Posted on 06/02/2012 8:54:01 AM PDT by Colofornian
They made that same argument when Kennedy was running for president, that the Pope would be giving him orders. Didn't happen.
And if Romney's religious beliefs do not conflict with his duty to serve in accord with the Constitution, no problem. Same with any other politician.
We do not have a religious test for public office in this country. You may have, but that's you.
We do not have a religious test for public office in this country.
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No, anyone can run for office...
But nobody has to vote for them...
We are free under the Constitution to vote as we choose...
Its your wish that you get to tell me how to vote...
As someone who was a live when Kennedy was president, it wasn’t nearly the issue you are making it out to be.
However, Kennedy believed in ONE God.
Romney not only believes in many gods he thinks he will be one as well.
I have said this before, it might be well for you to know mormonism before you dismiss it so lightly.
Romney is in the highest level possible (inner circle) of the SLC lds, as is his family since the beginning of mormonism.
As a side note, there really is a big difference between a plumber and president of the USA.
And if Romney’s religious beliefs do not conflict with his duty to serve in accord with the Constitution, no problem
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Unfortunately Mormonism and the Constitution dont mix...
There is a conflict from the get go...
Mormonism “owns” the Founding Fathers...
all 56 were dead dunked into Mormonism as a reward for setting up America in accordance to the Mormon gods etc...
Mormonism is above the Constitution in Romney’s belief system...
and as a 15% temple Mormon he must choose his religion...
Who he is, his whole life and future is wrapped up in Mormonism not in America..
His allegience is to his “prophet” and not to the people of America, the “Gentiles” AKA “the whore of Babylon” ...
Charles you really must study Mormonism if you want to discuss what Romney believes...
Kennedy and Carter are apples and oranges to Romney...
Per this posted Rasmussen poll from 5.5 years ago (late 2006) [see Election 2008: 43% Would Never Vote for Mormon Candidate (Rasmussen Poll)]: The Rasmussen Reports survey found that 35% say that a candidate's faith and religious beliefs are very important in their voting decision. Another 27% say faith and religious beliefs are somewhat important. Ninety-two percent (92%) of Evangelical Christian voters consider a candidate's faith and beliefs important. On the partisan front, 78% of Republicans say that a candidate's faith is an important consideration, a view shared by 55% of Democrats. However, there is also a significant divide on this topic within the Democratic Party. Among minority Democrats, 71% consider faith and religious beliefs an important consideration for voting. Just 44% of white Democrats agree.
So…what % of the following groups found that a candidate’s faith and religious beliefs are an important consideration for voting?
(1) Americans: 62%
(2) Evangelical Christians: 92%
(3) Republicans: 78%
(4) Democrats: 55% [still a majority]
So, are you accusing, Charles, 62% of Americans and 92% of Evangelicals of having "religious tests?"
Or is it just possible that Evangelicals integrate their faith more within ALL areas of life, and Lutherans -- who straddle the Evangelical/mainline line -- tend to compartmentalize their faith more? [A false "secular vs. sacred" division]
I mean, it's no wonder that the average Lutheran doesn't see himself/herself as part of the priesthood of all believers and the ministry. (That's for the "professional clergy.")
All we ask Charles is that people to be a bit more astute as to these candidates' other-worldly worldviews...
Let's take your JFK example:
(a) JFK was a CINO (Catholic in Name Only) who had mini-orgies in the White House. Mitt Romney is NOT a MINO (Mormon in Name Only).
As the daughter of an Lds bishop said: Mitt…held…offices of…Missionary, Missionary Zone Leader, assistant to…Mission President…,…Bishop and Stake President…You cannot attain the “calling”…to serve as Mormon Bishop or Stake President unless you are a thoroughly entrenched and obedient Mormon… Source: Tricia Erickson: 'An indoctrinated Mormon should never be elected as President'
(b) Certainly, you have to concede the contrasts of what Romney has sworn an oath to -- vs. whatever Kennedy publicly confessed to?
Romney has sworn the "The Law of Consecration Oath." He did this in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple).
We already know what this oath consisted of: "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."]
For commentaries to even begin to make such a baseless outlandish conclusion, it would need to be proven that Kennedy took some similar oath to the Vatican. (You can't)
Besides, (a) above kicks in...Kennedy had a surface religious commitment; can't make the same conclusion about what "puppet" Romney would be -- in being beholden to the Mormon "prophet."
HUGE distinction 'tween a regional office and THE leader of the free world -- in terms of potential influence.
The SLC HQ wouldn't go all-out for a Congressmen or Gov elected -- because it's no huge "leap" of accomplishment.
