruling class - a Communist habit.
Politically exploited environmentalism - another item from the Communist Manifest
Was our first Marxist President.


5 posted on 07/18/2012 5:14:07 AM PDT by RoadTest (There is one god, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: All
From the study: Section 93, an 1833 revelation to Joseph Smith, allows implicitly the idea of brotherhood with Jesus: since human spirits are eternal, these spirits were with God in the beginning just as Jesus was

Except that this actually presents more problems for the Mormon narrative -- not less! How so?

Well, I recall an article from the Lds church owned Deseret News, where the specially appointed columnist dealing with issues within the Media commented: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints likewise takes no definitive view of when the embryo or fetus acquires a soul... [Source: LDS beliefs in Focus

I said then: Let me get this straight: Lds think man has been...
(1) as eternal as its god – that “intelligences” self-exist from eternity past (LDS Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33).
(2) Then somehow these intelligences, who were beginningless, had “beginnings” as spirit babies of a god & goddess in some “pre-existence.”
(3) Then the spirit baby fully matured in the “pre-existence.”
(4) Then it came to pass that this spirit baby passed down an earthly birth canal. This time to a second set of parents (humans on earth).
(5) Oh. But the LDS general authorities, according to their own complex belief system, conclude that it ”takes no definitive view of when...” this “intelligence-baby spirit-fully matured spirit-now-embryo" has ”acquired a soul.”
Oh. Just Oh.
(If these entities "birthed" in heaven have no soul, what are they?)

I would add...if these "human spirits were eternal" -- and already existed BEFORE being "spirit born" to a Mom-God near Kolob, why did they need yet another beginning point? (They contradict)

Now, how do Mormons define "spirit?" If you look under the "Spirit" entry in LDS church-published Bible Dictionary, 1979 (p. 776) -- in back of Holy Bible, you'll find this entry:

"That is, ALL forms of living things--man, beast and vegetation--existed as individual spirits, before any form of life existed upon the earth. The spirit is in the likeness of the physical body, as demonstrated in Gen. 2:5; 1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15-16; D&C 77:2; 129; Moses 3:4-7. Furthermore, all spirit is matter,but is more refined and pure than mortal element (D&C 131:7)."

So. If you take the infinite regression teaching of the Mormon church -- infinitely regressing, we ALL have supposedly "existed" in some form -- [again, see @ Doctrine & Covenant 93:29,33 above...this teaches WE are as eternal (past) as God/Jesus, etc. -- & that spirits & intelligences & elements ALWAYS existed!!!
...and couple it with this above eternal regression teaching...that vegetation & beasts were co-existent alongside us as fellow "spirits" once upon a time...and that we all have ALWAYS existed...

Sometimes esoteric macabre teachings that you think are so FAR out there...are actually mainstream Mormonism!

For more on D&C 93:29,33 and the so-called "Mormon pre-existence" and "Kolob," you can see recent threads:
* PRE-EXISTENCE? Reason 22 [Another planetary pre-existence exist as Lds believe? Ex-Lds says 'no']
* Mormon Science and Space Doctrines [Kolobian cosmology]
* “Save Kolob”: Church News Says Book of Abraham “Not Central to the Restored Gospel”

6 posted on 07/18/2012 5:14:07 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RoadTest
Are you an apologist for Mormonism now?

Who converted you?

7 posted on 07/18/2012 5:15:02 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: dalebert

And B.Obamas intimidate ancestors believed that Jesus did not die on the cross but that Judas did (or good chance as it is a common belief in islam) so we now have 2 equally dislikeable postions vis a vie classical Christian beliefs, so now to look at other points that we can agree or disagree with. I have no great disagreement with the church of j.smith and that of mohammad so on the rest of the issues M.Romney is better than B.Obama at lest to me.


8 posted on 07/18/2012 5:18:55 AM PDT by Bidimus1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: RoadTest

Great list.


9 posted on 07/18/2012 5:19:17 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore (If Obama were twice as smart as he is, he would be a wit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Bidimus1

edit’’I have great DISAGREEMENT


10 posted on 07/18/2012 5:20:13 AM PDT by Bidimus1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: RoadTest

Thank you.

If freedom of religion exists, it must exist for the Romney family as well.

I’ll take the mormon over the moron any day.


