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More Than Christian? [Lds wrestle with definitions, mainstreaming & becoming 'another' denomination]
Times and Seasons.org ^ | May 31, 2012 | Dave Banack

Posted on 06/02/2012 8:54:01 AM PDT by Colofornian

Two recent essays provide a new perspective on the never-ending discussion centered around the question, “Are Mormons Christian?” Mormons claim to be Christian, while at the same time denying divine authority and full legitimacy to all other Christian denominations. Consider the specific topic of rebaptism. Previously baptized Christians who join the LDS Church are required to be rebaptized by an LDS priesthood holder, which seems quite natural to Mormons. Baptized Mormons who later choose to join another Christian denomination are generally required to be rebaptized by that denomination because, in their eyes, Mormon baptism doesn’t count, which rather incongruously strikes most Mormons as wrong. We seem to think everyone else should accept our baptism as valid while we are free to reject anyone else’s baptism as invalid. Obviously, we haven’t adequately thought through this question of Christian identity and Mormon identity.

The first essay is “Romney is Mormons’ Path to the Christian Mainstream” by Noah Feldman, a Harvard law prof. Do we want to be part of the Christian mainstream? Yes, in the sense that we want to claim the title “Christian” and be part of the club. No, in the sense that we don’t want to surrender our claim to have the sole authority to perform valid Christian ordinances such as baptism and marriage. [We recognize marriages performed in other denominations as valid civil marriages in legal terms, but not as being valid in the eyes of God in the next life unless there is a later sealing performed in an LDS temple by that married couple if they convert to the LDS Church or unless, after death, such a sealing is performed by proxy in an LDS temple.] So again, we want it both ways: we want to be recognized as Christian by other Christians but, at the same time, we don’t want to grant reciprocal recognition to other denominations. We want to be Christian but also better than Christian, or at least more than Christian.

The first point that Feldman makes is that the Romney candidacy is forcing religious normalization regardless of the sectarian views of Christians:

[A]s a Mormon, Romney is a participant — indeed, he is the most important participant — in the long-term project of convincing mainstream American Protestants that Mormonism is a normal denomination like all the others. … By embracing evangelicals and being embraced by them, he is bringing Mormonism into the denominational scheme that characterizes mainstream American Christianity. … Evangelical Protestants who once believed that Mormonism was a deviant sect, not a legitimate denomination, may come to believe something very different as they prepare to cast their votes for a Romney. The practice of pluralism can come first. The beliefs can come later.

So far, so good. The second point Feldman makes is that religious normalization may bring unexpected changes to Mormons as well:

On the other hand, seen through the lens of history, entering the mainstream poses major risks. If Mormons think of themselves as another Christian denomination, the risk of defection rises. The distinctive Mormon beliefs in a new scripture and in the possibility of joining the supernal realm for eternal life will come into jeopardy precisely because they mark differences with the Protestant mainstream. If you believe you are not that different from others, there will be a tendency to downplay those practices and beliefs that suggest otherwise.

The great model for this assimilationist danger is the German political emancipation of the Jews, which directly led to Reform Judaism. Removing the perception that Jews were fundamentally outside Christian society was a tremendous sociological boon to the German Jewish community in the early 1800s. Entering the mainstream, however, encouraged Jews to adopt practices and beliefs that corresponded to the very “modern” world that was welcoming them.

Feldman is suggesting that Romney’s candidacy will produce the mainstreaming of Mormonism which will naturally, perhaps inexorably, result in the emergence of Reform Mormonism. Not so fast, I hear you say.

LDS blogger and historian Christopher Jones replied to Feldman in “The Limits of Mormon Assimilation.” Jones stresses that Mormonism is not “just another denomination” and is unlikely to become so:

Even as Mormons participate in interfaith dialogue with evangelical Protestants and seek to find theological common ground, they remain distinct, and intentionally so. Recognition of a shared commitment to Christ is not, for Mormons, the end goal. Rather, it is a starting point for Mormons to then explicate the ways in which their own teachings build on the biblical foundation of Protestantism.

Jones agrees with Feldman that Romney’s candidacy is an external force that will move Mormonism toward the mainstream, but emphasizes the internal dynamic of Mormonism that will resist assimilation or the emergence of anything like “Reform Mormonism.” Like corporate executives managing their brand, LDS leaders carefully and actively manage LDS identity to the extent they can do so, the “I’m a Mormon” ad campaign being just one of many examples. While “I’m a Mormon” sounds an assimilationist note, the overall push imparted by LDS leaders over the last two generations has been in the direction of separatism, not assimilation. Right now, that means they are swimming against the current.

So will the currents unleashed by an LDS candidate at the top of the ticket force assimilation upon the Church? Or will LDS leaders dig in their heels and stay the separate course? I am confident Mormons twenty years from now will still be saying, “I’m a Mormon,” but what kind of Mormon will they be?


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichristian; baptism; christian; inman; lds; mormon
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Times and Seasons is a Mormon bloggers' site.

From the blog: Mormons claim to be Christian, while at the same time denying divine authority and full legitimacy to all other Christian denominations.

Well, ya gotta understand...Joseph Smith Had to do that...elsewise there was absolutely no need for a so-called Mormon "restoration."

The "bottom line" that is "Mormon ground zero" for any interfaith discussion MUST be to evaluate every Christian denomination through their filter of apostasy...

Why is that? Because to the Mormon, the "restoration" is always a hand-in-glove concept with a supposed total apostasy...hence, why we Christians (ALL of us) are regarded by Mormons as so-called "apostates."

How did the Mormon "restoration" come to be so closely linked with so-called complete Christian apostasy?
(1) No "restoration" can occur minus the complete loss of the original church. (The Mormon founder needed to take a scorched-earth approach to Christians, otherwise he -- and his restoration -- was 100% superflous. Either he was unnecessary, or the Christian church was...so Smith chose the Christian church to be! He essentially tossed all Christians into one gigantic graveyard, and tried to erect a new religion on top of it.)
(2) Let's face it, if Smith's "diagnosis" of Christians was wrong, that all did NOT commit apostasy, then no need existed for him or his restoration-from-scratch. [Even all the Lds Bible verses they come up with on the apostasy (a) proves it wasn't to be "universal"; and (b) actually contradicts it...verses like Eph. 3:21 and 1 Tim. 4:1]

Hence, this article's blogger -- Dave Banack -- is only telling "half" (at best) the tale as to how Mormon leaders treat Christians!

