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“Save Kolob”: Church News Says Book of Abraham “Not Central to the Restored Gospel”
Mormonmatters.org ^ | Aug. 31, 2009 | Andrew

Posted on 07/16/2012 5:38:35 AM PDT by Colofornian

High Priests Groups world-wide are still reeling at the Church News’ announcement that questions surrounding the accuracy and authenticity of the Book of Abraham are not as important as critics suggest because the book “is not central to the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ” despite its inclusion in the canonized LDS Standard Works. (Read Church News article here.)

“I’m stunned,” said LaVerl Jensen, High Priest Group leader for the Spanish Fork 87th ward. “If the Book of Abraham isn’t all that important, why did God go to all that effort to make sure the Egyptian papyri containing Abraham’s writings, miraculously preserved for millenia, made it all the way across the ocean and into the Prophet Joseph’s hands so he could translate them through the gift and power of God for our day?”

More progressive-minded Mormons greeted the news enthusiastically, because in establishing that the Book of Abraham falls outside what is “central” to the restored Gospel, the Church News listed six narrow essentials presented by BYU Professor John Gee:

God exists; Jesus Christ is His Son; God talked and still talks with men through the power of the Holy Ghost; Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of the world; the Atonement is available to those who trust Jesus, turn from sin, make and keep sacred covenants, and follow the course throughout their lives; and the Book of Mormon is true, an authentic record of God’s interactions with actual ancient people.

“Now where is the Book of Abraham in this?” Dr. Gee concluded. “It isn’t. The Book of Abraham is not central to the restored gospel of Christ.”

“I’m ecstatic about what this means,” said Rulon Jeffries, a longtime subscriber to Sunstone and Dialogue. “For years I’ve been given grief by my LDS friends and family for having ‘unorthodox” beliefs about a whole range of issues. But now I can cite this article as proof that orthodoxy in the Church has been narrowed to these six ‘central’ points.”

* * * * *

Folks, for those who haven’t been able to figure out what I had thought would be obvious, the Church News article referenced above is real, but the responses are a spoof in the style of The Onion or some other satirical news source. I had hoped to raise, in a humorous way, a number of interesting issues that I think are raised by this Church News article:

1. The Book of Abraham is the key support for the LDS doctrine of the pre-existence, and the pre-existence is treated as a foundational doctrine in official Church curriculum. Indeed, the pre-existence has been and is often the starting-point when we introduce our Restored Gospel to those investigating or newly converted to our faith. It is the “first estate” of our existence as described in our familiar version of the “Plan of Salvation.” For example, in our Gospel Principles manual, elements of the pre-existence are covered in all of the first six lessons. And unsurprisingly, the Book of Abraham is cited in all six of the first six lessons of the GP manual. If the Book of Abraham is “not central” to the Restored Gospel, one wonders why its contents are found in the first six lessons of the official Church manual we use to teach investigators and converts the Restored Gospel.

2. It is interesting that the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon made it into Dr. Gee’s list of six “central” points, but that the historical authenticity of the Book of Abraham did not, and I personally wonder what the justification is for treating them differently. Both were deemed important enough by God to go to the trouble of revealing to Joseph Smith. And both books were represented by Joseph Smith to be genuine and accurate translations of ancient records accomplished by the gift and power of God.

3. Dr. Gee’s list of six “central” points is also interesting for the many core LDS beliefs that it does not include. For example, it does not even include a belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, nor does it even mention a belief in the Bible.

4. In determining the Book of Abraham is “not central,” Dr. Gee seems to overlook the close relationship between the Book of Abraham and the temple. So there is an interesting paradox in his list of six “central” points of doctrine: while he includes making and keeping covenants (and presumably temple covenants are included) on the list of six “central” doctrines, by saying the Book of Abraham is “not central to the restored gospel” it seems he downplays the significance of the book of scripture that creates the doctrinal foundation for many aspects of those temple ordinances.