11 posted on 07/18/2012 5:21:19 AM PDT by mom4melody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: dalebert; All
At least Mitt has a religion'

(So do Satanists; so do Scientologists)...

L. Ron Hubbard could have easily substituted Kolob for Venus in his religion.

Since L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology founder) taught:

...when a person dies — or, in Scientology terms, when a thetan abandons its physical body — they go to a "landing station" on the planet Venus, where the thetan is re-implanted and told lies about its past life and its next life. The Venusians take the thetan, "capsule" it, and send it back to Earth to be dumped into the ocean off the coast of California. Source: Thetan (Wikipedia)

I guess then, if a Scientologist runs for POTUS in 2016, if he were to pursue a space program that commenced finding that alleged "landing station" on the planet Venus, it supposedly wouldn't have ANY relevance to a POTUS role because that's "religion" -- and we keep "religion" separate from Venus landing stations and Kolobian launching pads, eh?

Seems to me that, per the Mormon myth narrative, when when an earthling is becoming "encapsuled" they leave from a "launching station" on the planet Kolob, where the Mormon spirit is implanted inside a human body, and once born with a Mormon family, the Mormon is told lies about its past life and its next life. The Mormon gods take the Mormon, "capsule" it in that body, and send it to Earth to be dumped at age 8 into the Mormon baptismal founts off of many international coasts.

12 posted on 07/18/2012 5:21:40 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: mom4melody; RoadTest; ejonesie22; All
If freedom of religion exists, it must exist for the Romney family as well.

Are you now suddenly claiming that Mormonism is to be teflon-proof re: ANY critiques?

You seem a wee bit inconsistent on this Mom4melody. I mean, there's been literally THOUSANDS of religious crits of Obama -- many right on the $. His ties to Rev. Jeremiah Wright. What Wright taught and preached on.

Obama catering to Islam.

Some FREEPERs have even claimed Obama IS a Muslim.

Strange...somehow...that on ALL of those threads these past 5 years...I don't recall seeing a comment from you saying: If freedom of religion exists, it must exist for the Obama family as well.

Why not?

Is it because you're a religious hypocrite who is two-faced on this? Religious freedom for thee (you & Romney), but not for the Obama family?

Does your "freedom of religion" idea here -- re: interpreting that it apparently shouldn't be critiqued -- extend to jihadist Islam? Are we not to critique it under your guise of "freedom of religion?"

Me? I say Obama and Romney can be critiqued re: religion? You? If you are consistent in applying that narrow personally-interpreted standard, apparently not!

13 posted on 07/18/2012 5:28:39 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
The Friendly Beasts

Old English Christmas Carol

Jesus our brother, kind and good
Was humbly born in a stable rude
And the friendly beasts around Him stood
Jesus our brother, kind and good.

"I," said the donkey, shaggy and brown,
"I carried His mother up hill and down;
I carried her safely to Bethlehem town."
"I," said the donkey, shaggy and brown.

"I," said the cow, all white and red
"I gave Him my manger for a bed;
I gave Him my hay to pillow His head."
"I," said the cow, all white and red.

"I," said the sheep with curly horn,
"I gave Him my wool for His blanket warm;
He wore my coat on Christmas morn."
"I," said the sheep with curly horn.

"I," said the dove from the rafters high,
"Cooed Him to sleep that He should not cry;
We cooed Him to sleep, my mate and I."
"I," said the dove from the rafters high.

"I," said the camel, yellow and black,
"Over the desert, upon my back,
I brought Him a gift in the Wise Men's pack."
"I," said the camel, yellow and black.

Thus every beast by some good spell
In the stable dark was glad to tell
Of the gift he gave Emmanuel,
The gift he gave Emmanuel.

14 posted on 07/18/2012 5:34:31 AM PDT by T. P. Pole
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dalebert
At least Mitt has a religion..

Thank you Oprah.

15 posted on 07/18/2012 5:34:43 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: dalebert
At least Mitt has a religion..

Maybe OTHERS might want to try it!

Here's where to start:

Here is MORMONism's own creed:
 
 

Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
 
 

  1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
  2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
  3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
  6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
  7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
  8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
  9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
  10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
  11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
  12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
  13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith


 

16 posted on 07/18/2012 5:36:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

That’s why I pray every day for Romney’s salvation! But he’s still a million times more qualified to lead this country than BHO is. Let’s not mix up what is Caesar’s and what is God’s!