The President on the other hand? (You bet)
Also, doesn't even matter what Romney would -- or wouldn't -- initiate on his own.
No Mormon is their "own man" when the Mormon "prophet" can manipulate him.
And for that, if you're going to continue to compare Salt Lake City to the Vatican, you'd have to come up with all kinds of quotes from the Vatican (since the U.S. came into being) to match what top Lds leaders have said below:
| Lds Leader | Chronological 'Prophet' or Fundamental # (or Other Title) | Overlap Areas: Could the President of the U.S. become a 'puppet' to an Lds 'Prophet?' (The Lds Prophets -- in their own words) | |
| John Taylor | Lds 'Prophet' #3 | “The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto…[so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours…and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862) | |
| Orson Hyde | President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875) | “What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53) | |
| Heber J. Grant | Lds 'Prophet' #7 | "Elder Marion G. Romney recalled the counsel of President Heber J. Grant: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray'" (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)." Cited in Official Lds publication Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 209 (1984) | |
| Harold B. Lee | Lds 'Prophet' #11 | ...President Harold B. Lee said: 'We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, '...as if from mine own mouth...(D&C 21:4-5)...You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself..." Cited in official Lds publication Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I, p. 27 (1989) | |
| Spencer Kimball | Lds 'Prophet' #12 | "President Spencer W. Kimball said: '...We deal with many things which are thought to be not so spiritual; but all things are spiritual with the Lord, and he expects us to listen, and to obey..." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1977, p. 8; or Ensign, May 1977, p. 7) Cited in official Lds publication Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983, p.12 (1983) | |
| What about Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's father? | Who was he in Lds hierarchy? (Title: 'President' - Top 3 of church as 2nd counselor to both #11 & #12 Lds 'prophets') | "Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said: 'Following the living prophets is something that must be done in all seasons and circumstances. We must be like President Marion G. Romney, who humbly said, '..I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, and political life' (Conference Report, April 1941, p. 123). There are, or will be moments when prophetic declarations collide with our pride or our seeming personal interests...Do I believe in the living prophet even when he speaks on matters affecting me and my specialty directly? Or do I stop sustaining the prophet when his words fall in my territory? if the latter, the prophet is without honor in our country! (Things As They Really Are, p. 73). Cited in official Lds publication, Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, pp. 275-276 (1984) | |
| Ezra Taft Benson | Lds 'Prophet' #13 | Benson speech given 2/26/80 @BYU. Summary: “…remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet…” (See excerpts re: 3 of 14 'fundamentals' below) Source: Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet | |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #5 | 5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (My Q: Ya hear that Mitt Romney?) | |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #9 | 9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. (My Q: Still listening, Mitt?) | |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #10 | 10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. (My Q: What say ye Mitt?) | |
| B.H. Roberts | LDS Historian and Seventy. Note: Roberts was an elected Democratic Congressman from Utah in 1898 -- but was NEVER seated by Congress because of grass roots uproar vs. Roberts, who took a THIRD simultaneous wife in the early 1890s. Grass roots America collected 7 MILLION signatures on 28 banners and presented them to Congress...in pre-mass media 1800s! | “[T]he kingdom of God... is to be a POLITICAL INSTITUTION THAT SHALL HOLD SWAY OVER ALL THE EARTH; TO WHICH ALL OTHER GOVERNMENTS WILL BE SUBORDINATE AND BY WHICH THEY WILL BE DOMINATED.” The Rise and Fall of Nauvoo, 1900, p. 180 | |
| Mitt Romney as POTUS??? | Aside from above prophetic impositions, why would Mitt not only honor what these 'prophets' have spoken, but what a future Lds 'prophet' may tell him to do? | The Law of Consecration Oath Mitt Romney has sworn in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple): "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."] |
We do not have a religious test for public office in this country. You may have, but that’s you.
____________________________________________
Charles my religion is Christianity...
I thought yours was also...
However you just posted a vanity which contains informmation about your personal religious journey that is other than Christian...
So you may have another understanding of what the religious test for public office is all about...
My God came to die on a Cross and shed His blood there to set me free from the penalty of sin and to give me the freedom to choose and make my own decisions...
Which includes who I am going to vote for in secular elections...
and what I am going to base my choices on...
If I wish to use a religious test as a litmus qualification, there is nothing in the Constitution to stop me...
and everything in the Christian Bible to back up my choice if I narrow that choice down to a born again, Godly, Bible beliving Christian man or woman...
"Other than Christian"??? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?
Yes I do, Charles...
God has no grandchildren...
You do not inherit Christianity from your parents...