For example: Let's assume a Mormon who...
...has the absolute BEST manners, best attitude, best tone,
...and then cites Lds-specific "scripture," saying...
..."Yea, oh, yea, this is God's opinion of you spoken in the canonized word throught the 'prophet' Joseph Smith -- You, oh, Christian are ALL...
...'corrupt professors' saith the 14 or 15 yo Joseph Smith as spoken to the Mormon God...
...thee are 100% wrong creedally...
...and NONE of your churches are worth joining,
...and you lack any true power...
...oh, and BTW, you are ALL apostates, too."

You know what? I'd rather have...
...a Christian of another true Christian denomination condemn me to hell in word, tone, and attitude...
...than a Mormon who is exemplary in tone, attitude & manner -- yet labels me with this huge kind, nice, smiley-face grin a...
...corrupt,
...powerless,
...abominable apostate heart-drifter...
...who teaches only human precepts...
...and is ALL wrong.

AND EVERY TITHING MORMON HAS ENGAGED IN THIS LABELING...
...And exactly how have they done that?

...BECAUSE THEY HAVE PAID FOR HUNDREDS OF TRANSLATIONS OF THIS 'SCRIPTURE' AND CURRICULA AND ENSIGN MAG ARTICLES AND MISSIONARY LESSON PLANS AND OFTEN MISSIONARIES THEMSELVES to go 'round the world to spread this slander and libel!!!!

1 posted on 06/02/2012 8:54:13 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
What is quite interesting is one particular Mormon's frank response to this blog in the comments section @ the Times and Seasons' cite:

Scroll down to comment #11 from Manuel -- and you'll see:

I definitely see what Dave is saying and the problem with reciprocity. I however, did not grow up in the US Mormon safeheaven, rather, I grew up as a young Mormon having converted from Catholicism in Mexico, where there are still heated confrontations regarding the legitimacy of Catholic Priesthood vs the legitimacy of LDS Priesthood (which we claim was restored since it was lost due to a “Great Apostasy.”

Growing up among Mormons in Mexico, I heard countless times from Mormons the Catholic Church was de facto the “Great and Abominable Church” spoken of in the scriptures.

I cannot possibly believe the people here claiming they have never known a Mormon as described by Dave in the OP. I am having a real hard time believing that and that little frustration of the “all is well in Zion, we are such good and belevolent people who are simply mistunderstood by others unwillingness to understand us” pathology really starts to seem like a creepy problem among Mormons.

At the same time, now living in UT, I realize there are in fact places where Mormons remain completely isolated from certain aspects of our interaction with other faiths, and thus many of them simply ignore what really goes on, how we ourlseves attack others. Assuming that their view is the general reality of our interfaith relations seems quite a bit presumptuous (and ignorant of course).

The language we Mormons use against other denominations is definitely strong (even Richard Bushman has noted this). We claim to have the restored Priesthood, we claim no other denomination has such priesthood therefore, no other denomination has the legitimate authority to celebrate sacraments in the name of God with true validity.

We make claims “the Lord” stated the denominations found in the time of Joseph Smith are “an abomination” to Him.

We do seem to completely forget (or completely conveniently ignore) these things though when we cry and moan that other denominations don’t aknowledge us as Christians, and we paint ourselves as a benevolent group trying to be good buddies with others with parallel beliefs.

See it’s easy to play victim, but we really aren’t. We are vicious at playing the name calling game and making strong claims of our own Christian legitimacy vs other denominations’ Christian illegitimacy. We play the game and we play it good. I am with Dave on this one that it appears as if we have not thought things through.

Boy, did Manuel the Mormon-from-Mexico-now-living-in-insulated Utah hit it on the head! People who don’t see the problem of reciprocity do need to think things through, study and perhaps get a bit more acquainted with actual interactions between regular LDS members and their non LDS peers.

2 posted on 06/02/2012 9:02:42 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian
Mormonism is not Trinitarian, therefore it is not Christian. It is a false religion.

That said, I will still vote for Romney. I am only voting for him for president, not pastor, which is a more important office.

As long as Romney doesn't use the presidency to peddle distinctive Mormon false doctrines--and I don't think either Governor Romney did--then his LDS heresy doesn't stop me from voting for him.

Besides, Obama doesn't belong to any church now, and his previous Rev. Wright church did not teach Christian doctrine, either.

3 posted on 06/02/2012 9:13:26 AM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
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To: All
Again, let's zero in on a few of Manuel-the-Mormon from Mexico's comments:

Scroll down to comment #11 from Manuel -- and you'll see:

********************

We make claims “the Lord” stated the denominations found in the time of Joseph Smith are “an abomination” to Him.

We do seem to completely forget (or completely conveniently ignore) these things though when we cry and moan that other denominations don’t aknowledge us as Christians, and we paint ourselves as a benevolent group trying to be good buddies with others with parallel beliefs.

See it’s easy to play victim, but we really aren’t. We are vicious at playing the name calling game and making strong claims of our own Christian legitimacy vs other denominations’ Christian illegitimacy. We play the game and we play it good.

**************

Yes, indeed...As this Mormon concedes, "We are vicious at playing the name calling game...We play the game and we play it good."

So what about "boundaries" 'tween Mormons and Christians. How do we tend to draw those lines distinctively?

#1 Jesus draws the line at Himself. Mormons? They draw the line at places like Joseph Smith and the Lds Church!

Example A – Brigham Young: "...EVERYevery spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist..." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 435)

(Does that sound very “civil” to you – for Mormon “prophets” to label us all as “of Antichrist”???)

Example B – Spencer W. Kimball, Lds’ 12th “prophet”: "Presumptuous and blasphemous are they who purport to baptize, bless, marry, or perform other sacraments in the name of the Lord while in fact lacking his specific authorization." (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 494)

Now with this quote you need to understand that Lds teach ALL authority for this priesthood ability rests ONLY in the Mormon church. Therefore, they label ALL Christian pastors and priests who ”baptize, bless, marry, and perform …sacraments” as engaging in “blasphemous” behavior. See how skewed doctrinal believes leads to “uncivil” accusations?

Example C – Lds leaders: "Since whoever does not belong to 'the church of the Lamb of God' belongs to 'the church of the devil,' as Nephi announced then all systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as 'the church of the devil' by Nephi's definition (Kent B. Jackson, "Watch and Remember" etc. from publication By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 3/27/90, vol. 1, p. 87)

We can see how it’s not exactly “hospitable” for the Mormon claim that all other churches are part of “the church of the devil”? I suppose you may next simply say, “Well, hey, if all they are doing is teaching what their word says, how can that be deemed as ‘uncivil?’ For one thing, most Christians seem to own up to the implications of John 14:6 (or, at least, they one time did). Mormons don’t EVER want to seem to own up to the implications of D&C 1:30, 1 Nephi 14:9-10, and JS – History, vv. 18-20.