17 posted on 07/18/2012 5:37:21 AM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dalebert
At least Mitt has a religion..

Maybe OTHERS might want to try it!

Ya dig a little deeper and say, WOW! Who WOULDn't want to be a MORMON after learning THIS!!!

The Doctrine and Covenants

Section 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501–7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

 


 

 16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

 17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.

 18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

 19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

 21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

 22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

 23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.

 24This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

 25aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.


18 posted on 07/18/2012 5:37:25 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: dalebert
At least Mitt has a religion..

Maybe OTHERS might want to try it!

And to get to the REALLY good stuff in MORMONism; all you have to do is to be able to answer these few questions correctly:

 

Temple Recommend Questions



1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

19 posted on 07/18/2012 5:39:27 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
nowhere do the scriptures use this expression in reference to Jesus.

Wrong, Colo. Sorry, this is one area where the Mormons got it at least partly right.

Romans 8:29 says that Jesus is "firstborn among many brethren". The "many brethren" is us, the Church, therefore Jesus is indeed precisely our elder brother. We are Sons of God as well, by adoption through grace, while he is *the* Son of God by nature. (cf 1 Jn 3) Obviously if he is the "firstborn," and we are the "many brethren," then he is our eldest brother.

That's orthodox (and Orthodox) Christianity.

20 posted on 07/18/2012 5:41:32 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RoadTest; Not gonna take it anymore; mom4melody; All
Let’s put the criminal charlatan playing President in the limelight, shall we?

Well, I'll affirm your motion...
I'm sure the site host would agree...
The only question then becomes YOU!!!?

It took only nano seconds to see that THE very last time you posted a new FR thread on Obama was almost 1,000 days ago -- Nov. 15, 2009:

Obama Condemned For Indifference To China Church Persecution

IF you truly wanted to keep Obama in the limelight -- then instead of charging in here and preaching it to me -- why don't your own fingers on your keyboard obey your charge?

Why are you hypocritically accusing me of somehow failing to keep the thread highlight on Obama, when your keyboard fingers have been pretty silent -- at least on thread production -- for almost 1,000 days now!

Seems to me like you've got a great basis for a vanity thread post there. (Why don't do you just post it ... vs. pointing fingers at me???)

21 posted on 07/18/2012 5:41:59 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

I am no Mormon. I have a different faith. And that is what it is: FAITH. Religion, by its very nature, is a faith-based thing. Unless a religion calls for denial or destruction of our Constitution and laws or a candidate says that he will govern based solely upon his religious beleifs, I come down on the side of religious freedom.

Of course I would prefer to have a candidate who believes exactly as I do in all matters: religion, politics, my favorite teams, etc. Who doesn’t? But my vote will go to the candidate who most closely conforms to my positions, especially as to domestic and foreign policy.


22 posted on 07/18/2012 5:51:25 AM PDT by NCLaw441
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: RoadTest
Let’s put the criminal charlatan playing President in the limelight, shall we?

Ok; but we are ALSO going to...

... put heretical MORMONism playing CHRISTIAN in the SPOTlight, too!

23 posted on 07/18/2012 5:54:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Bidimus1
I have no great disagreement with the church of j.smith and that of mohammad...

CHRISTianity does!


 
 
Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
 
 
Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
 
 
1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
 
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.
 
 
Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
 
 
1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.
 
 
1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
 
 
2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
 
 
 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.
 
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
 
 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
 
 
Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
 
 
Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
 
 
Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
 
 
 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.
 
 
 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 
 
2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.



24 posted on 07/18/2012 5:56:19 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: mom4melody
If freedom of religion exists, it must exist for the Romney family as well.

It does; as well as FREEDOM of Speech.

That's why the world is going to learn about MORMONism: the Illegal Alien of the 'christian' world.

25 posted on 07/18/2012 5:58:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Campion; All
#1 The Mormon author of the study -- and BYU -- is the source of the following (not me): "...nowhere do the scriptures use this expression in reference to Jesus."

This was a quote. Additionally, that same author (Volluz) capsulized in his study toward the END of his piece: "The concept that Jesus is the elder brother of the human family is not expressly set forth in the standard works..."