5. Although we have a rich and well-established culture of belief that “the mantle is far, far greater than the intellect,” that “God’s foolishness is wiser than the wisdom of men,” and that we need to rely on the “rock of revelation” rather than leaning on the “arm of the flesh,” it seems that increasingly the statements of past prophets, seers, and revelators are being disregarded by LDS scholars. For example, despite statements by Joseph Smith and others indicating that the Lamanites and Nephites ranged all over the North American continent, LDS scholars are now telling us that all the BOM action was confined to a very small area in southern Mexico and Guatemala. This shift in LDS scholarly consensus, as well as the DNA controversy, preceded the Church’s recent decision to revise the official Introduction to the Book of Mormon (authored by an Apostle who was sustained as a prophet, seer, and revelator) to eliminate the claim that the Lamanites were the “principal” ancestors of the American Indian. When today’s LDS scholars are unable to develop satisfactory answers to challenges posed by critics, it seems the response is, increasingly, to downgrade the earlier revelation-based claims as being “not central”, rather than continuing in the faith that those revelations will ultimately be vindicated by scholarship. I’m not arguing over whether this is right or wrong; I’m just observing that it’s happening.

6. This recent Church News article represents an example of how this displacement of past revelation by modern scholarship is gradually occurring: by quoting LDS scholars in an official church publication like Church News or Ensign magazine. The Church News does not print everything that is said at every scholarly conference, so the fact that Dr. Gee’s statements were published in the Church News, rather than just being covered in the FAIR newsletter, suggests to Church members reading the Church News that Dr. Gee’s statements are endorsed by the Church. This process of allowing modern LDS scholarship to displace past revelation with the quasi-sanction of publishing LDS scholars’ statements in an official Church newspaper or magazine seems to ignore the long-established doctrine that the revelations of past prophets, seers, and revelators can be superseded only by the current President of the Church (but that doctrine didn’t make the list of six “central” points either).

7. Lastly, one wonders, will this evaluation of the Book of Abraham as being “not central” result in it being eventually removed from our Standard Works? Dr. Hugh Nibley once said that without the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, we would be “just another Church.” By stating the Book of Abraham is “not central to the restored gospel,” have Dr. Gee and Church News brought us one step closer to becoming just that?

* Thanks to Wade Nelson for pointing this Church News article out to me.


TOPICS: History; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: bookofabraham; inman; kolob; lds; mormonism
Note: This is a Mormon who wrote this.

From the blog: 1. The Book of Abraham is the key support for the LDS doctrine of the pre-existence, and the pre-existence is treated as a foundational doctrine in official Church curriculum. Indeed, the pre-existence has been and is often the starting-point when we introduce our Restored Gospel to those investigating or newly converted to our faith. It is the “first estate” of our existence as described in our familiar version of the “Plan of Salvation.” For example, in our Gospel Principles manual, elements of the pre-existence are covered in all of the first six lessons. And unsurprisingly, the Book of Abraham is cited in all six of the first six lessons of the GP manual. If the Book of Abraham is “not central” to the Restored Gospel, one wonders why its contents are found in the first six lessons of the official Church manual we use to teach investigators and converts the Restored Gospel.

Good question, Andrew...if the so-called "Book of Abraham" (an Egyptian funeral document that Joseph Smith obtained for what would be the equivalent of $60,000 in today's $ value) isn't central to the alleged "restored" gospel of Mormonism, then there goes the centrality of the "pre-existence" of Mormons...who supposedly were supplied to Planet Earth by way of a planet near the star, Kolob.

************

From the blog: Dr. Gee’s list of six “central” points is also interesting for the many core LDS beliefs that it does not include. For example, it does not even include a belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, nor does it even mention a belief in the Bible.

Boy, I can understand "belief in the Bible" not being a basic Mormon central belief (that's pretty obvious from their doctrine alone!), but the belief that Joseph Smith is a prophet God not included as a central tenet of Mormonism??? This would just NOT sit well with THE Lds general authorities of yesteryear!

Whereas Jesus’ drew black-and-white, line-in-the sand words in John 14:6 ("I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me")...The past Lds general authorities drew the line at places like Joseph Smith and the Lds Church!

Brigham Young:

* "...EVERY spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist..." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 435)
* "Whosoever... does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist...," (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 176)
* "He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312)

For other similar quotes, see section two of this article: If Mormonism is 'anti-Christian,' then how can it be considered 'Christian?'

Btw, does that sound very “civil” to you – for Mormon “prophets” to label us all as “of Antichrist”???

From this Mormon curtain article -- Smith wasn't a mere afterthought to Brigham Young's right-hand man...but a "god"!!! "You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a God, and also upon Brigham Young, our Governor” (Heber C. Kimball of the Lds First Presidency, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, p. 88)

1 posted on 07/16/2012 5:38:51 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Corrections:

Not Restored but Re-Invented

Dropping BoA at least in public is probably due to it being indefensable (even more so than the others works attributed to J.Smith)

Seems Boa may be sliding toward Kinderhook plates status.


2 posted on 07/16/2012 5:56:06 AM PDT by Bidimus1
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To: All

“I’m stunned,” said LaVerl Jensen, High Priest Group leader for the Spanish Fork 87th ward. “If the Book of Abraham isn’t all that important, why did God go to all that effort to make sure the Egyptian papyri containing Abraham’s writings, miraculously preserved for millenia, made it all the way across the ocean and into the Prophet Joseph’s hands so he could translate them through the gift and power of God for our day?”

Uhhh, that’s because Joseph Smith was little more than a carnival barker, selling snake oil. He has fooled many. He no more “translated” this Anubis and Osiris document than he did The Kinderhook Plates.


3 posted on 07/16/2012 6:01:16 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Colofornian

The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created THROUGH Him, BY Him and FOR Him.

They deny that Jesus created even the angels out of nothing.

They do NOT teach the truth about Jesus.

4 posted on 07/16/2012 6:17:08 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Colofornian
Church News Says Book of Abraham “Not Central to the Restored Gospel”

Captain Obvious is BACK!

5 posted on 07/16/2012 6:17:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
Church News Says Book of Abraham “Not Central to the Restored FULLNESS of the Gospel”; either!!




6 posted on 07/16/2012 6:19:48 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: F15Eagle
“If the Book of Abraham isn’t all that important, why did God go to all that effort to make sure the Egyptian papyri containing Abraham’s writings, miraculously preserved for millenia, made it all the way across the ocean and into the Prophet Joseph’s hands so he could translate them through the gift and power of God for our day?”
7 posted on 07/16/2012 6:20:27 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: F15Eagle
LIKEWISE:

“If the Joseph Smith translation isn’t SCRIPTURE, why did God go to all that effort to make sure the Reformed Egyptian TRANSLATOR; the Prophet Joseph Smith; the COMMAND to RE-translate the KJV of the BIBLE through the gift and power of God for our days?”

8 posted on 07/16/2012 6:23:53 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: F15Eagle
Just HOW did JS translate?



"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."
---Joseph Knight's journal.


"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.
(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),
"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,
as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,
and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."


"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"
reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881
in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:
 
 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,
Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12
June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)


Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:
 
"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"
("A New Witness for Christ in America,"
Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)


"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."
---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.




9 posted on 07/16/2012 6:24:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: All
I have to say that one of the most common FREEPER arguments I have heard over these past five years -- in response to the objections the Flying Inmans have raised about Mormonism -- is that Jihadist terrorism is a greater threat.

So, how have we responded to that comment?

#1 Some of us can multi-task (thank God). Otherwise, to hear some tell it, jihad terrorism and the Muslim threat would be the ONLY think we'd have the time, resources, and energy to oppose.

#2 Only a fool thinks the "brush fire" here on earth is the three-alarm, city-wide meltdown that hell represents.

Simply put, we take our cultural cue from a certain "Lord" named Jesus Christ...

Jesus said:

"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:4-5)

So does Jesus say, "fear the Marxists/communists?" (No)
Does Jesus say "fear the enemies of our freedom loving republic within our borders?" (No)
Instead, does He say to exercise fear of the One who has authority to cast somebody into hell? (Yes)
So, indeed, our "fear" is on behalf of those who are placing their eternal spiritual lives at risk.

#3 Some have suggested that we "unite" behind an anti-Marxist/socialist cause. (And thereby simply ignore the ISM of MormonISM)

I could probably guess that the folks who the apostle Paul warned the church @ Ephesus about had the bulk in common with the sheep there. Both groups were "religious." So, did Paul play the "allies"-game-don't-divide-us others play? (No)

As Paul was leaving the church of Ephesus, he warned them with this high-priority alert:

"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)

Paul's cultural priority? (Defend against the false disciples who will proselytize the flock and draw away men unto themselves!)

You see, if you did something tearfully night and day for three years, do you think it's rather important? So what? We're just to conclude, "Oh, the man who contributed a good chunk to the New Testament -- what does he know about cultural priorities?"

Bottom line: I'll take Paul's and Jesus' already-revealed priorities to others' guesswork patchwork.

11 posted on 07/16/2012 6:49:40 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Elsie

They’re finally admitting that Joseph Smith faked the “Book of Abraham translation” because they cannot get away with this charade any longer. The Eqyptologists confirmed it quite awhile ago. And there is no such thing as “Reformed Egyptian”; another false claim.