You have to repent of your own sins to be saved, to be born again, to receive the Holy Spirit...
at SIX MONTHS OLD you would not have repented of your sins...
An awareness of sin and that you are a sinner is necessary in order to confess you are a sinner and to repent and ask God for forgiveness...
You also have to ask for the Holy Spirit...
He is a gentleman...
He wont force Himself upon a child...
Even the LORD Jesus Christ did not recieve the Holy Spirit until He was an adult...
Can young children have an awareness of sin and repent and be saved ???
Of course they can...
But at 6 months old ???
I wonder if you truly know or have experienced exactly the process for Christianity.. as an adult...
Most people who think Mormnonism is akin to Christianity and defend it as a valid belief are unschooled in Christianty and that is why they are confused and dont realize that Mormonism is a whole other religion...a false religion..
Chuck as a pastor you should be well aware there are temporal and eternal issues.
Who fixes your toilet is temporal.
Who fixes your soul is eternal.
As a Christian pastor you should know the dangers of a cult claiming today to be “just another Christian denomination”.
Anyone who is elected to the leader of the free world will elevate that cult, it is a given.
What I am having trouble with is why you find this acceptable.
As a Christian pastor you should know the dangers of mormonism, why do you not know, that in and of itself is troubling.
Romney is a liberal. Romney is a mormon. Romney is ingrained in mormonism since its foundation. Romney does nothing that is contrary to his oath position in mormonism.
How as a Christian pastor do you not see and know that?
Where Chuck is your discernment?
Melchizedek Priesthood
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Willard is a high priest, a so called “Melchizedek priest” in the Mormon religion...
equal to the LORD Jesus Christ of the Christian Bible...
Willard has no quarms about stealing an office that only the LORD Jesus Christ has or is entitled to ...
Most people who think Mormnonism is akin to Christianity and defend it as a valid belief are unschooled in Christianty. . . .
Well, that would not be me. I have said throughout that Mormonism is heretical, a false religion, etc.
After another comment or so, I'm going to have to put this thread to bed.
First of all, I do not go by "Chuck." It's "Charles" or "Charlie" or "Pastor Henrickson," depending on the context.
you should be well aware there are temporal and eternal issues. Who fixes your toilet is temporal. Who fixes your soul is eternal.
Oh, I am very aware. In fact, I just taught a week-long course at a pastors' conference on "The Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms: The Proper Distinction of Church and State."
A government official holds a temporal office. A minister of the gospel holds a spiritual office. Each has their place. One does not need to be a Christian to do a good job in a temporal office. One should hold the Christian faith firmly in order to do a good job as a Christian minister.
As a Christian pastor you should know the dangers of mormonism, why do you not know, that in and of itself is troubling.
You seem not to have read what I have written, since I have said repeatedly that Mormonism is a false religion. I called it "a pile of crap." It will lead people to hell.
That does not mean that Mormons cannot be good neighbors, lead upright lives, serve well in public offices, etc. They can and they do.
If you oppose Romney for his political views, fine. I myself don't trust him to be a thoroughgoing conservative. I'm hoping he will govern fairly conservatively, and I'm sure he will be miles better than Obama. But that's a political judgment, not a religious one.
I would like one of you folks to show me how being a Mormon would inherently conflict with carrying out the duties of the President. For instance, if Mormonism were a pacifist religion, a Mormon President could not carry out the duty of being Commander-in-Chief. But Mormons are not pacifist, as far as I know. Can you give a specific example like that?
Also, if a Mormon was running for office who held strong conservative political views and values, was competent, and did not use political office to advance false Mormon doctrines, and he was locked in a tight race with a non-Mormon who was an extreme liberal and was a disaster in office, are you telling me that you would not vote for the conservative Mormon simply because he was a Mormon??? That in and of itself would be troubling.
Now I must go to bed, and I will not have much time for FR for the next three or four days.
Charlie if you find an elected mormon official at the federal level who is a conservative, let me know.
mormonism is and of itself is not conservative.
Romney is not just a run of the mill mormon, his family has been intrenched in the mormonism structure, now SLC lds, since the beginning.
Romney being elected president will in the eternal, elevate the cult.
You have stated that mormonism will lead people to hell, then why would you want a person to be president who will in fact elevate that path to perceived normalcy?
Golly!
Where to start?
ONLY 40%???
In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.
1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.
I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.
Ezra Taft Benson
(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University) http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
The "B" the the MORMONs need to worry about is BRIGHAM - not BAPTISTS!!
Lutheran pastor?
At least, in the 3 men you listed, TWO were Christian.
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