(The "standard works" of Mormonism includes the Bible)

#2 The official Lds magazine Ensign included this graph: On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers….But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)
Secondary source: Is Jesus Christ the Spirit Brother of Satan?

Please note re: the bold-face references that the Lds church had an opportunity to pick which "firstborn" passages it would reference in trying to back this belief up...it chose Col. 1:15 & a D&C reference...but not Romans 8:29.

#3 So what's the reason that Mormons (BYU/Lds Church via Ensign; Corbin Volluz) all avoided tying in Romans 8 to "Elder Brother?"

Simply put..."adoption" doesn't fit into the Mormon scheme of firsthand spirit child-bearing. Note that I indeed covered the "adoption" angle in the second post (see #5...because indeed the context for Romans 8 is adoption...) Please see the rest of the second post re: the way Mormons use "Elder Brother" to dilute the uniqueness of Christ.

26 posted on 07/18/2012 5:59:13 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Obama catering to Islam.

MORMONism FACTS...


“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, look to Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib, whom they consider Divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam. (Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.




27 posted on 07/18/2012 5:59:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: NCLaw441; mom4melody; All
Religion, by its very nature, is a faith-based thing. Unless a religion calls for denial or destruction of our Constitution and laws or a candidate says that he will govern based solely upon his religious beleifs, I come down on the side of religious freedom.

Between your post & the one by mom4melody (see my response post #13), who's calling for any curtailment of religious freedom?

The same Qs I asked of mom4melody in post #13, apply to you...Are you consistent? Or hypocritical?

28 posted on 07/18/2012 6:02:43 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Former Fetus
Let’s not mix up what is Caesar’s and what is God’s!

Let’s not mix up what is GOD’s eternal TRUTH and what some conman from the 1830's claimed!

Let's not deny GOD and vote for a man who is either a DECEIVED Mormon or a DECEIVING one.

One whose very life is a witness to FALSEHOOD and DECEPTION.

29 posted on 07/18/2012 6:03:14 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Campion
Obviously if he is the "firstborn," and we are the "many brethren," then he is our eldest brother.

Sorry; but your logic is wrong.

When I was in the service, I was an American AMONG many brethen: the Thai citizens of Southeast Asia.


Simple parsing.

30 posted on 07/18/2012 6:07:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: NCLaw441
...I come down on the side of religious freedom.

So; who don't?


But my vote will go to the candidate who most closely conforms to my positions, especially as to domestic and foreign policy.

And mine (or lack of it) will 'go' to the one who does NOT believe in some damnable heresy that NO CHRISTIAN religion accepts as authentic.

31 posted on 07/18/2012 6:09:53 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Elsie
2 John 1:10
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

I will add:

Or make him your LEADER!!!

32 posted on 07/18/2012 6:11:22 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: mom4melody

The Lord can use leaders who don’t know him for good as well. He used the ruler of Persia to free the Israelites from Babalyonian captivity.


33 posted on 07/18/2012 6:21:19 AM PDT by chargers fan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

And if your ancestor was a slave owner...does that make you a slave owner? I’m missing the point of tying this belief to an ancestor of Mitt Romney.


34 posted on 07/18/2012 6:31:16 AM PDT by GLDNGUN
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

The same Qs I asked of mom4melody in post #13, apply to you...Are you consistent? Or hypocritical?
***

I don’t object to Obama on religious grounds (his religion is hard to identify), I am being consistent.


35 posted on 07/18/2012 6:35:03 AM PDT by NCLaw441
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To re emphasize:

No...Jesus is NOT the elder brother of all people on earth...per john 8 that is unorthodox.
Yes thru adoption we become his children, but that is NOT the way Mormons exegete this...otherwise they would quote rom 8 29 vs avoiding it...
What I mean by lds "reducing" Jesus to "elder brother" status can be found in two parallel illustrations...
* people call Jesus a good teacher...orthodox wise jesus was/is rabboni...a master teacher...but Jesus transcends being only a good teacher...somebody can state a technically true attribute and yet still be reductionistic...
* likewise a man approached Jesus in the gospels with the greeting "good teacher"...Jesus responded "why do you call me good?" Jesus didn't question His own goodness there...what the man said was technically true...yet Jesus chose to address the faulty worldview presumption baggage

36 posted on 07/18/2012 6:35:54 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

note* I did place a edit i mis-edited a line and corrected in about 30 seconds.

the I do have great disagreement with...