In other words, they like to play “victim” and say “woe is us” – look at how Mormons are being treated – not realizing that the same thing (only often worse) has been coming right out of their tithing $ paying for the Lds publishing expenses on these accusations.

4 posted on 06/02/2012 9:13:47 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: All
Scroll down to comment #11 from Manuel -- and you'll see:

See it’s easy to play victim, but we really aren’t. We are vicious at playing the name calling game and making strong claims of our own Christian legitimacy vs other denominations’ Christian illegitimacy. We play the game and we play it good.

Professors @ BYU confirm this viciousness on the part of insular Mormonism in Utah.

In 2001 at the BYU Women’s Conference, James A. Toronto, a BYU associate professor, was invited to speak. His title: “No More Strangers and Foreigners” This was published by BYU the following year under the title “Ye Shall Bear Record of Me.”

BTW, did I "get this" info from some "anti-Mormon" site? (No. I own the book)

Allow me to quote Dr. Toronto:

p. 35 of No More Strangers and Foreigners: ”As adviser to several non-LDS student groups on BYU campus and a teacher of world religions, I have had many opportunities to interact with those whose ethnicity, religion, politics or lifestyle places them outside the BYU mainstream…Unfortunately…those of divergent backgrounds among us hae felt excluded, demeaned, or diminished…I have wondered what leads us to exhibit sometimes intolerant, unkind attitudes toward others. Why does society at large perceive us as a community characterized by insular attitudes toward outsiders?”

Toronto then adds some are “mistreated” and “have difficulty being accepted.”

p. 36 of book: ”I have also observed that doctrinal misunderstandings often lie at the root of intolerant behavior and attitudes sometimes exhibited by Church members. Three prominent examples will illustrate. First, sometimes Church members…refer…only to the seemingly exclusivist language of certain scriptural passages…we unwittingly portray a sanctimonious, holier-than-thou stance that…is offensive to nonmembers. In my comparative world religions course, I deal with this problem in the first minute of the first class period each semester. I begin the discussion by reading some scriptures familiar to all Latter-day Saints: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ‘the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth’ (D&C 1:30); the leaders of other faiths ‘draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me’ and all their creeds are an ‘abomination’ in God’s sight (Joseph Smith-History 1:19)…”

p. 37 of book: ”We reinforce the erroneous idea that all other religious are completely false and dead and that our community does not value the spiritual experience of others.”

On p. 39 of book, Dr. Toronto also mentions ”how a skewed understanding of doctrine can lead to unkind attitudes and behavior…”

So, to sum up Dr. Toronto, a BYU prof in a book published by BYU:

(1) He said: ”…doctrinal misunderstandings often lie at the root of intolerant behavior and attitudes…” (p. 36)
(2) Lds communicate to the Christian world that we “are completely false and dead” (p. 37) and are creedally valueless as Lds “scripture” teaches that Christians don’t have a single creed that honors God.
(3) He also blamed ”…a skewed understanding of doctrine” as what was behind …”lead[ing] to unkind attitudes and behavior…”

It's this last point I want to close my comment upon. You see, it's not simply, I believe, lack of Mormon graciousness...lack of Mormon charity...etc. that has resulted in what Mormons and especially Mormon leaders have said about Christians for 180 years. I think Dr. Toronto is on to something when he says: "...a skewed understanding of doctrine" has overwhelmingly contributed to fueling "unkind attitudes and behaviors..."!!!

5 posted on 06/02/2012 9:18:46 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Charles Henrickson
I am only voting for him for president, not pastor, which is a more important office.

Oh sure...discernment doesn't have anything to do with being THE leader of the free world...
...gullibility doesn't have anything to do with being THE leader of the free world...
...being vulnerable to deception doesn't have anything to do with being THE leader of the free world...

/sarc

6 posted on 06/02/2012 9:21:12 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian
I don't know that there's ever been a president I agreed with theologically. Maybe John Hanson, the first president under the Articles. I think he was a Lutheran.

Jefferson literally cut the New Testament to pieces.

7 posted on 06/02/2012 9:25:32 AM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
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To: Charles Henrickson
mormonism is not now or will it ever be Christian.

Before you make the claim: As long as Romney doesn't use the presidency to peddle distinctive Mormon false doctrines--and I don't think either Governor Romney did--then his LDS heresy doesn't stop me from voting for him.

You might be wise to learn what mormonism is and how at the level the Romney family is in the SLC lds corporation they have promoted their cult.

8 posted on 06/02/2012 9:30:51 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: All
A few years ago, I was looking for an illustration as to how Mormon leaders have treated us Christians. I came up with the Game of Clue.

You see, Lds parse it all to either...
...strip us Christians of our entire identity,
...or simply play theological games where they ignore what their leaders have said about us ...But, alas the Mormon "we're oppressed & persecuted victim" sob story doesn't sell very well once it gets out all the different labels with which they've slandered the worldwide Church of Christ!

That's where the game of Clue comes in as an illustration...
...it just doesn't seem to click with Mormons that unless...
...Joseph Smith...
...killed Rev. Green...
...in the Hall...
...with a monkey wrench [Note: in the UK version of "Clue," "Mr. Green" is known as "Rev. Green"],
...then no restoration...
...no new prophet...
...no new authority...
...no new keys of the kingdom...
...no new church...
...were needed!
(It 'twas entirely ALL superflous and unnecessary).

And there goes the entire Mormon structure tumbling down the wayside!

What a "tough" way to go then for the contemporary Mormon. He can either join in with Mormon leaders and engage in all that nasty vicious name-calling of ALL of "Christendom" --
-- or he/she can recognize the Lds church was entirely superflous and unnecessary!

There's no "middle ground."

9 posted on 06/02/2012 9:34:32 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian

Gracers....

“Whores of Babylon....”

“Stupider pack of lies.....”


10 posted on 06/02/2012 9:40:39 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live athrough it anyway)
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To: svcw
Oh, I am very much opposed to Mormonism, obviously, being a confessional Lutheran pastor. I condemn Mormonism in no uncertain terms. If Romney believes that pile of crap, then his eternal salvation is in peril. And I wouldn't let him teach a Sunday School class for five minutes.

But he can still do some good in the civil realm. There are lots of non-Christians who have been good citizens and public servants. And I think he'll be a heckuva lot better at president than Obama.

11 posted on 06/02/2012 9:40:39 AM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
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To: Colofornian
now living in UT, I realize there are in fact places where Mormons remain completely isolated from certain aspects of our interaction with other faiths, and thus many of them simply ignore what really goes on, how we ourlseves attack others. Assuming that their view is the general reality of our interfaith relations seems quite a bit presumptuous (and ignorant of course).

An excellent example of mormon attitude was posted yesterday at exmormon.org

****************************

---email from Ben W. May 2012 -----
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,518002


Hello, my name is Benjamin and I'm a 19 year old Mormon. Having said that, I've never felt the holy spirit in any other church. This website depicts me and my faith as a joke and/or a drug that is in desperate need of 'recovery'. have you ever read the book of Mormon? try focusing on what the belief consists of rather than what the people do. I know that Christ died for my sins, that i may live again. Is that not the same? i not only have one holy book to gain knowledge of God from, but two and maybe more to come. Judge lest ye be judged. This website needs shut down. i don't call mormonism a religion. It's a knowledge that can only by gained by reading the book of Mormon, another collection of prophecies that point to Christ and a second coming. the end. And when the end comes, which i believe is in my lifetime, do you want to be judged by the Lord for putting down your fellow man? If there need be an organization such as yours, it should be toward ignorance of christianity as a whole. Mormons don't think they are better than anyone else, its the fact that we have more. And you reject the words of God, for the book of Mormon was translated by young farm boy from an ancient Egyptian writing. There are words in the book that haven't been used in centuries. there is no way that the book of Mormon was made up. And if it weren't made up, and it's words are true, who did they come from? The very God that gave his only son. Joseph Smith translated the golden plates through his devotion and faith in the holy spirit. So read the book, and when you find yourself thinking that it isn't true and it's just a bunch of made up stories and good teachings, then you have fallen to temptation. When you realize that the devil himself keeps you from reading the book, you will open your eyes.

--------------------------------------

Note how Benjamin consistently denigrates others while whining about "persecution"...If there need be an organization such as yours, it should be toward ignorance of christianity as a whole. Mormons don't think they are better than anyone else, its the fact that we have more.

His whole statement reeks of the mormon attitude of superiority and arrogance very much in the way Romney's does.

12 posted on 06/02/2012 9:41:11 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The inability or unwillingness to reality test beliefs is okay for my plumber but not for POTUS.)
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To: Charles Henrickson
I don't know that there's ever been a president I agreed with theologically.

You use the word "theologically" like a few too many Concordia types...boxed...compartmentalized...

Theology is the study of God as applied to our ENTIRE world...including...
...politically...

Let's just start with a real simple primer here...

If you've ever seen the TV series "24"...they had an African-American president enduring some real super-crises...

I would like to know that if our country had a real super-crisis going on, that our prez would at least know which "God" -- which "batphone" to pick up, if you will -- to communicate with to help with immediate counsel, direction, guidance, discernment, wisdom...not to mention IMMEDIATE delivery of His Resources and Power to that given situation!!!!

And you seem to tell us with your compartmentalized "theology" nonsense that it doesn't matter which god the POTUS prays to? It's "OK" that the Mormon god who was a man and a sinner who died gets the collect call from Romney in the middle of the night as his personal "consultant?"

What has our country come to?

Surely you've studied kings in the Old Testament.

Are you going to tell us with a straight face that you could interchange any king with any other king in the Old Testament and it wouldn't have mattered what happened in those situations??? Oh, sure some of those kings were more "theologically" savvy than others; but, hey, what's a few loose "theological" screws?

13 posted on 06/02/2012 9:43:09 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian
No, a man could be a good president without being an orthodox Christian. Conversely, being a pious Christian does not mean that one candidate would be a better, more competent president than another.

I don't know of many presidents I would look up to as religious exemplars.

In this case, Obama vs. Romney, I don't look up to either, as far as their religion, or lack thereof, is concerned. I judge on political grounds.

14 posted on 06/02/2012 9:54:29 AM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
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To: Colofornian
Oh sure...discernment doesn't have anything to do with being THE leader of the free world...

SIGHHH....it appears that "discernment" doesn't have anything to do with the ignorance of voters. I have yet to see anyone, mormon or not who will guarantee to me that this vow that Romney took in the mormon temple will not override his oath of office as POTUS. Not a single guarantee. It appears that a change of masters over the country to the mormon leaders and power brokers is perfectly acceptable.

You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion".

15 posted on 06/02/2012 9:55:41 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The inability or unwillingness to reality test beliefs is okay for my plumber but not for POTUS.)
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To: Charles Henrickson
If the US elects a Mormon whose great-grandfather was a polygamist, who knows where it might lead? Someday we might have a Muslim President whose father was a polygamist.

Mormons consider it a religious duty to trace your ancestors (so they can be posthumously baptized). What if Romney gets elected and makes everyone do their genealogy? Just in case, the Ancestry.com people ought to be pumping money into his campaign.

16 posted on 06/02/2012 9:57:20 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: greyfoxx39

How sad for Ben, even, my lds family refer to me as “primitive” because as they say “you just don’t get it”.


17 posted on 06/02/2012 9:57:55 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Verginius Rufus
Ancestry.com people ought to be pumping money into his campaign.

They probably are since they are owned the the SLC lds corporation.

18 posted on 06/02/2012 10:00:45 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: greyfoxx39; All
His whole statement reeks of the mormon attitude of superiority and arrogance very much in the way Romney's does.

Well, notice what happened when a mere supporter of Gov. Perry -- not somebody on his campaign team, but a supporter (a pastor), called Mormonism a "cult."

A LOT of Mormons got up in arms about that.

Somehow, it was reflected that Gov. Perry -- unless he address every single worldview of every supporter he has -- wouldn't be very "inspiring" to Mormon voters as "their" candidate.

Yet when we now reverse that...And when we look @ the entire "catalog" of things that the temple Mormon Mitt Romney believes about Christians...

...That we're not part of the...
... "only true living church on the face of the earth" (D&C 1:30) [No, that apparently belongs to Mormons alone]

& that the rest of the churches are under Satan's umbrella (1 Nephi 14:9-10)
& that those churches should not be joined 'cause they are "ALL wrong" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History, vv. 18-19)
& they are "ALL wrong" cause 100% of their creeds are an "abomination" to their God (ibid)
& that their professors are "ALL corrupt" heart-drifters who lack power...(ibid)

How is this suddenly "inspirational" for Christians to vote for a man who has spent literally $MILLIONS to get the above message out about Christians worldwide?

The whole lot who doesn't see the obvious discrepancy here are religious hypocrites!

What gets me is that those heavily funding this world-wide slander and libel of Christianity have themselves initiated an "enemy" role of the cross and have treated Christianity as a hostile faith.

Yet their self-initiated enemy role of the cross and Christianity is suddenly ignored and negated by Christians and its leaders alike.

What does God think of that?

What does God think of Christian leaders who go about endorsing a man who is a supposed "divine-in-embryo"?

Is God neutral toward Christians who elevate idols?

19 posted on 06/02/2012 10:08:28 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian

Mormonism is going to be forced to address these issues, or continue its melt down in membership.

Either the ‘orthodox’ mormonism wins out - then the emphasis on them being ‘christian’ will die down with greater emphasis on separation. Or the professors at byu will win out and dilute fundamental mormon doctrines such as the alleged factual history of the bom to be substituted as an allegory or spiritual story. More acceptance of the Christian doctrine of grace displacing traditional works based salvation.


20 posted on 06/02/2012 10:09:05 AM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Verginius Rufus
If the US elects a Mormon whose great-grandfather was a polygamist, who knows where it might lead? Someday we might have a Muslim President whose father was a polygamist.

As a descendent of a Mormon polygamist myself, I can speak firsthand that there is a carry-over effect to diminishing the institution of one-man, one-woman marriage.

I've seen it in the Mormon culture. And I would say a trickle of that trickled down to Massachussetts when Mitt utterly FAILED to stand up to the MA Supreme Court, which had no authority to institute same-sex marriage.

It was there even from the get-go when Lds began moving away from polygamy (1890). From 1890-1910, Lds leaders solemnized another 250 or so plural marriages...on the sly...

It was there in 1898 when Utah voters voted in B.H. Roberts to Congress. Roberts had taken yet a third wife around 1893 -- three years AFTER the manifesto moving Mormons away from polygamy. Do you think evaluating a Congressional candidate who openly ignored "prophet" Wilford Woodruff's manifesto bothered Utah Mormons enough not to vote for Roberts?

No.

Do you think that collective action by Utah Mormons bothered Republicans around the nation?

You bet. Grassroots, pre-mass media America got together 28 banners and signed 7 MILLION signatures asking Congress NOT to seat B.H. Roberts as Congressman. (And they didn't; they sent him back to Utah)

By extension, you can disparage grassroots people in 1898 all you want, VR...

You can somehow claim that Mormonism's long-time dissing of monogamy and Muslim's long-time dissing of monogamy hasn't had ANY effect upon Romney's lack of defense of it in MA or Obama's lack of defense of it now, but I'll vehemently disagree!

I'll stand with those 1898 grassroots Americans.

I won't buy into your false choices that we either have to vote for Romney or Obama...because we don't have to be part of their falsehood voter-clans.

21 posted on 06/02/2012 10:20:49 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Godzilla

You and I have both have been saying something to that effect for a while. The LDS are going to have to mainstream to survive. At some point a great “prophet” will come forth and set everything straight, explain away the BOM perhaps as some test of the faithful or something. It will come to pass somehow. Probably end up in some mix of old school Protestantism.

Hey if that happens will you and I be “prophets”....


22 posted on 06/02/2012 10:35:11 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Verginius Rufus
If the US elects a Mormon whose great-grandfather was a polygamist, who knows where it might lead?

#1 For the record, an early 1960s survey showed that 40% of Mormons would embrace polygamy if their leader told them to...
"Another survey taken in the 1960s found that not only do contemporary church members overwhelmingly disapprove of polygamy but only two in five said they would enter the principle if commanded by the prophets." [B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant, p. 339, citing survey published in 1963 by John R. Christiansen, "Contemporary Mormons' Attitudes Toward Polygamous Practices," Journal of Marriage and Family 25 (May 1963): pp. 167-170)].

#2 Mormon culture did indeed lead Mormons to heavily frown upon monogamy:

"The need for prostitution...was seized on by Mormons as evidence that monogamy was manifestly an incorrect system of marriage...From the 1850s until the end of the century, Mormon writers and speakers struck at what they considered their detractors' hypocrisy for criticizing Mormon marriage when, as the First Presidency affirmed in 1886, adultery and prostitution were the consequences of the monogamic arrangement.... (Hardy, A Solemn Covenant, p. 89, citing "An Epistle of the First Presidency..." March 1886, Messages 3:68...Hardy cites in the same footnote about 8 other sources from Heber C. Kimball to Brigham Young to John Taylor to George Q. Cannon to apostle Erasmus Snow).

So there ya go! The embracing of polygamy naturally led to an elitist position where polygamists looked down upon, frowned upon, and even openly dismissed or criticized "monogamy!"

When Mormons had an LDS "prophet" in 1886 claiming that adultery and prostitution were the consequences of monogamy, that's a major, major problem!!! In fact, Hardy devoted a full chapter to how LDS regarded polygamy as sexually superior--not for erotic or orgy reasons--but for what they regarded was the "opposite"--associating prostitution and the resulting ill-health with monogamy, etc.

**************

Oh, and for those who think mainstream Mormon polygamy is so passe' -- so yesteryear -- I've yet to see any Lds leader shoot down what Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie wrote in "Mormon Doctrine":

"Obviously the holy practice (of polygamy) will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium." (Mainsteam Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966 edition, see pp. 577-579 for context)

This was a book, mind you, republished with close oversight of two Lds "prophets" (Lee & Kimball, 11th & 12th Lds presidents); republished again in 1979...and then twice again in '91 & '93 under the 13th Lds "prophet's" watch... no wonder it achieved "almost a scriptural stature...near-canonical status."

The Mormon church ensured it got ahold of the direct copyright by acquiring it from Bookcraft and published under its direct ownership umbrella (Deseret Book Publishing) in 1993.

This book was published under 7, count 'em 7, Mormon "prophets" (McKay, Lee, Kimball, Benson, Hunter, Hinckley, Monson). Only McKay -- over 50 years ago -- conveyed strongly that alterations needs be forthcoming...and the above quote wasn't part of that!

23 posted on 06/02/2012 10:47:21 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Charles Henrickson
I don't know of many presidents I would look up to as religious exemplars.

Charles, you and I both know that the only time the Bible references "religion" is the book of James -- re: helping the poor.

Otherwise, even the Bible isn't an "exemplar" about "how to be 'religious'"...unless, of course, we're talking only about feeding the poor.

[Kind of surprised you of all people went this direction]

I mean, the "Pharisees" and "teachers of the law" were religious...and Jesus essentially said told the people to listen to them but NOT to practice their faith inwardly as they do.

In this case, Obama vs. Romney, I don't look up to either, as far as their religion, or lack thereof, is concerned. I judge on political grounds.

And you would be consistent, of course...if a jihadist Muslim spouting "conservative" politics ran...
...or a "conservative" Satanist or Wicca candidate?

And, mind you, we're not talking about your local dogcatcher here...but THE leader of the free world.

(Oh, even Romney probably flunked dogcatcher candidacy by taking his dog cross-country on the roof of his station wagon)

24 posted on 06/02/2012 10:54:44 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian
Use whichever term you like--religion, spirituality, piety, doctrine, theology, faith, belief, church, whatever--I do not look to a president for that kind of guidance. I don't know of many--or any--I would look up to in that regard. As long as they do a good job in governance, that's what I'm looking for.

As far as your hypothetical "jihadist Muslim" "conservative" politician, that is a contradiction in terms. If he is a jihadist Muslim, he is by definition anti-American and would use the sword against this country. That's part and parcel of militant Islam.

25 posted on 06/02/2012 11:11:29 AM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
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To: Colofornian; svcw
By conicidence, I just got this e-mail from Fred Thompson a short while ago:

The Mormon Or The Muslim?

Q (from 80120): Who can we support? Romney is a Mormon and Obama is a Muslim. Never has the lessor of two evils been such a disgrace. Ron Paul is a better choice, but if we vote for him, we put Obama back in office. What has happened to my country?

A: Don’t fall for this Mormon stuff. That would be falling for the Obama game plan. Now that the general election is here, it’s going to be respectable in the eyes of the mainstream media to engage in all sorts of demagoguery about Mormons. None of us will ever get our ideal candidate but this country is headed for a cliff and it has very little to do with organized religion. We’ve gotta go with Mitt. Obama selections for the Supreme Court for another four years will have an adverse effect on the proper role of religion in our country and in our schools as well as a host of other issues.

I agree with Fred Thompson.

26 posted on 06/02/2012 11:25:18 AM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Constitutional and social conservative Republican who wants to win)
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To: Charles Henrickson
Use whichever term you like--religion, spirituality, piety, doctrine, theology, faith, belief, church, whatever--I do not look to a president for that kind of guidance.

Charles, that's rather short-sighted...especially for somebody who shepherds both the young and the spiritually immature.

You may not (do not) look to a POTUS for that kind of guidance, but as my tagline shows, the spiritually vulnerable do.

You know as well as I do that one of our nation's problems is that the ceiling of authority for too many people ends @ the govt's hand (and/or Supreme Ct).

You and I probably BOTH saw that in the immediate aftermath of Katrina, when the liberals saw only govt as their "savior." IOW, people in power & authority are almost -- Psalm 82-like -- treated as "gods."

That cultural outlook rains upon the young (& spiritually immature) as well...

You know as well as I do how grandiose and even legendary a POTUS can become in the minds of the young. (Look @ how Kennedy's reputation was for so long -- despite his mini-orgies in the White House).

Romney-as-puppet-of-a-'prophet' -- coupled with the massive PR effort to be undertaken by the Lds church -- will seek to "Mormonize" the nation.

They won't care if they "only" reach another 1.7% of the nation -- their current size. If they can double themselves from 1.7% to 3.4% -- plus put in the minds of the young and spiritually vulnerable that they should seriously consider Mormonism @ some future juncture, that's a 100% hike with seeds planted to triple and quadruple themselves.

I am frankly surprised that you look @ this only from the angle of the spiritually mature Christian leader. What if our Great Shepherd Jesus had done the same thing?

27 posted on 06/02/2012 12:21:31 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Charles Henrickson
I condemn Mormonism in no uncertain terms. If Romney believes that pile of crap, then his eternal salvation is in peril. And I wouldn't let him teach a Sunday School class for five minutes.

Well, the opportunity for "condemnation" is during this "Mormon moment."

Time for you & other shepherds to "step up to the mike," so to speak -- and lose the soft-spoken two-step.

Time to be a Titus-like pastor: He [context is an "elder" in v. 6; an "overseer" in v. 7] must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. (Titus 1:9)

An opportune time, Charles, to engage in the dual ministry of encouraging others via sound doctrine -- and refuting those who oppose it...(such as Bishop Romney and his fellow Lds leaders).

But he can still do some good in the civil realm. There are lots of non-Christians who have been good citizens and public servants.

Charles, we both know God can choose who He wants to do accomplish His purpose in any realm. The issue is, "Does God want His Church closely linked with people who portend to be rival gods and who openly pay for a false gospel?"

We can't hide ourselves from recognizing how Romney has spent his $millions.

And I think he'll be a heckuva lot better at president than Obama.

And a reincarnated Hitler might make a helluva lot "better" president than THE anti-Christ. (Are you into political relativism now? Political pragmatic utilitarianism? Is this what you want to pass onto your children, grandchildren, and flock? Are you telling us all now that in 2024 if the GOP runs somebody well to the socialist-left of Obama we should vote for that person because they'd make "a heckuva lot better president" than whoever the (D) put up?)

Wow! Just Wow!

28 posted on 06/02/2012 12:33:38 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian
I don't know of anybody who has joined a church based on the religion of the president. I will continue to preach and teach against the false doctrines of the Mormons, even as I support Romney, if he's doing a good job as president.

In any case, it comes down to Obama vs. Romney. One of these two men will be the president. Who will do the better job for our country? I think Romney. There's no way I could possibly vote for Obama. I want to see him out of there. And the only way for that to happen is to elect Romney. In no way is that an endorsement of his false religion.

29 posted on 06/02/2012 12:46:12 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Constitutional and social conservative Republican who wants to win)
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To: ejonesie22

I suspect it may be something close to what the RLDS have progressively gone through. However, I think it will be hard for them to give up the money factory temples - and the associated stuff. What I can’t answer is just how embedded the old ‘orthodoxy’ is.


30 posted on 06/02/2012 12:53:44 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Charles Henrickson

I am only voting for him for president, not pastor, which is a more important office.
____________________________________________

Are you saying that the office of president of the United States (in which Obama now sits)

is more important than

the office of the president for life and “prophet” of the Mormons (in which Tommy Monson now sits) ???


31 posted on 06/02/2012 1:44:52 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Colofornian
More Than Christian?

HELL NO!!!!

32 posted on 06/02/2012 2:41:11 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
HELL NO!!!!


Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

33 posted on 06/02/2012 2:41:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Charles Henrickson

Office of First President & Living Prophet

November 1st, 2011

The message for this month is -

...to stay on our mantra: We ARE Christians!!

We've been taking a beating on the Internet - especially from those hateful ANTIs on FreeRepublic!
 
We MUST keep the media constantly informed of those things the world considers christian.

We must NOT allow our MORMONness to show thru, as it has gotten a really bad rap thru history - lord only knows why...
 
 
Tommy

34 posted on 06/02/2012 2:44:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Tennessee Nana
Are you saying that the office of president of the United States (in which Obama now sits) is more important than the office of the president for life and “prophet” of the Mormons (in which Tommy Monson now sits) ???

Huh?? Where did you get that from what I said?? All I said was that I would vote for Romney for President of the United States, where he might do a good job, but I would not vote for him to be a pastor, since he is an adherent of a false religion. It's the distinction between the civil and the spiritual realms.

35 posted on 06/02/2012 2:44:57 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
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To: Charles Henrickson
...but I would not vote for him to be a pastor, since he is an adherent of a false religion. It's the distinction between the civil and the spiritual realms.

While; I COULD not vote for him to be The PRESIDENT, since he is an adherent of a false religion. It's the fact that ROMNEY, being in an EXALTED position; would lead more folks into a FALSE salvation than Barak EVER could!!


My religion has been fun and my country has been fun, but now they are in collision; and I am FORCED into deciding which one is more important to me.

36 posted on 06/02/2012 3:22:37 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: greyfoxx39; Godzilla; svcw
I don't know if anyone is interested in rebutting something like this from another thread, but if they are, here is the link.

Where and when have Mormons ever attacked any Christian Church? It is the Baptists who are constantly attacking Mormons. They fear them because Mormons stand up for what they believe and are not hypocrites.

37 posted on 06/02/2012 3:53:32 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: Colofornian

#1 For the record, an early 1960s survey showed that 40% of Mormons would embrace polygamy if their leader told them to...
________________________________________________

Yeah most of the men...

the other 10% of the men had their wives next to them and were too chicken to admit it...


38 posted on 06/02/2012 3:57:59 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Elsie; Colofornian; svcw
Look, when I want someone to do a job for me--fix my toilet, change the oil in my car, serve in a governmental office--I pick the guy based on how well I think he will do that particular job, not based on his religion.

I cannot think of any president in my lifetime who has led people into his religion by being president. Kennedy? There was a lot of attention on his religion, but I don't think people became Roman Catholics because of him. Carter? There was a lot of attention on his religion, too, but I don't think anyone became a Baptist because of his being president. And I have seen no evidence so far--in his governorship or in his campaign--that Romney would use the presidency to proselytize for Mormonism.

If I were to judge political candidates on the basis of their religion, for fear that someone might adopt their religion because they're in office, there'd be hardly anybody I could vote for.

39 posted on 06/02/2012 4:10:05 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
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To: Charles Henrickson

Good

cause that false religion guy is to whom Romney as president of the United States would be answering and bowing..

Its his blood sworn oath and duty to do so...

The people of the United States would not be important ...

Tommy Monson and when he dies whomever sits in the office of the president for life and “prophet” of the Mormons would be...

If you didnt like the bowing Obama did you sure arent going to like what Romney does...

and BTW Romney is a Mormon high priest for life and a Mormon bishop..

Pastors are in Christianity..


40 posted on 06/02/2012 4:14:03 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Tennessee Nana
that false religion guy is to whom Romney as president of the United States would be answering and bowing.

They made that same argument when Kennedy was running for president, that the Pope would be giving him orders. Didn't happen.

And if Romney's religious beliefs do not conflict with his duty to serve in accord with the Constitution, no problem. Same with any other politician.

We do not have a religious test for public office in this country. You may have, but that's you.

41 posted on 06/02/2012 4:21:12 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
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To: Charles Henrickson

We do not have a religious test for public office in this country.
_________________________________________

No, anyone can run for office...

But nobody has to vote for them...

We are free under the Constitution to vote as we choose...

Its your wish that you get to tell me how to vote...


42 posted on 06/02/2012 4:27:42 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Charles Henrickson

As someone who was a live when Kennedy was president, it wasn’t nearly the issue you are making it out to be.
However, Kennedy believed in ONE God.
Romney not only believes in many gods he thinks he will be one as well.
I have said this before, it might be well for you to know mormonism before you dismiss it so lightly.
Romney is in the highest level possible (inner circle) of the SLC lds, as is his family since the beginning of mormonism.
As a side note, there really is a big difference between a plumber and president of the USA.


43 posted on 06/02/2012 4:32:31 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Charles Henrickson

And if Romney’s religious beliefs do not conflict with his duty to serve in accord with the Constitution, no problem
____________________________________________

Unfortunately Mormonism and the Constitution dont mix...

There is a conflict from the get go...

Mormonism “owns” the Founding Fathers...

all 56 were dead dunked into Mormonism as a reward for setting up America in accordance to the Mormon gods etc...

Mormonism is above the Constitution in Romney’s belief system...

and as a 15% temple Mormon he must choose his religion...

Who he is, his whole life and future is wrapped up in Mormonism not in America..

His allegience is to his “prophet” and not to the people of America, the “Gentiles” AKA “the whore of Babylon” ...

Charles you really must study Mormonism if you want to discuss what Romney believes...

Kennedy and Carter are apples and oranges to Romney...


44 posted on 06/02/2012 4:40:16 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Charles Henrickson; Tennessee Nana
We do not have a religious test for public office in this country. You may have, but that's you.

Per this posted Rasmussen poll from 5.5 years ago (late 2006) [see Election 2008: 43% Would Never Vote for Mormon Candidate (Rasmussen Poll)]: The Rasmussen Reports survey found that 35% say that a candidate's faith and religious beliefs are very important in their voting decision. Another 27% say faith and religious beliefs are somewhat important. Ninety-two percent (92%) of Evangelical Christian voters consider a candidate's faith and beliefs important. On the partisan front, 78% of Republicans say that a candidate's faith is an important consideration, a view shared by 55% of Democrats. However, there is also a significant divide on this topic within the Democratic Party. Among minority Democrats, 71% consider faith and religious beliefs an important consideration for voting. Just 44% of white Democrats agree.

So…what % of the following groups found that a candidate’s faith and religious beliefs are an important consideration for voting?
(1) Americans: 62%
(2) Evangelical Christians: 92%
(3) Republicans: 78%
(4) Democrats: 55% [still a majority]

So, are you accusing, Charles, 62% of Americans and 92% of Evangelicals of having "religious tests?"

Or is it just possible that Evangelicals integrate their faith more within ALL areas of life, and Lutherans -- who straddle the Evangelical/mainline line -- tend to compartmentalize their faith more? [A false "secular vs. sacred" division]

I mean, it's no wonder that the average Lutheran doesn't see himself/herself as part of the priesthood of all believers and the ministry. (That's for the "professional clergy.")

45 posted on 06/02/2012 7:04:26 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Charles Henrickson; Tennessee Nana; greyfoxx39
They made that same argument when Kennedy was running for president, that the Pope would be giving him orders. Didn't happen.

All we ask Charles is that people to be a bit more astute as to these candidates' other-worldly worldviews...

Let's take your JFK example:

(a) JFK was a CINO (Catholic in Name Only) who had mini-orgies in the White House. Mitt Romney is NOT a MINO (Mormon in Name Only).

As the daughter of an Lds bishop said: Mitt…held…offices of…Missionary, Missionary Zone Leader, assistant to…Mission President…,…Bishop and Stake President…You cannot attain the “calling”…to serve as Mormon Bishop or Stake President unless you are a thoroughly entrenched and obedient Mormon… Source: Tricia Erickson: 'An indoctrinated Mormon should never be elected as President'

(b) Certainly, you have to concede the contrasts of what Romney has sworn an oath to -- vs. whatever Kennedy publicly confessed to?

Romney has sworn the "The Law of Consecration Oath." He did this in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple).

We already know what this oath consisted of: "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."]

For commentaries to even begin to make such a baseless outlandish conclusion, it would need to be proven that Kennedy took some similar oath to the Vatican. (You can't)

Besides, (a) above kicks in...Kennedy had a surface religious commitment; can't make the same conclusion about what "puppet" Romney would be -- in being beholden to the Mormon "prophet."

46 posted on 06/02/2012 7:10:56 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mem when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Charles Henrickson; Elsie; svcw
...I have seen no evidence so far--in his governorship or in his campaign--that Romney would use the presidency to proselytize for Mormonism.

HUGE distinction 'tween a regional office and THE leader of the free world -- in terms of potential influence.

The SLC HQ wouldn't go all-out for a Congressmen or Gov elected -- because it's no huge "leap" of accomplishment.

The President on the other hand? (You bet)

Also, doesn't even matter what Romney would -- or wouldn't -- initiate on his own.

No Mormon is their "own man" when the Mormon "prophet" can manipulate him.

And for that, if you're going to continue to compare Salt Lake City to the Vatican, you'd have to come up with all kinds of quotes from the Vatican (since the U.S. came into being) to match what top Lds leaders have said below:

Lds Leader Chronological 'Prophet' or Fundamental # (or Other Title) Overlap Areas: Could the President of the U.S. become a 'puppet' to an Lds 'Prophet?' (The Lds Prophets -- in their own words)
John Taylor Lds 'Prophet' #3 “The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto…[so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours…and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862)
Orson Hyde President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875) “What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53)
Heber J. Grant Lds 'Prophet' #7 "Elder Marion G. Romney recalled the counsel of President Heber J. Grant: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray'" (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)." Cited in Official Lds publication Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 209 (1984)
Harold B. Lee Lds 'Prophet' #11 ...President Harold B. Lee said: 'We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, '...as if from mine own mouth...(D&C 21:4-5)...You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself..." Cited in official Lds publication Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I, p. 27 (1989)
Spencer Kimball Lds 'Prophet' #12 "President Spencer W. Kimball said: '...We deal with many things which are thought to be not so spiritual; but all things are spiritual with the Lord, and he expects us to listen, and to obey..." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1977, p. 8; or Ensign, May 1977, p. 7) Cited in official Lds publication Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983, p.12 (1983)
What about Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's father? Who was he in Lds hierarchy? (Title: 'President' - Top 3 of church as 2nd counselor to both #11 & #12 Lds 'prophets') "Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said: 'Following the living prophets is something that must be done in all seasons and circumstances. We must be like President Marion G. Romney, who humbly said, '..I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, and political life' (Conference Report, April 1941, p. 123). There are, or will be moments when prophetic declarations collide with our pride or our seeming personal interests...Do I believe in the living prophet even when he speaks on matters affecting me and my specialty directly? Or do I stop sustaining the prophet when his words fall in my territory? if the latter, the prophet is without honor in our country! (Things As They Really Are, p. 73). Cited in official Lds publication, Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, pp. 275-276 (1984)
Ezra Taft Benson Lds 'Prophet' #13 Benson speech given 2/26/80 @BYU. Summary: “…remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet…” (See excerpts re: 3 of 14 'fundamentals' below) Source: Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet
Benson (cont'd) Fundamental #5 5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (My Q: Ya hear that Mitt Romney?)
Benson (cont'd) Fundamental #9 9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. (My Q: Still listening, Mitt?)
Benson (cont'd) Fundamental #10 10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. (My Q: What say ye Mitt?)
B.H. Roberts LDS Historian and Seventy. Note: Roberts was an elected Democratic Congressman from Utah in 1898 -- but was NEVER seated by Congress because of grass roots uproar vs. Roberts, who took a THIRD simultaneous wife in the early 1890s. Grass roots America collected 7 MILLION signatures on 28 banners and presented them to Congress...in pre-mass media 1800s! “[T]he kingdom of God... is to be a POLITICAL INSTITUTION THAT SHALL HOLD SWAY OVER ALL THE EARTH; TO WHICH ALL OTHER GOVERNMENTS WILL BE SUBORDINATE AND BY WHICH THEY WILL BE DOMINATED.” The Rise and Fall of Nauvoo, 1900, p. 180
Mitt Romney as POTUS??? Aside from above prophetic impositions, why would Mitt not only honor what these 'prophets' have spoken, but what a future Lds 'prophet' may tell him to do? The Law of Consecration Oath Mitt Romney has sworn in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple): "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."]

47 posted on 06/02/2012 7:18:03 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Charles Henrickson

We do not have a religious test for public office in this country. You may have, but that’s you.
____________________________________________

Charles my religion is Christianity...

I thought yours was also...

However you just posted a vanity which contains informmation about your personal religious journey that is other than Christian...

So you may have another understanding of what the religious test for public office is all about...

My God came to die on a Cross and shed His blood there to set me free from the penalty of sin and to give me the freedom to choose and make my own decisions...

Which includes who I am going to vote for in secular elections...

and what I am going to base my choices on...

If I wish to use a religious test as a litmus qualification, there is nothing in the Constitution to stop me...

and everything in the Christian Bible to back up my choice if I narrow that choice down to a born again, Godly, Bible beliving Christian man or woman...


48 posted on 06/02/2012 7:30:47 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Charles Henrickson; svcw; Colofornian

I didnt add this link to #48

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2890855/posts


49 posted on 06/02/2012 7:34:39 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Tennessee Nana
Charles my religion is Christianity...I thought yours was also...However you just posted a vanity which contains informmation about your personal religious journey that is other than Christian.

"Other than Christian"??? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

50 posted on 06/02/2012 7:35:52 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
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