It’s hard for people to admit they have been fooled by the con game of Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Brigham Young, et al. They’ve been surrounded by friends who were also fooled by these carnival barkers.

If some of our former FReepers are out there reading this like Saundra, Paragon Defender, Riplanicum and restornu, please stop being taken in by Bruce McConkie and the rest and just stick with the Holy Bible. Joseph Smith is fooling you with his nonsense.


12 posted on 07/16/2012 7:07:13 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Colofornian

Pretty soon nothing Joseph Smith said or did will be used, as it is all being ‘discounted’, well publicly anyway.


13 posted on 07/16/2012 8:04:11 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: F15Eagle

For those of us outside the church, yes, they’re “walking it back” from JS. But doing it so slyly in the process.

Gradually diminishing its importance/significance vs. admitting that JS faked it. If they admit he faked the translation, then he’s a false prophet because he claimed he was able to do so via the power of their god.

If they persist in maintaining its veracity, then they show themselves to be obstinate in the face of irrefutable proof that it’s a funerary text and “reformed Egyptian” is fantasy.

Clever tactic to keep the TBM’s in line by “revealing” that the BoA isn’t all that relevant; “Focus on the BoM, we can keep stonewalling on that one for much longer.”

This announcement is further proof that the SLC hierarchy is not interested in truth or the spiritual well being of its members, just $5B malls.

Spit.


14 posted on 07/16/2012 8:26:00 AM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political party's in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet

Again, you brought mormons/Romney into this thread and never mentioned the exposure of mormonISM, this is the Religion Forum and the discussion is about a mormonISM book.
If you are are interested in talking about the religion of islam, why not start your own thread.


15 posted on 07/16/2012 8:28:44 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Colofornian

We’ve been down this road with similar folks before.

Nothing new under the sun, same old, tired vocabulary.

Tiresome, vulgar, petulant and ignorant.

Oh well....


16 posted on 07/16/2012 8:29:14 AM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political party's in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: SZonian

Yes I worked at a company that had planned on getting Mormon stuff out. I surmised it was about the $$$$$ and not about the Gospel.


17 posted on 07/16/2012 8:31:14 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet

I’m worried about my eternal salvation right now. Unlike others who are pre-occupied by the temporal and insist on trying to drag us into their mud wallow.

So keep on tilting at windmills, slandering and maligning all in the name of “saving our country”. I’m sure many like minded folks here on FR will be wondering after Nov why certain folks aren’t real receptive to others here any longer after the slash and burn tactics that have been enjoined by the ABO’s.

Keep focusing on the temporal, I’ll keep my focus on the eternal.

Good luck on your quest!


18 posted on 07/16/2012 8:35:34 AM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political party's in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: F15Eagle
Joseph Smith is fooling you with his nonsense.

And Modern Day MORMONism is LYING to you about it.

Mitt is ONE of THEM!

20 posted on 07/16/2012 9:07:11 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: svcw
Pretty soon nothing Joseph Smith said or did will be used, as it is all being ‘discounted’, well publicly anyway.


"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

21 posted on 07/16/2012 9:08:26 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet
PREMISE: Mormons and Mormonism is bad, dangerous and a threat

ARGUMENT: Mitt is a Mormon

CONCLUSION: Mitt is thus "dangerous" and a "threat" and no one should vote for him.

 

PREMISE: CHRISTians and CHRISTianity is bad, dangerous and a threat

ARGUMENT: Most AMERICANs are CHRISTian.

CONCLUSION: Therefore; the vast majority are CHRISTian and need an enlightened MORMON to lead them.



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

22 posted on 07/16/2012 9:11:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a God, and also upon Brigham Young, our Governor” (Heber C. Kimball of the Lds First Presidency, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, p. 88)

Is there anything more dangerous, particularly in a political setting, than the notion that an individual can himself be a God?

Has Romney ever repudiated this crazy and dangerous notion?

23 posted on 07/16/2012 9:23:42 AM PDT by Tau Food (Tom Hoefling for President - 2012)
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: Conservative Vermont Vet; jimt

Have you 2 met?

If not, introduce yourselves to one another.

Maybe you could work out an agreement on which forums you’ll troll to post your “hate” comments on.

That way you won’t wear your “message” out.

The vocabulary is essentially the same, I’d hate to see it get lost in the commentary or watered down due to over saturation.

It is highly useful, informative and educational. Not like anything else posted./s


25 posted on 07/16/2012 11:50:39 AM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political party's in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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