37 posted on 07/18/2012 6:38:16 AM PDT by Bidimus1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: GLDNGUN
If your ancestor was a slave owner...does that make you a slave owner?"

Obviously not. Yet I myself am a descendent of a Mormon polygamist...given the false seeds that have been poured into the world by my family's name, am I 100% off the hook re pouring some true seeds into the world...in part as a counterbalance?...If that is true of my family's Mormonism, why not Mitt's family Mormonism?

As for tying this in to his ancestry...mitt has said he will not depart from the faith of his fathers...he said that december of 07

38 posted on 07/18/2012 6:47:59 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator,

that everything was created THROUGH Him, BY Him and FOR Him.

They deny Jesus created the angels and the universe out of nothing.

39 posted on 07/18/2012 6:57:28 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NCLaw441
I don't object to Obama on religious grounds...I am being consistent

thanx for responding...you missed my point...perhaps I wasn't clear enough...my comment wasn't aimed at your commentary...or lack of it...aimed directly at obama...it was rather, "where have you been in failing to defend obama and his religious beliefs when they have come under fire by freepers?" You came in here using a "religious freedom" defense of romney...have you consistlently offered the same "religious freedom" defense on behalf of obama? IF NOT, WHY NOT?

40 posted on 07/18/2012 6:58:07 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created BY Him.

The lds-org is a thief of the Name and the Truth of Jesus Christ.

41 posted on 07/18/2012 7:00:22 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: chargers fan; mom4melody

Did you know this “Lord can use...leaders who don’t know him” argument could be used by Christians to defend voting for Obama...do you really want vto go there?


42 posted on 07/18/2012 7:02:47 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: T. P. Pole

Having taken human form to offer us salvation, Jesus became our brother in the sense of the “brotherhood of man”. All men are our brothers in that sense, even brother Obama. You can choose your friends, but you can’t choose your relatives!


43 posted on 07/18/2012 7:03:56 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed &water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW & FOREVER!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: RoadTest; Colofornian

Mitt Rmoney’s political dishonesty is infamous.

His lds contacts serve to support, excuse and promote that dishonesty.

At this point, if the election were held today, I would vote for none of the above ... or I’d look for a 3rd party conservative.

Colofornian is reminding us on a daily basis that, for many people, it would violate our consciences to vote for Rmoney.


44 posted on 07/18/2012 7:04:11 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Thank you for your regular posts.

Acts 24:16

45 posted on 07/18/2012 7:07:39 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: T. P. Pole
Re old english carol...

wanna explain since you are our current lone lds rep in this thread why volluz, why byu peers who reviewed volluz' work, and why ensign mag [see post to campion with "secondary source" link] all point to a lack of standard works' undergirding for this concept?

also, care to explain "children of the devil" phrase by Jesus in John 8 if Jesus was really the brother of all? THIS is where lds are lacking in trying to explain passages like John 1:12 and 13 and adoption passages in romans 8 and also ephesians...even book os mosiah in bom militates vs lds concepts here

46 posted on 07/18/2012 7:13:07 AM PDT by Colofornian (Saying Mitt would keep past political promises is like prophesying that Gumby won't bend anymore)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Thanks for the clarification. I don’t support Obama, so I don’t intend to defend him. I do, reluctantly, support Romney, so I do defend him. I will let others who do support Obama come to his defense. I am sure you read any number of posts on this site, and comments that follow. I disagree with many things that are said here, but only occasionally do I post replies. That doesn’t mean that I agree with those posts.

I suspect, but can’t prove, that if Obama were conservative, or if Romney were more conservative (I know, many say that he is not conservative at all.) that the religious commentary would be greatly, if not completely, eliminated. After all, Mormonism existed long before Romney became a candidate.


47 posted on 07/18/2012 7:18:56 AM PDT by NCLaw441
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: dalebert

mormonISM has been talked about on FR for nearly a decade, why should this discussion be stopped because a candidate is a practitioner of mormonISM.
This is the Religion Forum after all.


48 posted on 07/18/2012 7:34:19 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: RoadTest

Of course put BHO and all you presented in the limelight - I agree.
You might want to start a new thread say in Chat or general information, this is the Religion Forum and the thread is about mormonIMS.


49 posted on 07/18/2012 7:36:47 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-182 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson